Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[iggymcfrack]

Kobe’s supporting cast from 05-07 is definitely one of the worst.

At PG, he had Smush Parker, who couldn’t make the team on the league worst Miami Heat the very next year he left LA.

Luke Walton/Devean George at SF is the definition of average. The equivalent level player today would be like Dorian Finney Smith.

Lamar Odom was good, but he was never an all star. A borderline all star.

Kwame is a decent post defender and nothing else. Can’t shoot, can’t post, can’t rim run, can’t block shots.

The team is just poorly constructed all around and doesn’t maximize Kobe. If you want max output from Kobe, surround him with 3&D players. Or start a big man who can run the PR with him. No one except George/Walton on that starting lineup can shoot. Kwame/Turiaf/Brian Cook were not rim runners. We saw what Kobe could do with Bynum or Gasol, he was extremely effective.

'05-'07 Lakers with Kobe on bench (regular season): -6.1
'05-'07 Lakers with Kobe on bench (postseason): +3.0
'05-'07 Lakers when Kobe misses games: 9-14 (.391)

'01-'03 Spurs with Duncan on bench (regular season): -2.5
'01-'03 Spurs with Duncan on bench (postseason): -19.3
'01-'03 Spurs when Duncan misses games: 0-1 (.000)

'02-'04 Wolves with KG on bench (regular season): -10.9
'02-'04 Wolves with KG on bench (postseason): -25.5
'02-'04 Wolves when KG misses games: 1-0 (1.000)

'06-'08 Heat with Wade on bench (regular season): -7.5
'06-'08 Heat with Wade on bench (postseason): -13.6
'06-'08 Heat when Wade misses games: 26-43 (.377)

'08-'10 Cavs with LeBron on bench (regular season): -6.7
'08-'10 Cavs with LeBron on bench (postseason): -10.8
'08-'10 Cavs when LeBron misses games: 1-13 (.071)

'09-'11 Mavs with Dirk on bench (regular season): -3.8
'09-'11 Mavs with Dirk on bench (postseason): -5.6
'09-'11 Mavs when Dirk misses games: 4-7 (.364)

'14-'16 Warriors with Curry on bench (regular season): -4.1
'14-'16 Warriors with Curry on bench (postseason): -2.9
'14-'16 Warriors when Curry misses games: 3-6 (.333)

'15-'17 Clippers with CP3 on bench (regular season): -6.3
'15-'17 Clippers with CP3 on bench (postseason): -5.7
'15-'17 Clippers when CP3 misses games: 11-18 (.379)

'15-'17 Thunder with Russ on bench (regular season): -4.1
'15-'17 Thunder with Russ on bench (postseason): -17.4
'15-'17 Thunder when Russ misses games: 6-12 (.333)

'17-'19 Pelicans with AD on bench (regular season): -6.7
'17-'19 Pelicans with AD on bench (postseason): -4.6
'17-'19 Pelicans when AD misses games: 14-26 (.350)

'23-'25 Nuggets with Jokic on bench (regular season): -8.8
'23-'25 Nuggets with Jokic on bench (postseason): -8.3
'23-'25 Nuggets when Jokic misses games: 11-17 (.393)

Did Kobe have a bad supporting cast from 2005-2007? Sure. Were they somehow uniquely bad in a way that other superstars haven't had to deal with? Absolutely not. Other stars have taken worse supporting casts and made deep playoff runs and even won championships. The problem with Kobe is instead of working with his teammates' limitations and trying to help them grow into the best versions of themselves, he instead used their weaknesses as an excuse to play an even more selfish playstyle than he had previously, and denigrated their skills in the media to justify himself. Kobe played next to a legitimate star in Lamar Odom and very good defensive talent up and down the roster. Instead of trying to make it work and win a title as the other top stars of his generation had done, he made the decision to eschew winning to chase individual glory.

[iggymcfrack]

he got years of additional all-defensive team selections due to pro media bias when he was well past being a defensive force.

Kobe certainly wasn't worthy of a number of those defensive team selections

Certainly Kobe didn't deserve any after about 03.

Well now - what we appear to have here is a group of three expert evaluators of NBA defense, who seem to feel they can evaluate player defense better than NBA head coaches of that time.

Well experts, how about the three of you huddle together and tell us this - the 7 seasons after 2002-03 that Bryant was named to the all-defensive 1st team, 2003-04 and 2005-06 to 2010-11, the Lakers as a team ranked 5th best in the league in defensive efficiency at 103.8 pts/100poss allowed. The only teams better defensively over those 7 seasons were San Antonio (100.9), Boston (102.3), Houston (102.8), and Chicago (102.9 pts/100poss allowed). Over that time 25 teams were worse defensively than the Lakers.

The only Lakers player named to the all-defensive team those 7 seasons was Bryant, and he was named all-defensive 1st team each of those 7 seasons. No other Laker was named all-defensive 1st team, nor even named to an all-defensive 2nd team those 7 years.

So if Bryant was not an excellent defender all that time worthy of those all-defensive team selections, just who on the Lakers was very good to excellent on defense such that the team as a whole was the 5th best defensive team over all that time?

Here's some help - the minutes played by key Lakers players over that time:

20630 Kobe Bryant
15884 Lamar Odom
10983 Derek Fisher
09357 Pau Gasol
08062 Andre Bynum
07696 Luke Walton
05585 Sasha Vujacic
05446 Jordan farmar
05230 Smush Parker
05015 Metta World Peace
03619 Kwame Brown
03493 Devean George
03404 Shannon Brown
03240 Vladimir Radmanovic
03065 Brian Cook
02825 Gary Payton
02706 Ronny Turiaf
02464 Shaq
02429 Trevor Ariza
17827 another 32 players

Those first 19 listed players accounted for 87% of the team's total minutes played over those 7 seasons.

So if Kobe Bryant was not an excellent defender all that time, who of the other 18 were such that that Laker's team was 5th best defensively in the league over that 7 year stretch?

Let's start by looking at Lamar Odom who played more time with Kobe than anyone else over that time period. Let's look at the lineups by year and see how the Lakers' defense performed with Odom and without Kobe and vice versa:

05/06: Odom on/Kobe off: 98.3 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 109.5 DRtg (Odom lineups 11.2 points better)
06/07: Odom on/Kobe off: 104.2 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 108.5 DRtg (Odom lineups 4.3 points better)
07/08: Odom on/Kobe off: 101.7 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 107.6 DRtg (Odom lineups 5.9 points better)
08/09: Odom on/Kobe off: 99.3 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 108.3 DRtg (Odom lineups 9.0 points better)
09/10: Odom on/Kobe off: 100.4 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 102.6 DRtg (Odom lineups 2.2 points better)
10/11: Odom on/Kobe off: 99.2 DRtg, Kobe on/Odom off: 102.0 DRtg (Odom lineups 2.8 points better)

So the defense was at least 2 points better with only Odom than with only Kobe each of those 7 seasons. With Odom and without Kobe, the average defensive rating was 100.5 which would actually make the Lakers the best defense in the entire league over that time. When Kobe played without Odom, the average defensive rating was 106.4 which would be within a point of league average. It seems like if anything Odom made otherwise average defensive teams elite while Kobe contributed little and picked up undeserved awards.

When you adjust for teammates, it becomes even more stark. By career age-adjusted DRAPM, Odom ranks 47th out of 2616 players defensively while Kobe ranks 2499th.

In the 2004 season, before Odom arrived, it was mostly Shaq and Karl Malone carrying the defense. Here are the stats for the 03/04 season:

Malone without Kobe: 95.4 DRtg
Kobe without Malone: 102.3 DRtg

Shaq without Kobe: 100.3 DRtg
Kobe without Shaq: 105.4 DRtg

The Malone defense with Kobe on the bench would rank 2nd in the league. The Shaq defense without Kobe would rank 7th. The Kobe defense without Malone would rank 12th while the Kobe defense without Shaq would be tied for 23rd.

[penbeast0]

Why are we age adjusting the DRAPM?

[Jaivl]

Why are we age adjusting the DRAPM?

Second that. Not like it would change the underlying point.

[penbeast0]

I was more curious than challenging. Does Age Adjusting change things? Does it matter that much? I haven't seen it used before to any significant degree.

[kcktiny]

Let's start by looking at Lamar Odom who played more time with Kobe

I notice how you conveniently left out the minutes played by Odom without Bryant on the floor.

Bryant played 18183 minutes, meaning he was on the floor 76% of the time for the Lakers in the regular season over those 6 seasons.

Odom played 15884 minutes, meaning he was on the floor 67% of the time for the Lakers in the regular season over those 6 seasons.

What you conveniently left out in your listing was the total minutes played by Odom when Bryant was not on the floor. Bryant was not on the floor for the Lakers for 24% of the team's total minutes played (5638 minutes) those 6 seasons. Was Odom on the floor all that time Bryant was not? I don't think so. Was he on the floor for only 1/2 of that time? If so that would be just 2819 minutes, or just 12% of the Lakers total minutes played over the 6 seasons.

Which means you would be arguing how the team was better defensively over just 12% of the time versus the 76% of the time when Bryant was on the floor.

Not only that, but considering that Bryant was the team's star player and by far highest scorer and opposing teams most likely played their starters when Bryant played (as opposed to when Odom played) and their reserves when he did not, how significant then is your data?

So before you claim these on/off stats are of import why don't you list the minutes Odom played without Bryant, and what percentage of that time the opponents played their reserves as opposed to their starters. We know Bryant did not play 24% of the team's total minutes played, and we know Odom did not play 33% of the Lakers total minutes played.

So of the quarter of time Bryant (5638 minutes) was not on the floor of the Lakers total minutes played (23821 minutes) what percentage of that time was Odom actually on the floor, and playing against opposing teams starters as opposed to their reserves?

When you adjust for teammates, it becomes even more stark. By career age-adjusted DRAPM, Odom ranks 47th out of 2616 players defensively while Kobe ranks 2499th.

Which goes to show just how completely useless your DRAPM is.

These 6 seasons Bryant received 232 votes for the all-defensive team, voted on by NBA head coaches. And remember the NBA coaches in 2005-06 were not the same group as the head coaches in 2010-11. Yet both groups of coaches voted Bryant to the all-defensive 1st team.

You know how many votes for the all-defensive team Lamar Odom got over those 6 seasons? Just two - only two votes over 6 years.

That's how much NBA coaches thought of Odom's defense.

Yet here you are 1.5 to 2 decades after the fact saying no, NBA head coaches got it all wrong, Odom was a far better defender than Bryant (47th vs. 2499th you claim) because your mathematical concoction says so.

I don't think so. Revisionist history based on scanty evidence.

[iggymcfrack]

Why are we age adjusting the DRAPM?

To be more fair to Kobe so his career DRAPM numbers aren’t hurt by his longevity in the career sample. I can go year by year on that too though with my favorite RAPM source for the period:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

(positive is good and negative is bad in this DRAPM)

2006: Odom 2.2, Kobe -1.2
2007: Odom 0.7, Kobe -0.5
2008: Odom 2.0, Kobe 0.5
2009: Odom 3.9, Kobe 0.4 (Odom is tied for 3rd in the entire NBA in DRAPM this season)
2010: Odom 3.1, Kobe 1.3
2011: Odom 1.7, Kobe -0.9

[iggymcfrack]

Let's start by looking at Lamar Odom who played more time with Kobe

I notice how you conveniently left out the minutes played by Odom without Bryant on the floor.

Bryant played 18183 minutes, meaning he was on the floor 76% of the time for the Lakers in the regular season over those 6 seasons.

Odom played 15884 minutes, meaning he was on the floor 67% of the time for the Lakers in the regular season over those 6 seasons.

What you conveniently left out in your listing was the total minutes played by Odom when Bryant was not on the floor. Bryant was not on the floor for the Lakers for 24% of the team's total minutes played (5638 minutes) those 6 seasons. Was Odom on the floor all that time Bryant was not? I don't think so. Was he on the floor for only 1/2 of that time? If so that would be just 2819 minutes, or just 12% of the Lakers total minutes played over the 6 seasons.

Which means you would be arguing how the team was better defensively over just 12% of the time versus the 76% of the time when Bryant was on the floor.

Here, you wanna know how much they played without each other?

Odom without Kobe
2006: 918 possessions
2007: 847 possessions
2008: 701 possessions
2009: 1066 possessions
2010: 1400 possessions
2011: 1482 possessions
Total: 6414 possessions

Kobe without Odom
2006: 1042 possessions
2007: 2695 possessions
2008: 1289 possessions
2009: 2406 possessions
2010: 1911 possessions
2011: 1860 possessions
Total: 11,203 possessions

Kobe played 5248 of the Lakers' 7198 possessions in 2011. So we basically have a full season worth of data of Odom without Kobe and 2 full seasons of data of Kobe without Odom. The sample is plenty robust.

Not only that, but considering that Bryant was the team's star player and by far highest scorer and opposing teams most likely played their starters when Bryant played (as opposed to when Odom played) and their reserves when he did not, how significant then is your data?

This is the whole point of the RAPM data which you also didn't like. It adjusts for who's on the floor at a given time. As you can see, that makes Kobe look even worse.

So before you claim these on/off stats are of import why don't you list the minutes Odom played without Bryant, and what percentage of that time the opponents played their reserves as opposed to their starters. We know Bryant did not play 24% of the team's total minutes played, and we know Odom did not play 33% of the Lakers total minutes played.

So of the quarter of time Bryant (5638 minutes) was not on the floor of the Lakers total minutes played (23821 minutes) what percentage of that time was Odom actually on the floor, and playing against opposing teams starters as opposed to their reserves?

When you adjust for teammates, it becomes even more stark. By career age-adjusted DRAPM, Odom ranks 47th out of 2616 players defensively while Kobe ranks 2499th.

Which goes to show just how completely useless your DRAPM is.

These 6 seasons Bryant received 232 votes for the all-defensive team, voted on by NBA head coaches. And remember the NBA coaches in 2005-06 were not the same group as the head coaches in 2010-11. Yet both groups of coaches voted Bryant to the all-defensive 1st team.

You know how many votes for the all-defensive team Lamar Odom got over those 6 seasons? Just two - only two votes over 6 years.

That's how much NBA coaches thought of Odom's defense.

Yet here you are 1.5 to 2 decades after the fact saying no, NBA head coaches got it all wrong, Odom was a far better defender than Bryant (47th vs. 2499th you claim) because your mathematical concoction says so.

I don't think so. Revisionist history based on scanty evidence.

WOW. You're really that stubborn. With data the coaches didn't have at the time, we can see that the Lakers were the best defense in the league when Odom was on the floor without Kobe over an entire season of data. We can also see that they were an average defense when Kobe was on the floor without Odom over 2 seasons of data. And after all that, you're still going to say that Kobe's the one who made the defense good because of what some assistant coaches put down in a throwaway ballot at the end of the season? That's an unbelievable level of stubbornness. If you're that stubborn, IDK that any data I can possibly provide will convince you.

[Cavsfansince84]

Here, you wanna know how much they played without each other?

Odom without Kobe
2006: 918 possessions
2007: 847 possessions
2008: 701 possessions
2009: 1066 possessions
2010: 1400 possessions
2011: 1482 possessions
Total: 6414 possessions

Kobe without Odom
2006: 1042 possessions
2007: 2695 possessions
2008: 1289 possessions
2009: 2406 possessions
2010: 1911 possessions
2011: 1860 possessions
Total: 11,203 possessions

Kobe played 5248 of the Lakers' 7198 possessions in 2011. So we basically have a full season worth of data of Odom without Kobe and 2 full seasons of data of Kobe without Odom. The sample is plenty robust.

Not only that, but considering that Bryant was the team's star player and by far highest scorer and opposing teams most likely played their starters when Bryant played (as opposed to when Odom played) and their reserves when he did not, how significant then is your data?

This is the whole point of the RAPM data which you also didn't like. It adjusts for who's on the floor at a given time. As you can see, that makes Kobe look even worse.

So before you claim these on/off stats are of import why don't you list the minutes Odom played without Bryant, and what percentage of that time the opponents played their reserves as opposed to their starters. We know Bryant did not play 24% of the team's total minutes played, and we know Odom did not play 33% of the Lakers total minutes played.

So of the quarter of time Bryant (5638 minutes) was not on the floor of the Lakers total minutes played (23821 minutes) what percentage of that time was Odom actually on the floor, and playing against opposing teams starters as opposed to their reserves?

When you adjust for teammates, it becomes even more stark. By career age-adjusted DRAPM, Odom ranks 47th out of 2616 players defensively while Kobe ranks 2499th.

Which goes to show just how completely useless your DRAPM is.

These 6 seasons Bryant received 232 votes for the all-defensive team, voted on by NBA head coaches. And remember the NBA coaches in 2005-06 were not the same group as the head coaches in 2010-11. Yet both groups of coaches voted Bryant to the all-defensive 1st team.

You know how many votes for the all-defensive team Lamar Odom got over those 6 seasons? Just two - only two votes over 6 years.

That's how much NBA coaches thought of Odom's defense.

Yet here you are 1.5 to 2 decades after the fact saying no, NBA head coaches got it all wrong, Odom was a far better defender than Bryant (47th vs. 2499th you claim) because your mathematical concoction says so.

I don't think so. Revisionist history based on scanty evidence.

WOW. You're really that stubborn. With data the coaches didn't have at the time, we can see that the Lakers were the best defense in the league when Odom was on the floor without Kobe over an entire season of data. We can also see that they were an average defense when Kobe was on the floor without Odom over 2 seasons of data. And after all that, you're still going to say that Kobe's the one who made the defense good because of what some assistant coaches put down in a throwaway ballot at the end of the season? That's an unbelievable level of stubbornness. If you're that stubborn, IDK that any data I can possibly provide will convince you.

What's weird to me about some of these Kobe arguments I see even on here are how people will swear up and down how objective they are on him and tell others that they don't know what they are talking about but it doesn't actually seem like they watched him much in this period if they want to talk about him being the best defensive player on any of those teams or that none of those guys he played with were definite + to ++ defenders(which I say with +++ being near dpoy caliber). Most of those guys were either neutral or + and some of them like Bynum, Odom and Metta being close to ++. Kobe imo was neutral at best from 05-07, maybe + in 08/09 and probably neutral in 2010 and by then he'd been to 2 straight finals, had numerous injuries and overtrained himself in the offseason so its just silly to think he was still a very good offensive player with anything left for defense.

[kcktiny]

Either stick with minutes played or possessions played.

Kobe played 5248 of the Lakers' 7198 possessions in 2011

Fine. But your "without" data is useless unless you also post the team's total possessions for each season, and both Bryant's and Odom's total possessions for each season. Otherwise how else do you know the total time (minutes or possessions) each was on the floor versus the other, whether together or separately? List the Lakers total possessions each of the 6 seasons, and Bryant's and Odom's total possessions each season, and then one can make sense of your "without" data.

So we basically have a full season worth of data of Odom without Kobe

The Lakers played 23821 minutes per 5 players over the 6 years (23821 x 5 = 119105 total minutes). Odom played 15884 minutes, was on the floor 67% of the time (15884/23821).

You are saying Odom was on the floor without Bryant for a full season (estimate of 23821 x 1/6 = 3970 minutes). So that means Odom was on the floor without Bryant for 3970 minutes, but on the floor with Bryant for 15884 - 3970 = 11914 minutes. So Odom was on the floor with Bryant for 75% of his total minutes played (11914/15884), and on the floor without Bryant for 25% of his minutes played. That sound right?

But based on what happened against opposing teams primarily reserve players when Bryant was not on the floor but Odom was on the floor for 2/3 of that time Bryant was not (just 17% of the Lakers total playing time over 6 years, 3970/23821), you are claiming their defense was best in the league - and then assigning a great defensive number or value to Odom, even though that number came in just 25% of his minutes played.

That makes absolutely NO sense.

This is the whole point of the RAPM data which you also didn't like. It adjusts for who's on the floor at a given time.

It does no such thing. This is complete nonsense.

RAPM is a rating system, correct? So how do you calculate a player's RAPM without knowing the RAPM of the other players on the floor? How does it adjust for the player's on the floor to calculate a single player's RAPM without knowing the RAPM of the other 4 players on the floor? This is a chicken and the egg thing.

How do you calculate the first player RAPM? Clearly there are assumptions being made that are in fact not true. Which is why RAPM is so useless in a 1 year sampling, let alone a multi-year sampling.

This is similar to another poster claiming Alvin Robertson was not a great defender because of this plus/minus nonsense.

we can see that the Lakers were the best defense in the league when Odom was on the floor without Kobe

You are claiming this based on just 17% of the total Lakers-as-a-team minutes played, yet you have no idea of the opponents on the floor (their starters/reserves). In the time Bryant was not on the floor it's clear most of the opposing starters were not on the floor during that time as Bryant was the Lakers - by far - top scorer. So this so called best defense with Odom in a short period of time compared to the time Bryant played was played against primarily opposing teams reserve players.

You're really that stubborn.

You're really that naive to believe this RAPM nonsense.

With data the coaches didn't have at the time

What data might that be? The data RAPM is calculated with was available back then.

you're still going to say that Kobe's the one who made the defense good because of what some assistant coaches put down in a throwaway ballot at the end of the season?

And yet here you are still blaspheming the votes of NBA head coaches who watched these players on a daily basis to try to validate your plus/minus nonsense.

All-defensive team votes weren't taken seriously, nor all-NBA votes, nor MVP votes, nor DPOY votes, none of this was taken seriously because RAPM is the only true way to evaluate the NBA.

it doesn't actually seem like they watched him much in this period

Watched him over his entire career.

or that none of those guys he played with were definite + to ++ defenders(which I say with +++ being near dpoy caliber). Most of those guys were either neutral or + and some of them like Bynum, Odom and Metta being close to ++. Kobe imo was neutral at best from 05-07, maybe + in 08/09 and probably neutral in 2010

The reason I posted all the minutes played of the Lakers players for the years Bryant was named all-defensive 1st team after 2002-03 (2003-04, 2005-06 to 2010-11) was so anyone could use those to assign a defensive value to each and come up with the team average defensive rating. Since you seem to know who was average or + or ++ why don't you take a stab at it?

Over those 7 seasons the Lakers were 5th best defensively at 103.8 pts/100poss allowed. The range was 100.9 to 109.1 pts/100poss allowed, the average 105.5 pts/100poss allowed. If Bryant was just an average defender all that time, then assign his value at 105.5, he played 15% of the team's total minutes played, and that would mean the entire rest of the team over that time would have had to play a defense of 103.5 pts/100poss allowed, meaning most of the other Lakers high minutes players would have to have been better defenders than Bryant, players like Luke Walton, Sasha Vucevic, Smush Parker, Jordan Farmer, etc.

So have at it.

[iggymcfrack]

Either stick with minutes played or possessions played.

Kobe played 5248 of the Lakers' 7198 possessions in 2011

Fine. But your "without" data is useless unless you also post the team's total possessions for each season, and both Bryant's and Odom's total possessions for each season. Otherwise how else do you know the total time (minutes or possessions) each was on the floor versus the other, whether together or separately? List the Lakers total possessions each of the 6 seasons, and Bryant's and Odom's total possessions each season, and then one can make sense of your "without" data.

So we basically have a full season worth of data of Odom without Kobe

The Lakers played 23821 minutes per 5 players over the 6 years (23821 x 5 = 119105 total minutes). Odom played 15884 minutes, was on the floor 67% of the time (15884/23821).

You are saying Odom was on the floor without Bryant for a full season (estimate of 23821 x 1/6 = 3970 minutes). So that means Odom was on the floor without Bryant for 3970 minutes, but on the floor with Bryant for 15884 - 3970 = 11914 minutes. So Odom was on the floor with Bryant for 75% of his total minutes played (11914/15884), and on the floor without Bryant for 25% of his minutes played. That sound right?

But based on what happened against opposing teams primarily reserve players when Bryant was not on the floor but Odom was on the floor for 2/3 of that time Bryant was not (just 17% of the Lakers total playing time over 6 years, 3970/23821), you are claiming their defense was best in the league - and then assigning a great defensive number or value to Odom, even though that number came in just 25% of his minutes played.

That makes absolutely NO sense.

This is the whole point of the RAPM data which you also didn't like. It adjusts for who's on the floor at a given time.

It does no such thing. This is complete nonsense.

RAPM is a rating system, correct? So how do you calculate a player's RAPM without knowing the RAPM of the other players on the floor? How does it adjust for the player's on the floor to calculate a single player's RAPM without knowing the RAPM of the other 4 players on the floor? This is a chicken and the egg thing.

How do you calculate the first player RAPM? Clearly there are assumptions being made that are in fact not true. Which is why RAPM is so useless in a 1 year sampling, let alone a multi-year sampling.

This is similar to another poster claiming Alvin Robertson was not a great defender because of this plus/minus nonsense.

we can see that the Lakers were the best defense in the league when Odom was on the floor without Kobe

You are claiming this based on just 17% of the total Lakers-as-a-team minutes played, yet you have no idea of the opponents on the floor (their starters/reserves). In the time Bryant was not on the floor it's clear most of the opposing starters were not on the floor during that time as Bryant was the Lakers - by far - top scorer. So this so called best defense with Odom in a short period of time compared to the time Bryant played was played against primarily opposing teams reserve players.

You're really that stubborn.

You're really that naive to believe this RAPM nonsense.

With data the coaches didn't have at the time

What data might that be? The data RAPM is calculated with was available back then.

you're still going to say that Kobe's the one who made the defense good because of what some assistant coaches put down in a throwaway ballot at the end of the season?

And yet here you are still blaspheming the votes of NBA head coaches who watched these players on a daily basis to try to validate your plus/minus nonsense.

All-defensive team votes weren't taken seriously, nor all-NBA votes, nor MVP votes, nor DPOY votes, none of this was taken seriously because RAPM is the only true way to evaluate the NBA.

it doesn't actually seem like they watched him much in this period

Watched him over his entire career.

or that none of those guys he played with were definite + to ++ defenders(which I say with +++ being near dpoy caliber). Most of those guys were either neutral or + and some of them like Bynum, Odom and Metta being close to ++. Kobe imo was neutral at best from 05-07, maybe + in 08/09 and probably neutral in 2010

The reason I posted all the minutes played of the Lakers players for the years Bryant was named all-defensive 1st team after 2002-03 (2003-04, 2005-06 to 2010-11) was so anyone could use those to assign a defensive value to each and come up with the team average defensive rating. Since you seem to know who was average or + or ++ why don't you take a stab at it?

Over those 7 seasons the Lakers were 5th best defensively at 103.8 pts/100poss allowed. The range was 100.9 to 109.1 pts/100poss allowed, the average 105.5 pts/100poss allowed. If Bryant was just an average defender all that time, then assign his value at 105.5, he played 15% of the team's total minutes played, and that would mean the entire rest of the team over that time would have had to play a defense of 103.5 pts/100poss allowed, meaning most of the other Lakers high minutes players would have to have been better defenders than Bryant, players like Luke Walton, Sasha Vucevic, Smush Parker, Jordan Farmer, etc.

So have at it.

I feel like at this point, the requests for additional data are getting a little ridiculous. I gave you the number of possessions in a typical season. If you need to know exactly how many possessions are in each season or you have other details you wanna look at, this is the site. So have at it:

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/team/14/lineups?season=2010#tab-four_factors

This will take you to the lineups page for the Lakers. From there, you can change seasons, getting comprehensive numbers for each one and see how they change as certain players are on and off the floor. I'll tell you ahead of time, I did look at the players who played the next most minutes with Kobe and it seemed like for Fisher, Gasol, and Bynum, the Lakers generally played a little better defense with them on the floor and Kobe off than they did the other way around although those were much closer and would change some by the year. It wasn't an avalanche like it was with Odom.

[kcktiny]

It wasn't an avalanche like it was with Odom.

Geez, what are you missing dude?? Odom over 6 seasons played 75% of his minutes WITH Kobe Bryant.

But you are trying to say Odom was a much better defender than Bryant because of how the team (not him mind you, but the team) played defense in 2/3 of the team's remaining minutes (just 17% of the team's total minutes played over 6 seasons) when Bryant was not on the floor, just 25% of Odom's total minutes played? Playing against primarily the opposing teams reserves, not their starters?

Are you serious? Talk about not passing the smell test.

Kobe imo was neutral at best from 05-07, maybe + in 08/09 and probably neutral in 2010 and by then he'd been to 2 straight finals, had numerous injuries and overtrained himself in the offseason so its just silly to think he was still a very good offensive player with anything left for defense.

Clueless.

So near the end of his 7 years of being named all-defensive 1st team after 2002-03, Bryant you say was "...overtrained, had numerous injuries, and couldn't play defense because he was good on offense?...".

Yet from 2008-09 to 2010-11, 3 seasons, the Lakers were 3rd best in the league in defensive efficiency at 103.3 pts/100poss allowed. Only 2 teams were better defensively (Boston/Orlando). 27 teams were worse defensively.

You know who else was on that team in 2008-09 nd 2009-10? Metta World Peace (Ron Artest), who was named to an all-defensive team in 2002-03, 2003-04, 2005-06, and 2008-09.

But not in either 2009-10 or 2010-11 when on the Lakers. The NBA head coaches those two years that coached against those Lakers were more impressed with the defense of Bryant that the defense of World Peace, with 67 votes to the all-defensive team for Bryant compared to just 18 votes for World Peace. Even though World Peace had been named to 4 previous all-defensive teams. Not even close.

Bryant was named all-defensive 1st team each of those 3 seasons - no other Lakers player was named to the all-defensive team those years, and Bryant lead them in minutes played over that time, on the team that was 3rd best defensively in the league among the 30 NBA teams.

[Primedeion]

Best postseason/player performer on four Finals teams and three championship teams including the best postseason team in history (01), one of the better non-champion teams in modern history (08), and one of the dozenish best teams ever (09). Far and away the best player on a team that went to three straight Finals and won multiple titles. Top five scorer OAT. Top ten offensive player OAT by peak and career. One of the five most skilled players in history.

GOAT level offensive peak (06). Best player in the league at his peak. Anchored the #1 offense in his best season. Legit all-defense guard in a bunch of seasons (00, 01, 03, 08, 09, 10). Elite impact throughout his prime while playing a totally non heliocentric role on the best passing teams in the league. Top 12-15 peak OAT. Top ten prime OAT (01-10). Amazing longevity (doesn't matter as much, but still plenty relevant).

Give this resume to literally any player and they'd be consensus top ten all-time, but haters gonna hate.

I totally agree, any player with this resume would definitely be top 10, probably higher than that even.

However Kobe certainly doesn't have that resume, nor does any player I know of.

He absolutely has that resume, buddy.

[iggymcfrack]

Best postseason/player performer on four Finals teams and three championship teams including the best postseason team in history (01), one of the better non-champion teams in modern history (08), and one of the dozenish best teams ever (09). Far and away the best player on a team that went to three straight Finals and won multiple titles. Top five scorer OAT. Top ten offensive player OAT by peak and career. One of the five most skilled players in history.

GOAT level offensive peak (06). Best player in the league at his peak. Anchored the #1 offense in his best season. Legit all-defense guard in a bunch of seasons (00, 01, 03, 08, 09, 10). Elite impact throughout his prime while playing a totally non heliocentric role on the best passing teams in the league. Top 12-15 peak OAT. Top ten prime OAT (01-10). Amazing longevity (doesn't matter as much, but still plenty relevant).

Give this resume to literally any player and they'd be consensus top ten all-time, but haters gonna hate.

I totally agree, any player with this resume would definitely be top 10, probably higher than that even.

However Kobe certainly doesn't have that resume, nor does any player I know of.

He absolutely has that resume, buddy.

Not even close. The 2009 team not only isn’t one of the best dozenish teams ever. It’s outside the top 70 by SRS and they got taken to 7 by a Houston team missing T-Mac for the whole series and Yao for half the series.

Thinking Basketball rated Kobe the 8th best scorer of all-time, not top 5, and I thought that was actually a spot too high as they have him ahead of Steph who had better efficiency and volume.

His offensive peak in 2006 not only isn’t GOAT level, it’s behind both Dirk and LeBron for the season by box stats. He did have elite offensive impact numbers, but he only managed that by having one of the worst defensive seasons of all-time. I know the assistant coaches still voted him first team all-defense, but they obviously didn’t watch him because he didn’t try all season. It was worse than any Trae or Harden season on defense.

He was not only not the best player in the league at his peak, he was never even top 2. The only year he was close to top of the league (2008), he was still clearly behind KG (some of the best impact stats of all-time) and LeBron (better box and impact stats in regular season and postseason).

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around. In his peak years, the best they did was 3rd in regular season and 4th in postseason. Was never close to deserving all-defense. 2010 was the only season his impact stats were even good defensively and he was maybe 8th best guard on D at best that year.

His peak was rated 9th just for the last 25 years by Thinking Basketball which is again absurdly high. In our project on the PC forum, he looks likely to go 11th or 12th over that period. Personally, I feel like he should be 13th to 16th. That doesn’t include elite players from before 2000 such as Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Dr. J, Oscar, West, Robinson, or Malone who all have better peaks than Kobe as well.

[Primedeion]

I totally agree, any player with this resume would definitely be top 10, probably higher than that even.

However Kobe certainly doesn't have that resume, nor does any player I know of.

He absolutely has that resume, buddy.

Not even close. The 2009 team not only isn’t one of the best dozenish teams ever. It’s outside the top 70 by SRS and they got taken to 7 by a Houston team missing T-Mac for the whole series and Yao for half the series.

Thinking Basketball rated Kobe the 8th best scorer of all-time, not top 5, and I thought that was actually a spot too high as they have him ahead of Steph who had better efficiency and volume.

His offensive peak in 2006 not only isn’t GOAT level, it’s behind both Dirk and LeBron for the season by box stats. He did have elite offensive impact numbers, but he only managed that by having one of the worst defensive seasons of all-time. I know the assistant coaches still voted him first team all-defense, but they obviously didn’t watch him because he didn’t try all season. It was worse than any Trae or Harden season on defense.

He was not only not the best player in the league at his peak, he was never even top 2. The only year he was close to top of the league (2008), he was still clearly behind KG (some of the best impact stats of all-time) and LeBron (better box and impact stats in regular season and postseason).

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around. In his peak years, the best they did was 3rd in regular season and 4th in postseason. Was never close to deserving all-defense. 2010 was the only season his impact stats were even good defensively and he was maybe 8th best guard on D at best that year.

His peak was rated 9th just for the last 25 years by Thinking Basketball which is again absurdly high. In our project on the PC forum, he looks likely to go 11th or 12th over that period. Personally, I feel like he should be 13th to 16th. That doesn’t include elite players from before 2000 such as Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Dr. J, Oscar, West, Robinson, or Malone who all have better peaks than Kobe as well.

Nonsense. That's easily his resume. The 09 Lakers are a 66 win title team with a full-strength SRS of +9, which is among the highest full-strength SRS marks EVER. They destroyed the Rockets (+8.2 net rating), and grade out as one of the dozenish best teams ever by the advanced team metrics:

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241




That *full strength* SRS tops teams like the 08 Celtics/97 Jazz/89 Pistons/90 Pistons/85 Lakers/82 Lakers/84 Celtics/98 Bulls/99 Spurs/07 Spurs/73 Knicks/96 Sonics etc etc. It's tied with the 83 Sixers.

2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0
The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it
The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

This is a list of championship teams that finished the post-season with a lower net rating (and often by a fairly significant gap):

19 Raptors/15 Warriors/13 MIA/12 MIA/11 DAL/10 LAL/08 Celtics/07 SAS/06 MIA/05 SAS/04 Pistons/03 Spurs/02 Lakers/00 Lakers/99 Spurs/95 Rockets/94 Rockets/93 Bulls/92 Bulls/90 Pistons/89 Pistons/88 Lakers/87 Lakers/84 Celtics/83 Sixers/82 Lakers/81 Celtics/80 Lakers/79 Sonics/77 Blazers/76 BOS/75 GS/74 BOS/73 Knicks/72 LAL/70 NYK/69 BOS.

Their +12.5 net post-season rating tops the vast majority of championship teams over the last fifty years.

They finished the post-season with an adjusted playoff SRS of +12.7 (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/)

^That's higher than the 15 Warriors/15 Bulls/85 Lakers/87 Lakers/08 Celtics/97 Bulls/02 Lakers/90 Pistons/04 Pistons, etc

They finished the post-season with a raw playoff SRS of +11.1

^That's higher than the 92 Bulls/15 Warriors/98 Bulls/08 Celtics/02 Lakers/97 Bulls/89+90 Pistons/99 Spurs, etc

This includes regular season and post-season.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/

Top composite ELO ratings in history:
96 Bulls: +1853
15 Warriors: +1822
86 Celtics; +1816

97 Bulls: +1811
09 Lakers: +1790

^The 09 Lakers fifth All-TIME in peak ELO. That's higher than the 98 Bulls/89 Pistons/91 Bulls/92 Bulls/00 Lakers/01 Lakers/83 Sixers/97 Jazz/14 Spurs/99 Spurs/87 Lakers, etc

Top END ELO ratings in history:
96 Bulls: +1823
15 Warriors: +1822
97 Bulls: +1802
86 Celtics: +1801
09 Lakers : +1790

^The 09 Lakers fifth ALL-TIME in END ELO. That's higher than the 91 Bulls/01 Lakers/14 Spurs/85 Lakers/92 Bulls/99 Spurs/97 Jazz/87 Lakers/83 Sixers/02 Lakers, etc

*Data outdated but they're still among the absolute best if you adjust to present day

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) tops every trio outside of peak GS.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZyoOeGXMAAKlNp?format=jpg&name=900x900

His 06 season is easily GOAT level on offense. He posted the offensive on off EVER recorded, and ranked #1 offensive PI RAPM, #1 in single season NPI RAPM, #1 OEPM, #1 in offensive RAPTOR +/-, #1 in offensive EPM, #1 in offensive SPI, #1 in offensive PIPM, #1 in offensive RPM, #1 in offensive APM, #1 in backpicks offensive BPM, #1 in luck adjusted offensive on/off, #1 all-time in offensive on/off (+21), #1 all-time in offensive on/off , #1 O-EPM, #1 O-xRAPM, #1 offensive Bayesian Box APM, #1 in intraocular’s offensive APM, #1 in offensive Bayesian Box Prior, #1 in Ben Taylor's offensive OBPM, #1 in Basketballdatabase one year ORAPM, #1 gotbuckets offensive APM,

He was at least as good as anybody in 08. Not only was he the best scorer and offensive player in the league, but he was also a clear All-defense level guard, and by far the best perimeter defender/primary Wing stopper on a top five defense. And his +/- portfolio tops every player in the league outside of KG, who played far fewer minutes and carried a lesser load:

:#2 in rapm (tied), #1 in APM (+11.6), #2 minute adjusted ramp, #1 minute adjusted RAPM (got buckets)#2 raptor war, #1 in total am points (tied), #1 aming all guards in intraocular’s defensive apm points, #1 in impredicable overall (rs+Ps)win probability added on court /off court difference, #2 rpm wins, #1 in overall wpa (rs+ps),#1 in postseason wpa, #1 in postseason kWPA, #1 in SP1 wins, #2 in SP1 +/-, #1 in ps clutch win probability added, #1 among all non-celtics in total +/-, #1 among all non-celtics in +)- per game, #1 in Ben Taylor's postseason BPM

Cleaningtheglass.com has the 09 Lakers #1 in offensive rating. Again, you're wrong.

He's also a top five scorer ever and was the best postseason player on the best postseason team in history.

As far as peak, he's easily in the top fifteen all-time. None of those guys had better or more complete seasons than 09 Kobe.

Nice try tho.

[iggymcfrack]

Ok, maybe 2006 was an all-time season from a purely offensive perspective, but he only did it by making his teammates play 4-on-5 the entire season on defense. As an overall on/off season, it’s probably still behind all the other top 25 guys.

Also, it’s not the highest offensive on/off season. Kobe’s +19.2 from 05/06 is still well behind Jokic’s +22.4 last year and unlike Kobe, Jokic played both sides of the ball. Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

[Owly]

He absolutely has that resume, buddy.

Not even close. The 2009 team not only isn’t one of the best dozenish teams ever. It’s outside the top 70 by SRS and they got taken to 7 by a Houston team missing T-Mac for the whole series and Yao for half the series.

Thinking Basketball rated Kobe the 8th best scorer of all-time, not top 5, and I thought that was actually a spot too high as they have him ahead of Steph who had better efficiency and volume.

His offensive peak in 2006 not only isn’t GOAT level, it’s behind both Dirk and LeBron for the season by box stats. He did have elite offensive impact numbers, but he only managed that by having one of the worst defensive seasons of all-time. I know the assistant coaches still voted him first team all-defense, but they obviously didn’t watch him because he didn’t try all season. It was worse than any Trae or Harden season on defense.

He was not only not the best player in the league at his peak, he was never even top 2. The only year he was close to top of the league (2008), he was still clearly behind KG (some of the best impact stats of all-time) and LeBron (better box and impact stats in regular season and postseason).

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around. In his peak years, the best they did was 3rd in regular season and 4th in postseason. Was never close to deserving all-defense. 2010 was the only season his impact stats were even good defensively and he was maybe 8th best guard on D at best that year.

His peak was rated 9th just for the last 25 years by Thinking Basketball which is again absurdly high. In our project on the PC forum, he looks likely to go 11th or 12th over that period. Personally, I feel like he should be 13th to 16th. That doesn’t include elite players from before 2000 such as Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Dr. J, Oscar, West, Robinson, or Malone who all have better peaks than Kobe as well.

Nonsense. That's easily his resume. The 09 Lakers are a 66 win title team with a full-strength SRS of +9, which is among the highest full-strength SRS marks EVER. They destroyed the Rockets (+8.2 net rating), and grade out as one of the dozenish best teams ever by the advanced team metrics:

They rank #11 on Sansterre's extremely in-depth look of the best teams in history: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241




That *full strength* SRS tops teams like the 08 Celtics/97 Jazz/89 Pistons/90 Pistons/85 Lakers/82 Lakers/84 Celtics/98 Bulls/99 Spurs/07 Spurs/73 Knicks/96 Sonics etc etc. It's tied with the 83 Sixers.

2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0
The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/neil-warriors-2-0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/after-all-that-the-warriors-arent-even-the-second-best-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-are-in-the-goat-debate-but-they-blew-their-chance-to-end-it
The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/last-years-warriors-werent-the-best-ever-but-this-years-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

This is a list of championship teams that finished the post-season with a lower net rating (and often by a fairly significant gap):

19 Raptors/15 Warriors/13 MIA/12 MIA/11 DAL/10 LAL/08 Celtics/07 SAS/06 MIA/05 SAS/04 Pistons/03 Spurs/02 Lakers/00 Lakers/99 Spurs/95 Rockets/94 Rockets/93 Bulls/92 Bulls/90 Pistons/89 Pistons/88 Lakers/87 Lakers/84 Celtics/83 Sixers/82 Lakers/81 Celtics/80 Lakers/79 Sonics/77 Blazers/76 BOS/75 GS/74 BOS/73 Knicks/72 LAL/70 NYK/69 BOS.

Their +12.5 net post-season rating tops the vast majority of championship teams over the last fifty years.

They finished the post-season with an adjusted playoff SRS of +12.7 (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-year-of-the-warriors/)

^That's higher than the 15 Warriors/15 Bulls/85 Lakers/87 Lakers/08 Celtics/97 Bulls/02 Lakers/90 Pistons/04 Pistons, etc

They finished the post-season with a raw playoff SRS of +11.1

^That's higher than the 92 Bulls/15 Warriors/98 Bulls/08 Celtics/02 Lakers/97 Bulls/89+90 Pistons/99 Spurs, etc

This includes regular season and post-season.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/

Top composite ELO ratings in history:
96 Bulls: +1853
15 Warriors: +1822
86 Celtics; +1816

97 Bulls: +1811
09 Lakers: +1790

^The 09 Lakers fifth All-TIME in peak ELO. That's higher than the 98 Bulls/89 Pistons/91 Bulls/92 Bulls/00 Lakers/01 Lakers/83 Sixers/97 Jazz/14 Spurs/99 Spurs/87 Lakers, etc

Top END ELO ratings in history:
96 Bulls: +1823
15 Warriors: +1822
97 Bulls: +1802
86 Celtics: +1801
09 Lakers : +1790

^The 09 Lakers fifth ALL-TIME in END ELO. That's higher than the 91 Bulls/01 Lakers/14 Spurs/85 Lakers/92 Bulls/99 Spurs/97 Jazz/87 Lakers/83 Sixers/02 Lakers, etc

*Data outdated but they're still among the absolute best if you adjust to present day

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) tops every trio outside of peak GS.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GZyoOeGXMAAKlNp?format=jpg&name=900x900

His 06 season is easily GOAT level on offense. He posted the offensive on off EVER recorded, and ranked #1 offensive PI RAPM, #1 in single season NPI RAPM, #1 OEPM, #1 in offensive RAPTOR +/-, #1 in offensive EPM, #1 in offensive SPI, #1 in offensive PIPM, #1 in offensive RPM, #1 in offensive APM, #1 in backpicks offensive BPM, #1 in luck adjusted offensive on/off, #1 all-time in offensive on/off (+21), #1 all-time in offensive on/off , #1 O-EPM, #1 O-xRAPM, #1 offensive Bayesian Box APM, #1 in intraocular’s offensive APM, #1 in offensive Bayesian Box Prior, #1 in Ben Taylor's offensive OBPM, #1 in Basketballdatabase one year ORAPM, #1 gotbuckets offensive APM,

He was at least as good as anybody in 08. Not only was he the best scorer and offensive player in the league, but he was also a clear All-defense level guard, and by far the best perimeter defender/primary Wing stopper on a top five defense. And his +/- portfolio tops every player in the league outside of KG, who played far fewer minutes and carried a lesser load:

:#2 in rapm (tied), #1 in APM (+11.6), #2 minute adjusted ramp, #1 minute adjusted RAPM (got buckets)#2 raptor war, #1 in total am points (tied), #1 aming all guards in intraocular’s defensive apm points, #1 in impredicable overall (rs+Ps)win probability added on court /off court difference, #2 rpm wins, #1 in overall wpa (rs+ps),#1 in postseason wpa, #1 in postseason kWPA, #1 in SP1 wins, #2 in SP1 +/-, #1 in ps clutch win probability added, #1 among all non-celtics in total +/-, #1 among all non-celtics in +)- per game, #1 in Ben Taylor's postseason BPM

Cleaningtheglass.com has the 09 Lakers #1 in offensive rating. Again, you're wrong.

He's also a top five scorer ever and was the best postseason player on the best postseason team in history.

As far as peak, he's easily in the top fifteen all-time. None of those guys had better or more complete seasons than 09 Kobe.

Nice try tho.

Nonsense. That's easily his resume.

Very decisive dismissal. "Easily his resume" ... means what here? I would think it's relatively binary whether a thing is or isn't wholly accurate. "Easily" so, then doesn't seem to make much sense. I guess the point would be that the resume has been understated but then ... why would one do that.

At first glance the post in question regards primarily Kobe whilst this one concerns primarily the 2009 Lakers.

2009 seems largely tangential though at the margins I would note there seems to be a level of redundancy in variations on (or things largely built off) 2009 Lakers had a strong playoff run.

Referring to a 1985-2015 dataset as "all-time" (even with some ... to my eyes somewhat unclear where it's meant to apply - I think most or all of this team level data ... acknowledgement later of "data outdated") seems to be playing rather fast and loose.

That first data citing regarding full-strength SRS "which is among the highest full-strength SRS marks EVER"
a) places them 28th (which wouldn't particularly support "one of the dozenish best teams ever")
b) through the time of publication (not given - but last team noted is 2016 so likely many powerful 2017 and on teams excluded)
c) is at the margins unclear on the start date ... earliest team given is 1962 ... so it is unclear if, for instance, the 1950 Lakers are included
d) is amongst the listed "full strength teams" ... we don't know which teams have had different 70 or fewer game runs with different "this constitutes healthy" roster permutations have been tested.

Fwiw I would argue whilst there are advantages using an ELO to compare yearly incarnations of teams will unfairly inflate established teams and deflate newly great teams.

Kobe-Gasol-Odom lineups being great is great but ... doesn't really seem to relate to the original claims particularly.

There's a lot of impact numbers without links which I'm willing to believe are broadly accurate ... though a post above casts doubts on at least one where the issue could be it not being up to date ...
but then ... an earlier claim like "Legit all-defense guard in a bunch of seasons (... 08, 09)" isn't given a data deep dive.

"the best postseason team in history" doesn't cite a year so unclear if referring to a singular year or what but even the posted sources don't tend to put a particular Laker team first and given this wouldn't necessarily be required, (so far as I can tell) nor have they been comprehensively aggregated against those of rivals in such manner to shown that ... even if not first in a particular one ... aggregating them and after including more recent (and in some cases older) it becomes evident that they are such.

A number of claims in both posts aren't either entirely not amenable to falsification (e.g. "One of the five most skilled players in history") or fuzzy non-specific enough to unclear on the claim and therefore functionally so ("Top five scorer OAT").

[Primedeion]

Ok, maybe 2006 was an all-time season from a purely offensive perspective,

There's no "maybe". It was.

[One_and_Done]

Ok, maybe 2006 was an all-time season from a purely offensive perspective,

There's no "maybe". It was.

Only if you think offense is measured by ppg. Chris Paul and Steve Nash didn't score alot, but are much more impactful on offense than Kobe.

[Primedeion]

Also, it’s not the highest offensive on/off season.

Wrong. Again.

Pbp stats has Kobe at +20.56 and Jokic at +20.41. nbarapm has Kobe at +20.6 and Jokic at 20.4. Multiple sources have it as the highest offensive on/off ever recorded.