Pablo Torre: Kawhi/Clippers/Ballmer/Aspiration Thread (part 2)

[clippertown]

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any team could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

Game, set, match. I already can't compete against a mind reader, and now against someone that simply make **** up.

So you think that Kawhi seriously considered staying in Toronto? Ok then - I guess we are all allowed our opinion. Can you explain why a FMVP of a Champion squad would even consider leaving the team that could pay him the most by far? Has it ever happened before? We know he tried.

Kawhi was not happy to be sent to Toronto and if he did not sign with the Clippers, he would have most likely signed with the Lakers. This is common knowledge. Do you actually think that it was the Aspiration $ that was the deciding factor? He would have made more just staying in Canada.

Don't need to be a mind-reader to know that.

[Sixers in 4]

I already reviewed this provision when I answered all these questions in the other thread. Article 35 specifically deals with misconduct by a PLAYER. I didn’t see any similar appeal process for misconduct by an owner or team.

There are two sections one for appeal of the player and another for the team.

ARTICLE 35A MISCONDUCT OF PERSONS OTHER THAN PLAYERS, Page 46

Yea exactly. 35A is a separate article from 35, with its own enforcement procedures and no appeal process. Read it through and you will realize what I am saying.

Actually it could be worded either way either viewed as a section of 35 or another article.

[clippertown]

Other teams (reportedly at least Toronto and the Lakers) reported Dennis/Kawhi’s ask for extra benefits. They chose not to cheat while the Clippers did cheat. They’re guilty and need to be punished.

How do you know that the Lakers immediately rejected Uncle Dennis's demands? Maybe they just had sour grapes because Ballmer outbid them.

How do you know that Dennis did not approach other teams, received offers and still found Ballmer's deal to be the best. Why did Toronto or the Lakers not report this infraction to Silver themselves and file a complaint? Could it be because this is happening more than we think?

In fact, how do you know that Ballmer's offer was even the best offered? Kawhi had many other demands in addition to the Aspiration deal.

[inonba]

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any team could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

Game, set, match. I already can't compete against a mind reader, and now against someone that simply make **** up.

So you think that Kawhi seriously considered staying in Toronto? Ok then - I guess we are all allowed our opinion. Can you explain why a FMVP of a Champion squad would even consider leaving the team that could pay him the most by far? Has it ever happened before? We know he tried.

Kawhi was not happy to be sent to Toronto and if he did not sign with the Clippers, he would have most likely signed with the Lakers. This is common knowledge. Do you actually think that it was the Aspiration $ that was the deciding factor? He would have made more just staying in Canada.

Don't need to be a mind-reader to know that.

Ok, you can prove to everyone right now you aren't making **** up by providing a single source, report, video of Kawhi publicly hating being in Toronto. If you can, I'll delete my realgm account and never post here again. If you don't come back with receipts, I expect you to do the same. You're allowed to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

[xAIRNESSx]

Kawhi was always going to leave but he never publicly hated Toronto.

He was a true professional and never openly complained. He even downplayed the winter.

[inonba]

Any guesses to what Pablo's next podcast will reveal?

More KL2 LLCs? KL2 Private Jet LLC, KL2 Mansion, KL2 Clippers Shares perhaps?

Any reason to doubt the no show endorsement was the only demand Ballmer fulfilled?

[inonba]

Kawhi was always going to leave but he never publicly hated Toronto.

He was a true professional about it and never openly complained. He even downplayed the winter.

Exactly. Even if he absolutely hated playing in Toronto, he wouldn't be dumb enough to admit it in public as he was using staying in Toronto as leverage to get the Clippers to up the price.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

No. I do not dispute that Kawhi was promised (not actually fully paid) a sum of $48M for a no-show job that was intentionally hidden due to its obvious breach of the current CBA. I never have disputed that fact (not yet proven, but we all know the truth).

I dispute that the Joe Smith saga and the Kawhi saga are the same beast. In the former, a team was able to sign additional players to the squad because of a hidden back-door deal for a player that signed well below his market value. In the latter, the team received zero cap benefit as the player signed was already being paid the max (his full market value). This is a situation where a team offered an illegal sponsorship deal to a player in order to incentivize them to sign but received no cap-benefit and could not sign any additional players with that illegally gained space.

They may sound like the same situation, but they are not.

You are correct. One was a scheme used to sign a role player while the other was a scheme designed to sign a superstar player. Why anyone would think the scheme to sign the role player should carry the heavier penalty is beyond me, so please enlighten us, but Clippers just decided to pay Kawhi extra when they didn't have to is the heart of the argument.

Again, what punishment do you think is enough of a deterrent so other teams don't start setting up shell companies ?

I agree that the penalty should be proportionate to the Joe Smith penalty, but if I remember correctly, at the time Joe Smith was viewed as a prospect with a ton of potential, well beyond a mere role player.

you don't remember that correctly.

[nomansland]

You are correct. One was a scheme used to sign a role player while the other was a scheme designed to sign a superstar player. Why anyone would think the scheme to sign the role player should carry the heavier penalty is beyond me, so please enlighten us, but Clippers just decided to pay Kawhi extra when they didn't have to is the heart of the argument.

Again, what punishment do you think is enough of a deterrent so other teams don't start setting up shell companies ?

I agree that the penalty should be proportionate to the Joe Smith penalty, but if I remember correctly, at the time Joe Smith was viewed as a prospect with a ton of potential, well beyond a mere role player.

you don't remember that correctly.

I sort of did. College player of the year, #1 draft pick, 3rd in ROY voting, all-rookie team.

By the time he got to Minnesota his numbers weren't outstanding, but he was still pretty solid. I'm sure Minnesota saw a lot of upside keeping him on the team.

[jscott]

Other teams (reportedly at least Toronto and the Lakers) reported Dennis/Kawhi’s ask for extra benefits. They chose not to cheat while the Clippers did cheat. They’re guilty and need to be punished.

How do you know that the Lakers immediately rejected Uncle Dennis's demands? Maybe they just had sour grapes because Ballmer outbid them.

How do you know that Dennis did not approach other teams, received offers and still found Ballmer's deal to be the best. Why did Toronto or the Lakers not report this infraction to Silver themselves and file a complaint? Could it be because this is happening more than we think?

In fact, how do you know that Ballmer's offer was even the best offered? Kawhi had many other demands in addition to the Aspiration deal.

Lakers and Raptors did report the infraction to the NBA/Silver.

[xinxin]

I think this board is drastically overrating how much people care about this. I don't think Clippers fans are booing Kawhi, I don't think fans of other teams are booing him any more than normal. I don't think other players on the Clippers care at all, Kawhi's always been pretty distant from his teammates. I think the like Top 10% most engaged fans (the ones that listen to a bunch of NBA podcasts and/or post on an old-school internet forum like this) really care about this story, but the majority of fans really don't tbh.

I can assure you Lakers fans will boo Kawhi more than usual….

Think LeBron after The Decision, at the very least.


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[Ssj16]

I highly doubt the NBA will issue a pre-emptive suspension.

Also, I doubt his teammates care at all- they probably will just be happy if he is available to play and is healthy.

It would be hard to envision the NBAPA agreeing to him being suspended without pay prior to the investigation being completed.

Suspending him with pay would just do kawhi a favor

contrary to popular belief- he would rather play basketball. He doesn't just sit out for fun.

Kawhi sure has a funny way of showing that he really wants to play ball.

[DOT]

I agree that the penalty should be proportionate to the Joe Smith penalty, but if I remember correctly, at the time Joe Smith was viewed as a prospect with a ton of potential, well beyond a mere role player.

you don't remember that correctly.

I sort of did. College player of the year, #1 draft pick, 3rd in ROY voting, all-rookie team.

By the time he got to Minnesota his numbers weren't outstanding, but he was still pretty solid. I'm sure Minnesota saw a lot of upside keeping him on the team.

It's also different because in Smith's case, he wasn't being paid any extra, he just had an agreement that if he signed for less, he would get more later within what could be offered to him under the cap due to them later having his Bird rights

It wasn't the money that was the issue, it was the agreement, everything they did on paper was technically legal in regards to cap circumvention

Kawhi was getting paid under the table, he was getting more from the team than was legally allowed under the CBA.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I agree that the penalty should be proportionate to the Joe Smith penalty, but if I remember correctly, at the time Joe Smith was viewed as a prospect with a ton of potential, well beyond a mere role player.

you don't remember that correctly.

I sort of did. College player of the year, #1 draft pick, 3rd in ROY voting, all-rookie team.

By the time he got to Minnesota his numbers weren't outstanding, but he was still pretty solid. I'm sure Minnesota saw a lot of upside keeping him on the team.

When all that mess came out, the comments were something like "they did all that for... Joe Smith?!?".
In 1998 maybe there were people still holding hope, but definitely not "tons of potential" given how he accepted a minimum.
in 2000 he was seen as a role player at best.

[levon]

Kawhi was always going to leave but he never publicly hated Toronto.

He was a true professional and never openly complained. He even downplayed the winter.

To be fair he never openly does anything.

[Roscoe Sheed]

It would be hard to envision the NBAPA agreeing to him being suspended without pay prior to the investigation being completed.

Suspending him with pay would just do kawhi a favor

contrary to popular belief- he would rather play basketball. He doesn't just sit out for fun.

Kawhi sure has a funny way of showing that he really wants to play ball.

he does- by rehabbing from serious knee injuries (torn ACL) and managing a degenerative knee condition. He could just retire you know.

[levon]

contrary to popular belief- he would rather play basketball. He doesn't just sit out for fun.

Kawhi sure has a funny way of showing that he really wants to play ball.

he does- by rehabbing from serious knee injuries (torn ACL) and managing a degenerative knee condition. He could just retire you know.

Where's the money in that?

[tamaraw08]

Absolutely delusional to say the Clippers did not circumvent the salary cap.

Circumvention of the salary cap is too broad of a term. Did the Clippers get any advantage, from a roster perspective, by giving Kawhi an illegal sponsorship deal? If Kawhi had signed for the MLE and then obtained $48M in under-the-table cash, I could agree but this is not what happened.

This was a sponsorship deal that allowed a player to receive more than the CBA allows, but it is not the traditional cap circumvention - at least it is not the same as the clear-cut cap circumvention that happened in Minnesota. I get that any payment not being factored in is a version of cap circumvention, but not all types of circumvention are the same and some are much worse than others. The Clipper roster would be identical regardless of this move. As such, the only team impacted was the Lakers (who probably made their own offer we don't know about).

The difference to me is clear, but since I am delusional, it's of little consequence.

Broad term, narrow? Traditional? non traditional blah blah blah,
let's define Circumvention.

the act of bypassing or going around something.



the act of avoiding, evading, or forestalling something, often by cleverness or deception.

It's almost like contesting whether a person committed a murder or not and the defendant would say, well murder is a very broad term because people die with different ways like theres homicide, there's felony murder, there's first and 2nd degree murder,
heck there is also a term called Manslaughter and it's not about about a Man's Laughter.

[tamaraw08]

Other teams (reportedly at least Toronto and the Lakers) reported Dennis/Kawhi’s ask for extra benefits. They chose not to cheat while the Clippers did cheat. They’re guilty and need to be punished.

How do you know that the Lakers immediately rejected Uncle Dennis's demands? Maybe they just had sour grapes because Ballmer outbid them.

How do you know that Dennis did not approach other teams, received offers and still found Ballmer's deal to be the best. Why did Toronto or the Lakers not report this infraction to Silver themselves and file a complaint? Could it be because this is happening more than we think?

In fact, how do you know that Ballmer's offer was even the best offered? Kawhi had many other demands in addition to the Aspiration deal.

Please explain exactly how can the Clippers outbid Toronto and the Lakers in Legal means?

[TheGeneral99]

None of this will happen. It's just not realistic. I get that Ballmer was caught operating a scam but the damage done is nowhere near the punishment you keep pushing. The Joe Smith issue helped Minnesota field a stronger team. The Kawhi issue is just that Kawhi got some free money without doing anything to deserve it. If he made a couple of adverts, the issue may disappear. The Clippers did not improve their strength as Kawhi had already signed a max by the time he engaged in this deal. Even if there was foreknowledge (likely but not yet proven), the punishment will be half of the Minnesota punishment. Kawhi was going to either the Clippers or Lakers. Had the deal not involved any BS, Kawhi would likely still be a Clipper.

There will be no lifetime bans for anybody - it won't even be proposed. No owner will risk his own rights in order to punish Ballmer.

I have seen absolutely zero about this outside of specific Basketball forums. Most casual fans don't even know what is going on. This is going to get buried and resolved internally. If Kawhi took a deal at less than max, the issue would be much bigger, but not this time.

The problem is you’re assuming that Kawhi signs with the Clippers without this back room deal. Signing it hurts other teams’ chances at signing him to a fair, agreed upon CBA allowable deal with another team. The other teams who could have signed him are at a disadvantage because they didn’t cheat.

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any owner could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

Show me where he "publicly hated Toronto."

Why did Paul George on his podcast confirm that there was almost a deal where he would've been sent to Toronto and Kawhi would have resigned?

We also know from sources Masai reportedly was not willing to give up Fred and Siakam for George and Westbrook.

"I was close to going to Toronto, like we were deciding to go to Toronto or the Clippers and Clippers ultimately gave the better package"

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