NBA Trade Thread #13

[HomoSapien]

KC said on the Gimme The Hot Sauce Podcast that the Bulls were involved in advanced trade talks with Ayo this off-season but that they didn't finalize. Also thinks that Coby is a trade candidate.

Unrelated, he believes Essengue is 2 years away and will spend over 15 games in the G-League. Apparently Dalen is a guy mentioned regularly as someone who has stood out in summer workouts.

[boozapalooza]

FVV out with acl all year.

Ayo?
Coby?

Surprised the boards not buzzing more on this. This presents a clear match with our surplus of PG’s and the Rockets need to win now. Couple of ideas come to mind that work in trade machine:

Coby and Jevon for Reed Sheppard and Josh Okogie/filler
- Rationale: This is similar to Caruso for Giddey. No picks involved. Reed didnt play last year so how can HOU count on him as their starting PG? Theyre in win now mode and trade a young prospect for an established guy.

Coby and Jevon for FVV and 2028/2030 1sts (or pick swaps)
- Rationale: Rockets lose nothing for 3 years and pick up the PG they need to win. We acquire 2 valuable picks down the road.

Coby is the closest PG available to what the Rockets had in FVV. He should be of interest to them even more than Ayo. Doesn’t require them taking on long term money and if it works they can resign him. Either way, between Reed and picks they have valuable pieces to offer.

[Tutupa]

FVV out with acl all year.

Ayo?
Coby?

Surprised the boards not buzzing more on this. This presents a clear match with our surplus of PG’s and the Rockets need to win now. Couple of ideas come to mind that work in trade machine:

Coby and Jevon for Reed Sheppard and Josh Okogie/filler
- Rationale: This is similar to Caruso for Giddey. No picks involved. Reed didnt play last year so how can HOU count on him as their starting PG? Theyre in win now mode and trade a young prospect for an established guy.

Coby and Jevon for FVV and 2028/2030 1sts (or pick swaps)
- Rationale: Rockets lose nothing for 3 years and pick up the PG they need to win. We acquire 2 valuable picks down the road.

Coby is the closest PG available to what the Rockets had in FVV. He should be of interest to them even more than Ayo. Doesn’t require them taking on long term money and if it works they can resign him. Either way, between Reed and picks they have valuable pieces to offer.

I agree with you. Most people are focusing on the fact that the Rockets can't sign anyone right now when the solution for them (if they want to go all in) is a making a trade. They have the pieces to make a win-now trade, the big question is whether they want or can use them.

I don´t think they´re ready to get rid of Sheppard yet. Their best option to maximize the roster is trading FVV so I like your proposal.

He is done this year and who knows if he will be any good next year (he´s picking his option for sure) coming from an ACL at 32-33, short as he is... He has just become a salary burden. I would gladly take him if the incentive is juicy enough. Instead of their own picks I would take the right to swap with Brooklyn 1st in 2027 and also the Suns 1st in 2027.

For me, this is the type of transaction we have to jump on with cap space for next year.

The tricky part here is that FVV Fred has an implied no-trade clause so he may block any transaction.

Apart from that, another trade I would love to make is for Jabari Smith. He has not fully developed for them and is increasingly losing importance in the starting five. But I would gladly take it as a our future center.

How about Coby + Portland pick for him?

[Infinity2152]

Coby is likely the absolute best tradeable piece we have. If/when we trade him we need to maximize it. Would target Jabari Smith over Reed Sheppard, offer Ayo. Ayo can be a starting NBA PG with defense. He's a PG, he's been playing out of position a lot with us. Not Van Fleet, but bigger, more athletic, better than anybody they have.

Would not do the Coby/Carter for Van Fleet and two firsts deal. Coby imo is worth 2 firsts and a decent player. A $25 mill dead money contract, you have to pay me to take that, at least a first, two if it's for two years. They're almost getting Coby for free.

I hope, if/when they trade Coby, it's to put the highest level player they can next to Giddey and Matas.

[MrSparkle]

Sucks for HOU, but they’re not moving a $50M/2Y ACL rehab for a good player without adding picks. OTOH Coby isn’t proven enough to net those juicy FRPs.

I think they’ll start by targeting Westbrook and Simmons…

[jnrjr79]

Coby is likely the absolute best tradeable piece we have. If/when we trade him we need to maximize it. Would target Jabari Smith over Reed Sheppard, offer Ayo. Ayo can be a starting NBA PG with defense. He's a PG, he's been playing out of position a lot with us. Not Van Fleet, but bigger, more athletic, better than anybody they have.

Would not do the Coby/Carter for Van Fleet and two firsts deal. Coby imo is worth 2 firsts and a decent player. A $25 mill dead money contract, you have to pay me to take that, at least a first, two if it's for two years. They're almost getting Coby for free.

I hope, if/when they trade Coby, it's to put the highest level player they can next to Giddey and Matas.

I think Coby might be worth two late/protected firsts, but probably not. Because he'll be a UFA and is in the last year of the deal, his trade value isn't going to be commensurate with his actual basketball ability.

[Infinity2152]

Coby is likely the absolute best tradeable piece we have. If/when we trade him we need to maximize it. Would target Jabari Smith over Reed Sheppard, offer Ayo. Ayo can be a starting NBA PG with defense. He's a PG, he's been playing out of position a lot with us. Not Van Fleet, but bigger, more athletic, better than anybody they have.

Would not do the Coby/Carter for Van Fleet and two firsts deal. Coby imo is worth 2 firsts and a decent player. A $25 mill dead money contract, you have to pay me to take that, at least a first, two if it's for two years. They're almost getting Coby for free.

I hope, if/when they trade Coby, it's to put the highest level player they can next to Giddey and Matas.

I think Coby might be worth two late/protected firsts, but probably not. Because he'll be a UFA and is in the last year of the deal, his trade value isn't going to be commensurate with his actual basketball ability.

Just like his being an upcoming free agent matters, other things matter too. This year counts for a lot of teams, like the Rockets who just added KD. That ups his value to that team. For the Bulls, doesn't make sense to take a low return for Coby, re-sign him in that case or keep looking for a better deal. Mikal Bridges was worth five first round picks to the right team at the right time.

Objectively, I doubt the 23rd pick in 2027 and the 25th pick in 2030 brings you anything close to Coby's value as a player. It's not like we have to trade him, so if/when we trade hm, we should deal with the team that will offer the most. Not the least.

Any team planning to bid on him summer 2026, this gives them a head start and a cheap first year. Lot of teams could easily match his $12 mill now and would have money in the summer to keep him. Lower risk financially.

My personal opinion, of course. I'm fine with trading Coby, just want us to get the best deal possible if we do.

[sco]

Coby is likely the absolute best tradeable piece we have. If/when we trade him we need to maximize it. Would target Jabari Smith over Reed Sheppard, offer Ayo. Ayo can be a starting NBA PG with defense. He's a PG, he's been playing out of position a lot with us. Not Van Fleet, but bigger, more athletic, better than anybody they have.

Would not do the Coby/Carter for Van Fleet and two firsts deal. Coby imo is worth 2 firsts and a decent player. A $25 mill dead money contract, you have to pay me to take that, at least a first, two if it's for two years. They're almost getting Coby for free.

I hope, if/when they trade Coby, it's to put the highest level player they can next to Giddey and Matas.

I think Coby might be worth two late/protected firsts, but probably not. Because he'll be a UFA and is in the last year of the deal, his trade value isn't going to be commensurate with his actual basketball ability.

Just like his being an upcoming free agent matters, other things matter too. This year counts for a lot of teams, like the Rockets who just added KD. That ups his value to that team. For the Bulls, doesn't make sense to take a low return for Coby, re-sign him in that case or keep looking for a better deal. Mikal Bridges was worth five first round picks to the right team at the right time.

Objectively, I doubt the 23rd pick in 2027 and the 25th pick in 2030 brings you anything close to Coby's value as a player. It's not like we have to trade him, so if/when we trade hm, we should deal with the team that will offer the most. Not the least.

Any team planning to bid on him summer 2026, this gives them a head start and a cheap first year. Lot of teams could easily match his $12 mill now and would have money in the summer to keep him. Lower risk financially.

Yeah, Coby is the type of player to include with picks/expirings if/when we take a swing on a true #1, should this year's version of Luka come available.

[jnrjr79]

Coby is likely the absolute best tradeable piece we have. If/when we trade him we need to maximize it. Would target Jabari Smith over Reed Sheppard, offer Ayo. Ayo can be a starting NBA PG with defense. He's a PG, he's been playing out of position a lot with us. Not Van Fleet, but bigger, more athletic, better than anybody they have.

Would not do the Coby/Carter for Van Fleet and two firsts deal. Coby imo is worth 2 firsts and a decent player. A $25 mill dead money contract, you have to pay me to take that, at least a first, two if it's for two years. They're almost getting Coby for free.

I hope, if/when they trade Coby, it's to put the highest level player they can next to Giddey and Matas.

I think Coby might be worth two late/protected firsts, but probably not. Because he'll be a UFA and is in the last year of the deal, his trade value isn't going to be commensurate with his actual basketball ability.

Just like his being an upcoming free agent matters, other things matter too. This year counts for a lot of teams, like the Rockets who just added KD. That ups his value to that team. For the Bulls, doesn't make sense to take a low return for Coby, re-sign him in that case or keep looking for a better deal. Mikal Bridges was worth five first round picks to the right team at the right time.

I never understand why people look at consensus historically terrible trades and then use those as a benchmark for future trades.

Do you think we'll get 5 1sts for Coby?

I agree Coby is worth more to a team that is going for it this year, but is there any team other than Houston that would realistically be in play? Transactions have more or less concluded for the offseason and Houston is in a unique spot given the late injury to FVV.

I'm not saying definitively that the Bulls won't get 2 firsts from some team, but it's likely to be a team like Houston where those 1sts don't necessarily project to be terribly high. That's ok with me! I'd still do that deal - I'm just talking about my own personal expectations for the price.

His price could go up, though, if he's averaging 25 PPG for half a season.

Objectively, I doubt the 23rd pick in 2027 and the 25th pick in 2030 brings you anything close to Coby's value as a player. It's not like we have to trade him, so if/when we trade hm, we should deal with the team that will offer the most. Not the least.

I agree that 2 picks in the 20s are unlikely to net you a Coby-level player.

I also agree the Bulls should trade him for the best offer. That seems uncontroversial (if you're open to trading him at all).

Any team planning to bid on him summer 2026, this gives them a head start and a cheap first year. Lot of teams could easily match his $12 mill now and would have money in the summer to keep him. Lower risk financially.

I do agree that it's probably easier to keep him in your building if you've had him for a year and he liked the experience. But you'll still have to bid against the handful of 2026 cap space teams (assuming they have interest in Coby), as I doubt Coby is going to offer a hometown discount to a team he's only been with for a year.

[Infinity2152]

I think Coby might be worth two late/protected firsts, but probably not. Because he'll be a UFA and is in the last year of the deal, his trade value isn't going to be commensurate with his actual basketball ability.

Just like his being an upcoming free agent matters, other things matter too. This year counts for a lot of teams, like the Rockets who just added KD. That ups his value to that team. For the Bulls, doesn't make sense to take a low return for Coby, re-sign him in that case or keep looking for a better deal. Mikal Bridges was worth five first round picks to the right team at the right time.

I never understand why people look at consensus historically terrible trades and then use those as a benchmark for future trades.

Do you think we'll get 5 1sts for Coby?

I agree Coby is worth more to a team that is going for it this year, but is there any team other than Houston that would realistically be in play? Transactions have more or less concluded for the offseason and Houston is in a unique spot given the late injury to FVV.

I'm not saying definitively that the Bulls won't get 2 firsts from some team, but it's likely to be a team like Houston where those 1sts don't necessarily project to be terribly high. That's ok with me! I'd still do that deal - I'm just talking about my own personal expectations for the price.

His price could go up, though, if he's averaging 25 PPG for half a season.

Objectively, I doubt the 23rd pick in 2027 and the 25th pick in 2030 brings you anything close to Coby's value as a player. It's not like we have to trade him, so if/when we trade hm, we should deal with the team that will offer the most. Not the least.

I agree that 2 picks in the 20s are unlikely to net you a Coby-level player.

I also agree the Bulls should trade him for the best offer. That seems uncontroversial (if you're open to trading him at all).

I do agree that it's probably easier to keep him in your building if you've had him for a year and he liked the experience. But you'll still have to bid against the handful of 2026 cap space teams (assuming they have interest in Coby), as I doubt Coby is going to offer a hometown discount to a team he's only been with for a year.

Bro, is two firsts anywhere near 5 firsts, lmao?? It's an example of a win now team paying a premium for a perceived need. Maybe the Rockets are the only team in that position, maybe there are more. Pacers possibly fit the bill, Nuggets certainly. Lakers might. Those are the types of teams I would be targeting if I'm using Coby to add assets instead of a star, and I'm asking for a lot. Again, there's no rush to trade Coby so we can look for the best deal (or leverage that win now team to the fullest).

And I agree he's not giving a discount to his new team. Half the time those deals happen the other team has already decided to pay the new contract, but again they get this first year for $12 mill. Even if they pay $30 mill the first year of his new contract, that's two years of Coby at effectively $42 mill. A team has a huge advantage re-signing their own free agent, they've built with the team, learned the city, the offense, found housing, especially if we trade him somewhere he wants to go. It's much easier for a lot of teams to trade $12 mill worth of contracts now and pay him next year.

I love Chicago, but being on the Bulls right now is probably not the dream location for most players.

[jnrjr79]

Just like his being an upcoming free agent matters, other things matter too. This year counts for a lot of teams, like the Rockets who just added KD. That ups his value to that team. For the Bulls, doesn't make sense to take a low return for Coby, re-sign him in that case or keep looking for a better deal. Mikal Bridges was worth five first round picks to the right team at the right time.

I never understand why people look at consensus historically terrible trades and then use those as a benchmark for future trades.

Do you think we'll get 5 1sts for Coby?

I agree Coby is worth more to a team that is going for it this year, but is there any team other than Houston that would realistically be in play? Transactions have more or less concluded for the offseason and Houston is in a unique spot given the late injury to FVV.

I'm not saying definitively that the Bulls won't get 2 firsts from some team, but it's likely to be a team like Houston where those 1sts don't necessarily project to be terribly high. That's ok with me! I'd still do that deal - I'm just talking about my own personal expectations for the price.

His price could go up, though, if he's averaging 25 PPG for half a season.

Objectively, I doubt the 23rd pick in 2027 and the 25th pick in 2030 brings you anything close to Coby's value as a player. It's not like we have to trade him, so if/when we trade hm, we should deal with the team that will offer the most. Not the least.

I do agree that it's probably easier to keep him in your building if you've had him for a year and he liked the experience. But you'll still have to bid against the handful of 2026 cap space teams (assuming they have interest in Coby), as I doubt Coby is going to offer a hometown discount to a team he's only been with for a year.

Bro, is two firsts anywhere near 5 firsts, lmao?? It's an example of a win now team paying a premium for a perceived need. Maybe the Rockets are the only team in that position, maybe there are more. Pacers possibly fit the bill, Nuggets certainly. Lakers might. Those are the types of teams I would be targeting if I'm using Coby to add assets instead of a star, and I'm asking for a lot. Again, there's no rush to trade Coby so we can look for the best deal (or leverage that win now team to the fullest).

Bro, if you didn't think the Bridges trade was an appropriate comp, why did you mention it?

Lakers: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Nuggets: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Pacers: they have firsts to trade, but I do not view them as a Coby suitor

The problem with most teams that are currently in "going for it" mode is that they've traded away most of their draft assets already to put together the teams they have. Houston and OKC are kind of the outliers there, off the top of my head.

[Infinity2152]

I never understand why people look at consensus historically terrible trades and then use those as a benchmark for future trades.

Do you think we'll get 5 1sts for Coby?

I agree Coby is worth more to a team that is going for it this year, but is there any team other than Houston that would realistically be in play? Transactions have more or less concluded for the offseason and Houston is in a unique spot given the late injury to FVV.

I'm not saying definitively that the Bulls won't get 2 firsts from some team, but it's likely to be a team like Houston where those 1sts don't necessarily project to be terribly high. That's ok with me! I'd still do that deal - I'm just talking about my own personal expectations for the price.

His price could go up, though, if he's averaging 25 PPG for half a season.



I do agree that it's probably easier to keep him in your building if you've had him for a year and he liked the experience. But you'll still have to bid against the handful of 2026 cap space teams (assuming they have interest in Coby), as I doubt Coby is going to offer a hometown discount to a team he's only been with for a year.

Bro, is two firsts anywhere near 5 firsts, lmao?? It's an example of a win now team paying a premium for a perceived need. Maybe the Rockets are the only team in that position, maybe there are more. Pacers possibly fit the bill, Nuggets certainly. Lakers might. Those are the types of teams I would be targeting if I'm using Coby to add assets instead of a star, and I'm asking for a lot. Again, there's no rush to trade Coby so we can look for the best deal (or leverage that win now team to the fullest).

Bro, if you didn't think the Bridges trade was an appropriate comp, why did you mention it?

Lakers: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Nuggets: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Pacers: they have firsts to trade, but I do not view them as a Coby suitor

The problem with most teams that are currently in "going for it" mode is that they've traded away most of their draft assets already to put together the teams they have. Houston and OKC are kind of the outliers there, off the top of my head.

It wasn't a direct comparison, it was an example of a win now team paying a premium. We're talking about 5 picks vs 2 picks. Teams make what seem to be crazy money and pick moves. I could literally do 10 more easily, Lillard trade both times, Luka trade, PG contract got $211 mill in 2024, Bradley Beal trade both times, Jeremi Grant 5yrs/$160 mill, hell Zac Lavine 5yrs/$215 mill, Quickley 5yrs/$162.5 mill. Jordan Poole 4yrs/$128 mill. OKC gave Chet Holgrem max and Caruso $20 mill to play part time off the bench., headscratcher. Most of these in the last few years. I hate when people talk in absolutes because it's not rare for teams to seemingly overpay for players, it's actually common. It happens all the time.

The trick is once in a while, try to be the team that really wins the deal, lol. Too often, feels like we lost a deal or barely broke even. Since we don't have to trade Coby, we should only do so in a deal where we feel like we clearly win. Tired of lateral moves.

I'd trade Vuc, Huerter or Collins for whatever we could get, for instance. With Coby, need to get the most we can get.

I throw up teams at random and you try to disqualify them, lmao! Any of those teams could acquire draft picks. The trade is not happening today. The return doesn't even need to be picks. Wouldn't necessarily do the trade for Sheppard and 2027 pick, would be much more amenable to Sheppard and Jabari Smith. I value young players that have shown something in the league more than future picks. Dalton Knect has value. Other players could be sent elsewhere to acquire picks. Future picks can be split into picks, like the Suns did. Deal could a three way, which many deals are nowadays. And there are 20+ other teams I'm sure we have no idea what their plans will be for the next 6 months. Maybe one loses their starting SG.

I don't care what the other teams want, I'm talking about OUR relative return for Coby. We just have different values, clearly you would take two future late round picks for Coby now, I wouldn't. I could feel differently at the deadline.

[jnrjr79]

Bro, is two firsts anywhere near 5 firsts, lmao?? It's an example of a win now team paying a premium for a perceived need. Maybe the Rockets are the only team in that position, maybe there are more. Pacers possibly fit the bill, Nuggets certainly. Lakers might. Those are the types of teams I would be targeting if I'm using Coby to add assets instead of a star, and I'm asking for a lot. Again, there's no rush to trade Coby so we can look for the best deal (or leverage that win now team to the fullest).

Bro, if you didn't think the Bridges trade was an appropriate comp, why did you mention it?

Lakers: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Nuggets: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Pacers: they have firsts to trade, but I do not view them as a Coby suitor

The problem with most teams that are currently in "going for it" mode is that they've traded away most of their draft assets already to put together the teams they have. Houston and OKC are kind of the outliers there, off the top of my head.

It wasn't a direct comparison, it was an example of a win now team paying a premium. We're talking about 5 picks vs 2 picks. Teams make what seem to be crazy money and pick moves. I could literally do 10 more easily, Lillard trade both times, Luka trade, PG contract got $211 mill in 2024, Bradley Beal trade both times, Jeremi Grant 5yrs/$160 mill, hell Zac Lavine 5yrs/$215 mill, Quickley 5yrs/$162.5 mill. Jordan Poole 4yrs/$128 mill. OKC gave Chet Holgrem max and Caruso $20 mill to play part time off the bench., headscratcher. Most of these in the last few years. I hate when people talk in absolutes because it's not rare for teams to seemingly overpay for players, it's actually common. It happens all the time.

The trick is once in a while, try to be the team that really wins the deal, lol. Too often, feels like we lost a deal or barely broke even. Since we don't have to trade Coby, we should only do so in a deal where we feel like we clearly win. Tired of lateral moves.

I'd trade Vuc, Huerter or Collins for whatever we could get, for instance. With Coby, need to get the most we can get.

If the point here is that teams occasionally overpay in trades and that the Bulls should capitalize on that if they have such an opportunity, I agree.

(one quibble - the Caruso contract is good, actually)

[Chi town]

Sounds like Ayo will be the one to be traded.

Coby will go for a crazy overpay IMO.

[Infinity2152]

Bro, if you didn't think the Bridges trade was an appropriate comp, why did you mention it?

Lakers: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Nuggets: do not have a 1st to trade until 2031
Pacers: they have firsts to trade, but I do not view them as a Coby suitor

The problem with most teams that are currently in "going for it" mode is that they've traded away most of their draft assets already to put together the teams they have. Houston and OKC are kind of the outliers there, off the top of my head.

It wasn't a direct comparison, it was an example of a win now team paying a premium. We're talking about 5 picks vs 2 picks. Teams make what seem to be crazy money and pick moves. I could literally do 10 more easily, Lillard trade both times, Luka trade, PG contract got $211 mill in 2024, Bradley Beal trade both times, Jeremi Grant 5yrs/$160 mill, hell Zac Lavine 5yrs/$215 mill, Quickley 5yrs/$162.5 mill. Jordan Poole 4yrs/$128 mill. OKC gave Chet Holgrem max and Caruso $20 mill to play part time off the bench., headscratcher. Most of these in the last few years. I hate when people talk in absolutes because it's not rare for teams to seemingly overpay for players, it's actually common. It happens all the time.

The trick is once in a while, try to be the team that really wins the deal, lol. Too often, feels like we lost a deal or barely broke even. Since we don't have to trade Coby, we should only do so in a deal where we feel like we clearly win. Tired of lateral moves.

I'd trade Vuc, Huerter or Collins for whatever we could get, for instance. With Coby, need to get the most we can get.

If the point here is that teams occasionally overpay in trades and that the Bulls should capitalize on that if they have such an opportunity, I agree.

(one quibble - the Caruso contract is good, actually)

Caruso contract is good in what sense? Financially? I don't think it would be incredibly hard to replace Caruso's contributions with 2 $10 mill players like Tre Jones and Okoro. He averaged 7pts, 3 rbs, 2.5 assists, played under 20 minutes and only played 54 games. he's pretty regularly injured even as a bench player, 3 seasons of over 60 games. OKC still wins the championship without Caruso, imo. But that's kind of my point. He might be worth it to OKC for the $20 mill despite all that, he would not be worth it to us imo.

Not saying most teams are offering great deals. Looking to move in two years, I'm scouring the market now for great deals in the area. Since I have time, it's almost guaranteed I'm going to get a great deal, I'm not accepting anything less. While we have time, shop for the best deal. best thing is to create the opportunity if you can. Don't know much about AK's personal style, he seems to be aggressive as a buyer, getting players he wants. Not so aggressive as a seller, creating deals. When we decide to trade away players we don't often get much.

Coby's a good-great starting NBA SG. Not the best pairing with Giddey, but he's pretty damn good. Good guy, good scorer, great shooter, can create on ball. I don't see why a lot of teams wouldn't value him, especially if they have a defensive PG.

[jnrjr79]

It wasn't a direct comparison, it was an example of a win now team paying a premium. We're talking about 5 picks vs 2 picks. Teams make what seem to be crazy money and pick moves. I could literally do 10 more easily, Lillard trade both times, Luka trade, PG contract got $211 mill in 2024, Bradley Beal trade both times, Jeremi Grant 5yrs/$160 mill, hell Zac Lavine 5yrs/$215 mill, Quickley 5yrs/$162.5 mill. Jordan Poole 4yrs/$128 mill. OKC gave Chet Holgrem max and Caruso $20 mill to play part time off the bench., headscratcher. Most of these in the last few years. I hate when people talk in absolutes because it's not rare for teams to seemingly overpay for players, it's actually common. It happens all the time.

The trick is once in a while, try to be the team that really wins the deal, lol. Too often, feels like we lost a deal or barely broke even. Since we don't have to trade Coby, we should only do so in a deal where we feel like we clearly win. Tired of lateral moves.

I'd trade Vuc, Huerter or Collins for whatever we could get, for instance. With Coby, need to get the most we can get.

If the point here is that teams occasionally overpay in trades and that the Bulls should capitalize on that if they have such an opportunity, I agree.

(one quibble - the Caruso contract is good, actually)

Caruso contract is good in what sense? Financially? I don't think it would be incredibly hard to replace Caruso's contributions with 2 $10 mill players like Tre Jones and Okoro. He averaged 7pts, 3 rbs, 2.5 assists, played under 20 minutes and only played 54 games. he's pretty regularly injured even as a bench player, 3 seasons of over 60 games. OKC still wins the championship without Caruso, imo. But that's kind of my point. He might be worth it to OKC for the $20 mill despite all that, he would not be worth it to us imo.

Yes, financially, for the NBA champion Oklahoma city Thunder.

Counting stats are meaningless when discussing Caruso's "production." He is the best in the NBA at what he does and Tre and Okoro are laughable replacements for him.

I agree he doesn't make sense on this team, becauase you only want him if you're a contender.

Not saying most teams are offering great deals. Looking to move in two years, I'm scouring the market now for great deals in the area. Since I have time, it's almost guaranteed I'm going to get a great deal, I'm not accepting anything less. While we have time, shop for the best deal. best thing is to create the opportunity if you can. Don't know much about AK's personal style, he seems to be aggressive as a buyer, getting players he wants. Not so aggressive as a seller, creating deals. When we decide to trade away players we don't often get much.

I am not really sure what this discussion means (not agreeing or disagreeing - just saying I'm having a hard time picking up what you're saying here.

Coby's a good-great starting NBA SG. Not the best pairing with Giddey, but he's pretty damn good. Good guy, good scorer, great shooter, can create on ball. I don't see why a lot of teams wouldn't value him, especially if they have a defensive PG.

I do not agree that Coby is a good to great starting NBA SG. (Heck, he's not even a SG, really). If by "good" you mean "average starter," then ok. He does one thing quite well: score the basketball. That's an important skill! But scoring-only guards are of less and less value in today's NBA. Since he's something of a tweener, if you're just looking at guards, he's probably behind: Luka, Shai, Halliburton, Ant, Steph, Fox, Booker, Maxey, Trae (arguably, because Jesus that defense is atrocious), Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Cade, Kyrie, PG (if healthy), Ja (if healthy), Beal, maybe Bane, Garland, and LaMelo (also if healthy).

He's 20 PPG on pretty good, but not great, shooting, 4.5 assists, and does not contribute defensively despite having realtively adequate size.

[Infinity2152]

If the point here is that teams occasionally overpay in trades and that the Bulls should capitalize on that if they have such an opportunity, I agree.

(one quibble - the Caruso contract is good, actually)

Caruso contract is good in what sense? Financially? I don't think it would be incredibly hard to replace Caruso's contributions with 2 $10 mill players like Tre Jones and Okoro. He averaged 7pts, 3 rbs, 2.5 assists, played under 20 minutes and only played 54 games. he's pretty regularly injured even as a bench player, 3 seasons of over 60 games. OKC still wins the championship without Caruso, imo. But that's kind of my point. He might be worth it to OKC for the $20 mill despite all that, he would not be worth it to us imo.

Yes, financially, for the NBA champion Oklahoma city Thunder.

Counting stats are meaningless when discussing Caruso's "production." He is the best in the NBA at what he does and Tre and Okoro are laughable replacements for him.

I agree he doesn't make sense on this team, becauase you only want him if you're a contender.

Not saying most teams are offering great deals. Looking to move in two years, I'm scouring the market now for great deals in the area. Since I have time, it's almost guaranteed I'm going to get a great deal, I'm not accepting anything less. While we have time, shop for the best deal. best thing is to create the opportunity if you can. Don't know much about AK's personal style, he seems to be aggressive as a buyer, getting players he wants. Not so aggressive as a seller, creating deals. When we decide to trade away players we don't often get much.

I am not really sure what this discussion means (not agreeing or disagreeing - just saying I'm having a hard time picking up what you're saying here.

Coby's a good-great starting NBA SG. Not the best pairing with Giddey, but he's pretty damn good. Good guy, good scorer, great shooter, can create on ball. I don't see why a lot of teams wouldn't value him, especially if they have a defensive PG.

I do not agree that Coby is a good to great starting NBA SG. (Heck, he's not even a SG, really). If by "good" you mean "average starter," then ok. He does one thing quite well: score the basketball. That's an important skill! But scoring-only guards are of less and less value in today's NBA. Since he's something of a tweener, if you're just looking at guards, he's probably behind: Luka, Shai, Halliburton, Ant, Steph, Fox, Booker, Maxey, Trae (arguably, because Jesus that defense is atrocious), Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Cade, Kyrie, PG (if healthy), Ja (if healthy), Beal, maybe Bane, Garland, and LaMelo (also if healthy).

He's 20 PPG on pretty good, but not great, shooting, 4.5 assists, and does not contribute defensively despite having realtively adequate size.

Well again, that was kind of my point. You contend Coby will only get us two late round picks and maybe not that. I tried to how multiple examples of teams doing what could appear in a vacuum to be overpayments as not overpayments for the team in question. You're arguing my point, Caruso could be worth $20 mill to OKC. That's not the same as being worth $20 mill. Coby being worth say 3 late round firsts is relative to the teams bidding on him.

There are 32 starting SG's in the league. Coby is playing SG and has played SG for years so that's the position I'm calling him. That's going to be the position I would compare him too. Of all those guards you mentioned above him, maybe 6 play primarily at SG. So you need to show me at least 15 starting SG's definitively better than Coby for him not to be good-great. Number 16 would be median starting SG. You're saying he's worse than that. When factoring in health, contract and age as well, I disagree Coby is the 16th best value at starting SG of players who actually play SG. Every single one of those guys you listed make triple, quadruple, and even more than Coby's current $12 mill. Compare him to the vets making $12 mill. Or even the guys in his projected contract range, Anfernee Simos and Jalen Green types.

Even at $30 mill, he'd make half of what some of those guys will be getting. But this year at $12 mill counts too.

[jnrjr79]

Caruso contract is good in what sense? Financially? I don't think it would be incredibly hard to replace Caruso's contributions with 2 $10 mill players like Tre Jones and Okoro. He averaged 7pts, 3 rbs, 2.5 assists, played under 20 minutes and only played 54 games. he's pretty regularly injured even as a bench player, 3 seasons of over 60 games. OKC still wins the championship without Caruso, imo. But that's kind of my point. He might be worth it to OKC for the $20 mill despite all that, he would not be worth it to us imo.

Yes, financially, for the NBA champion Oklahoma city Thunder.

Counting stats are meaningless when discussing Caruso's "production." He is the best in the NBA at what he does and Tre and Okoro are laughable replacements for him.

I agree he doesn't make sense on this team, becauase you only want him if you're a contender.

Not saying most teams are offering great deals. Looking to move in two years, I'm scouring the market now for great deals in the area. Since I have time, it's almost guaranteed I'm going to get a great deal, I'm not accepting anything less. While we have time, shop for the best deal. best thing is to create the opportunity if you can. Don't know much about AK's personal style, he seems to be aggressive as a buyer, getting players he wants. Not so aggressive as a seller, creating deals. When we decide to trade away players we don't often get much.

I am not really sure what this discussion means (not agreeing or disagreeing - just saying I'm having a hard time picking up what you're saying here.

Coby's a good-great starting NBA SG. Not the best pairing with Giddey, but he's pretty damn good. Good guy, good scorer, great shooter, can create on ball. I don't see why a lot of teams wouldn't value him, especially if they have a defensive PG.

I do not agree that Coby is a good to great starting NBA SG. (Heck, he's not even a SG, really). If by "good" you mean "average starter," then ok. He does one thing quite well: score the basketball. That's an important skill! But scoring-only guards are of less and less value in today's NBA. Since he's something of a tweener, if you're just looking at guards, he's probably behind: Luka, Shai, Halliburton, Ant, Steph, Fox, Booker, Maxey, Trae (arguably, because Jesus that defense is atrocious), Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Cade, Kyrie, PG (if healthy), Ja (if healthy), Beal, maybe Bane, Garland, and LaMelo (also if healthy).

He's 20 PPG on pretty good, but not great, shooting, 4.5 assists, and does not contribute defensively despite having realtively adequate size.

Well again, that was kind of my point. You contend Coby will only get us two late round picks and maybe not that. I tried to how multiple examples of teams doing what could appear in a vacuum to be overpayments as not overpayments for the team in question. You're arguing my point, Caruso could be worth $20 mill to OKC. That's not the same as being worth $20 mill. Coby being worth say 3 late round firsts is relative to the teams bidding on him.

I think Caruso is "worth" $20M in general sense. It's just that he really only makes sense on a contending team, given he's something of a luxury player.

I agree teams will be willing to bid more or less based on their specific situations. I assume there are quite a few teams that would offer 0 first round picks for Coby. When I suggested the Bulls may not get 2 picks for him, I didn't mean that the average offer would not be 2 firsts, but that it's possible 0 teams will offer that, mostly given his contract situation.

I think if Coby had 3 more years on his deal at his current salary, you'd very easily get 2 1sts for him. But that's not what he is. He's a guy you get for one year and then either lose or have to pay a potentially large salary.

There are 32 starting SG's in the league. Coby is playing SG and has played SG for years so that's the position I'm calling him. That's going to be the position I would compare him too.

He's been listed as a PG his entire career. I think it's pretty disingenous to declare him something else for argument's sake and probably more appropriate to just call him a "guard," since he's a bit of a combo guy.

Of all those guards you mentioned above him, maybe 6 play primarily at SG. So you need to show me at least 15 starting SG's definitively better than Coby for him not to be good-great.

No, I don't need to do that (in part because it's obnoxious to tell people what they "need" to do in this context), because I've already acknowledged that if by "good" you mean "average starter," then I agree he is good in that sense. When you said he was "good to great," that meant you thought he was on the cusp of greatness. I think that's pretty obviously untrue.

Number 16 would be median starting SG. You're saying he's worse than that.

No, I'm not, and I'm not sure whether you're just not reading what I've written or being disingenous here. I explicitly said I thought "average starter" was an approrpriate characterization.

When factoring in health, contract and age as well, I disagree Coby is the 16th best value at starting SG of players who actually play SG.

Well, it's obviously not appropriate to factor in "contract" in the discussion of whether Coby is a "good to great" player, so I can't really respond to this to the extent it's affecting your opinion.

For instance, Paul George is a better player than Coby, but I'd certainly understand it if someone would prefer Coby given George's big contract.

Every single one of those guys you listed make triple, quadruple, and even more than Coby's current $12 mill. Compare him to the vets making $12 mill. Or even the guys in his projected contract range, Anfernee Simos and Jalen Green types.

Even at $30 mill, he'd make half of what some of those guys will be getting. But this year at $12 mill counts too.

His current salary is basically meaningless since he becomes a UFA after this season. The fact that he is not under team control more than completely offsets the cheap salary for this year. (This again has nothing to do with whether he's good-to-great, but does go to his trade value).

Coby's deal is a net negative for his trade value at this point.

[Infinity2152]

Yes, financially, for the NBA champion Oklahoma city Thunder.

Counting stats are meaningless when discussing Caruso's "production." He is the best in the NBA at what he does and Tre and Okoro are laughable replacements for him.

I agree he doesn't make sense on this team, becauase you only want him if you're a contender.



I am not really sure what this discussion means (not agreeing or disagreeing - just saying I'm having a hard time picking up what you're saying here.



I do not agree that Coby is a good to great starting NBA SG. (Heck, he's not even a SG, really). If by "good" you mean "average starter," then ok. He does one thing quite well: score the basketball. That's an important skill! But scoring-only guards are of less and less value in today's NBA. Since he's something of a tweener, if you're just looking at guards, he's probably behind: Luka, Shai, Halliburton, Ant, Steph, Fox, Booker, Maxey, Trae (arguably, because Jesus that defense is atrocious), Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Cade, Kyrie, PG (if healthy), Ja (if healthy), Beal, maybe Bane, Garland, and LaMelo (also if healthy).

He's 20 PPG on pretty good, but not great, shooting, 4.5 assists, and does not contribute defensively despite having realtively adequate size.

Well again, that was kind of my point. You contend Coby will only get us two late round picks and maybe not that. I tried to how multiple examples of teams doing what could appear in a vacuum to be overpayments as not overpayments for the team in question. You're arguing my point, Caruso could be worth $20 mill to OKC. That's not the same as being worth $20 mill. Coby being worth say 3 late round firsts is relative to the teams bidding on him.

I think Caruso is "worth" $20M in general sense. It's just that he really only makes sense on a contending team, given he's something of a luxury player.

I agree teams will be willing to bid more or less based on their specific situations. I assume there are quite a few teams that would offer 0 first round picks for Coby. When I suggested the Bulls may not get 2 picks for him, I didn't mean that the average offer would not be 2 firsts, but that it's possible 0 teams will offer that, mostly given his contract situation.

I think if Coby had 3 more years on his deal at his current salary, you'd very easily get 2 1sts for him. But that's not what he is. He's a guy you get for one year and then either lose or have to pay a potentially large salary.

There are 32 starting SG's in the league. Coby is playing SG and has played SG for years so that's the position I'm calling him. That's going to be the position I would compare him too.

He's been listed as a PG his entire career. I think it's pretty disingenous to declare him something else for argument's sake and probably more appropriate to just call him a "guard," since he's a bit of a combo guy.

Listed where as a PG? What difference does what he's listed make? Are you contending he's been playing PG for us all these years? I said he's been playing SG. Usually next to a player that's playing PG. So he's not playing SG for us right now? He's playing PG? I think it's disingenous to act like he's not playing at SG next to Giddey, who's playing at PG. I should call him a PG even though he's playing SG next to a PG most of his career, because somebody listed him as such. That's honesty?

Of all those guards you mentioned above him, maybe 6 play primarily at SG. So you need to show me at least 15 starting SG's definitively better than Coby for him not to be good-great.

No, I don't need to do that (in part because it's obnoxious to tell people what they "need" to do in this context), because I've already acknowledged that if by "good" you mean "average starter," then I agree he is good in that sense. When you said he was "good to great," that meant you thought he was on the cusp of greatness. I think that's pretty obviously untrue.

]It's obnoxious to add personal context to a condition regarding a statement. You take it how you want. Th statement is basically that there need to be at least 15 SG's better than Coby for him not to be above average. Was not personally about you or what you need to do. Then continually calling me disingenuous. Since you want to go there, done with the conversation. Won't even argue the rest of the points, you can have it.

Number 16 would be median starting SG. You're saying he's worse than that.

No, I'm not, and I'm not sure whether you're just not reading what I've written or being disingenous here. I explicitly said I thought "average starter" was an approrpriate characterization.

When factoring in health, contract and age as well, I disagree Coby is the 16th best value at starting SG of players who actually play SG.

Well, it's obviously not appropriate to factor in "contract" in the discussion of whether Coby is a "good to great" player, so I can't really respond to this to the extent it's affecting your opinion.

For instance, Paul George is a better player than Coby, but I'd certainly understand it if someone would prefer Coby given George's big contract.

Every single one of those guys you listed make triple, quadruple, and even more than Coby's current $12 mill. Compare him to the vets making $12 mill. Or even the guys in his projected contract range, Anfernee Simos and Jalen Green types.

Even at $30 mill, he'd make half of what some of those guys will be getting. But this year at $12 mill counts too.

His current salary is basically meaningless since he becomes a UFA after this season. The fact that he is not under team control more than completely offsets the cheap salary for this year. (This again has nothing to do with whether he's good-to-great, but does go to his trade value).

Coby's deal is a net negative for his trade value at this point.

[Infinity2152]

It's crazy you can't have civil discussions in here, man. So many conversations end up in name-calling and insults, rather than just staying on basketball.