Who Was Actually the Better Player: Steve Nash or Mark Price

[Biff]

People really overrate the D'Antoni system. Nash made the D'Antoni system great, not the other way around.

Nash was simply misused by the Mavs and they had no idea what they had.

[dk1115]

Some of the highlights I watch of Mark Price, he was shooting off the dribble 3's in a time that no one did that. I'd say if you put him 10 years later, he'd be in the hall of fame for sure.

[og15]

Both would arguably be more valued in the modern game than they were in their time. Both were excellent shooters who would shoot more 3s today than they did back when they played.

Nash won two MVP's in his 30's in his time and played under one of the coaches who helped usher in the following eras of NBA basketball, I can't agree that he was not valued enough in his era based on those results.

It's way closer than what you think.
Put Price in today's game under D'Antoni system, he would absolutely thrive.

The pace in Price’s first 10 seasons is about 10% faster than Nash’s MVP seasons.

True but the rules back then were more balanced.
They didn't heavily favor perimeter play like today.

Nash didn't play in today's NBA either, but it wasn't just rules that make the difference

[SHAQ32]

People really overrate the D'Antoni system. Nash made the D'Antoni system great, not the other way around.

Nash was simply misused by the Mavs and they had no idea what they had.

You could see what Nash was becoming in those last few years in Dallas. It didn't just coincide with the SSOL D'Antoni system. It was that and not having to defer to Dirk anymore.

[Sofia]

Although Nash didn't deserve those MVPs thanks to the league attempting to placate certain masses post Col, its definitely him by a comfortable margin. Like others have said even the Mavericks version is better than Mark Price.

Wait, just to confirm, you’re saying Steve Nash won the MVPs because the league wanted to keep “certain people” happy after Kobe raped a woman in Colorado?

Im not going to dignify your question with an answer given such a ridiculous assertion.

is that not what you’re saying?

I assumed that’s what “post Col” meant.

[ropjhk]

Both would arguably be more valued in the modern game than they were in their time. Both were excellent shooters who would shoot more 3s today than they did back when they played.

Nash won two MVP's in his 30's in his time and played under one of the coaches who helped usher in the following eras of NBA basketball, I can't agree that he was not valued enough in his era based on those results.

I also think that Nash was valued enough in his era based on those results. Two MVPs is proof that his value was recognized. I'm just saying that he could have been valued even more.

Nash's MVPs are some of the more disrespected MVPs (thanks to Shaq and Kobe stans). I think one reason why some people discount Nash's MVPs is because he didn't score more. There has always been a fan bias towards scoring.

Nash himself said that he regrets not shooting more 3s. Imagine if he averaged just a couple more points. The psychological impact on fans, All-Star and MVP voters if they see Nash break the 20 point per game mark.

[ImmortalD24]

Wait, just to confirm, you’re saying Steve Nash won the MVPs because the league wanted to keep “certain people” happy after Kobe raped a woman in Colorado?

Im not going to dignify your question with an answer given such a ridiculous assertion.

is that not what you’re saying?

I assumed that’s what “post Col” meant.

Stick to basketball, broski.

[doogie_hauser]

Overall Those Cavs teams of fhe mid 80s - early 90s are pretty underrated. Price, Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance, Craig Ehlo had some fantastic regular season and playoff games vs The Celtics, Bulls and Pistons back in the era when the East was by far the most dominant conference in the NBA

They are well worth watching on YouTube or League Pass classic games collection

I kind of resent the notion that Cleveland was a nothing franchise before Lebron came, as i say the Price era Cavs team was very talented and fun to watch that have flown under the radar over the years.

[ConstableChaos]

put price on the 7sol suns theyre not sniffing the playoffs

[JinKaz69]

put price on the 7sol suns theyre not sniffing the playoffs

Terrible take.
I don't even know if you have ever watched Price play.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not sure I agree.
Jeremy Lin's best season was with D'Antoni in NY,
A guy by the name of Kendall Marshall had his only decent season under Mike with 8 pts and nearly 9 assists with the Lakers.
Chis Duhon's most productive season was also with Mike with 11pts 7 assists.

I think you have something here, but arguing with mike put smart guys in places to make decisions and countering with the only NBA player to have come from Harvard is perhaps an issue? I believe Duhon was a Duke guy as well? So you're saying kinda saying "but this find smart guys worked for guys who only graduated from Duke and Harvard". I don't know Marshall so not sure about him.

Kendall went to North Carolina. Nash went to Santa Clara while James Harden went to Arizona State. My daughter told me some nerds make fun of Arizona State as a fake University...
You're not wrong but Mike coached for at least 14 years, and how many PGs have actually failed miserably under his system?

Like I said, I think you may have a point. But grabbing a Duke and Harvard guy as counter examples to "smart players" isn't exactly a good way to make it

I'd add in that you can be smart and go to college anywhere. The reverse however is a bit tough. Maybe Duke lets you in with a slightly lower standard than the general pop, but they're still really high. And Harvard just doesn't give a crap...you meet the standards or you don't. So harden going to Arizona state doesn't mean he's dumb...but more likely

[HMFFL]

The guy who won 2 MVPs in an era with Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James.

In my opinion he didn't deserved the MVP on 2006.

And it's great you feel the need to mention that.

MVP Voting

First Place Votes:
Steve Nash 57
Lebron James 16

Points Won:
Steve Nash 924
Lebron James 688


No matter how often someone says Steve didn't deserve it, the voting tells the story, unlike times voting has been close.

[JinKaz69]

The guy who won 2 MVPs in an era with Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James.

In my opinion he didn't deserved the MVP on 2006.

And it's great you feel the need to mention that.

MVP Voting

First Place Votes:
Steve Nash 57
Lebron James 16

Points Won:
Steve Nash 924
Lebron James 688


No matter how often someone say Steve didn't deserve it, the voting tells the story, unlike times voting has been close.

Dirk should have won that year.
He had a great individual season and the Mavs had the 3rd best record of the league.

[jowglenn]

One thing that people forget about the Nash years is that the NBA had turned into a low-scoring, defense-oriented, grinding league. In 03-04, the league average points per game was 93.4. Excluding the 99 lockout year, that was the lowest points per game since 1955. The Eastern Conference Finals that year? The highest point total by either team was 85 points: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2004-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pistons-vs-pacers.html

The Finals that year? The highest score by either team was 100.

Then, out of that quagmire, the very next year Nash and the Phoenix Suns produced the most beautiful high octane offense the league had seen in maybe 20 years. 110 points per game, 7 more than the second best offense! Insane! It was the most exciting thing to watch in years!!! They had the highest number of 3-point attempts AND the highest 3-point percentage!!!

The Nash thing can't be judged solely by his stats or whatever - this team was producing something NEW and FUN and AMAZING. They literally laid the groundwork for these last 20 years of NBA offense.

[ciueli]

Mark Price quality seasons as a starter: 1987-1988, 1988-1989, 1989-1990, 1991-1992, 1992-1993, 1993-1994

Six seasons total, he played half a season in 1994-1995 with good numbers but only started 34 games, after that his last solid season was 1996-1997 where he started 49 games with decent advanced stats but played under 27MPG and only averaged 11.3PPG 4.9APG.

Steve Nash quality seasons as a starter: 2000-2001, 2001-2002, 2002-2003, 2003-2004, 2004-2005, 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009,2009-2010, 2010-2011, 2011-2012

Twelve seasons total, he was still somewhat relevant in 2012-2013 in one season with the Lakers but only played 50 games.

To me, it's not remotely close between these two, longevity matters and Price did not have that. Nash played deep into his 30s and managed to put up some great seasons past when Price was already retired, Price's last season was his year 33 season as a poor stats bench player, meanwhile in Nash's year 33 season he was still an All-Star and made All-NBA second team.

[og15]

Both would arguably be more valued in the modern game than they were in their time. Both were excellent shooters who would shoot more 3s today than they did back when they played.

Nash won two MVP's in his 30's in his time and played under one of the coaches who helped usher in the following eras of NBA basketball, I can't agree that he was not valued enough in his era based on those results.

I also think that Nash was valued enough in his era based on those results. Two MVPs is proof that his value was recognized. I'm just saying that he could have been valued even more.

Nash's MVPs are some of the more disrespected MVPs (thanks to Shaq and Kobe stans). I think one reason why some people discount Nash's MVPs is because he didn't score more. There has always been a fan bias towards scoring.

Nash himself said that he regrets not shooting more 3s. Imagine if he averaged just a couple more points. The psychological impact on fans, All-Star and MVP voters if they see Nash break the 20 point per game mark.

You are correct about this

I think you have something here, but arguing with mike put smart guys in places to make decisions and countering with the only NBA player to have come from Harvard is perhaps an issue? I believe Duhon was a Duke guy as well? So you're saying kinda saying "but this find smart guys worked for guys who only graduated from Duke and Harvard". I don't know Marshall so not sure about him.

Kendall went to North Carolina. Nash went to Santa Clara while James Harden went to Arizona State. My daughter told me some nerds make fun of Arizona State as a fake University...
You're not wrong but Mike coached for at least 14 years, and how many PGs have actually failed miserably under his system?

Like I said, I think you may have a point. But grabbing a Duke and Harvard guy as counter examples to "smart players" isn't exactly a good way to make it

I'd add in that you can be smart and go to college anywhere. The reverse however is a bit tough. Maybe Duke lets you in with a slightly lower standard than the general pop, but they're still really high. And Harvard just doesn't give a crap...you meet the standards or you don't. So harden going to Arizona state doesn't mean he's dumb...but more likely

I think also important is to acknowledge that being smart in basketball and being smart in school aren't the same thing

[dhsilv2]

Kendall went to North Carolina. Nash went to Santa Clara while James Harden went to Arizona State. My daughter told me some nerds make fun of Arizona State as a fake University...
You're not wrong but Mike coached for at least 14 years, and how many PGs have actually failed miserably under his system?

Like I said, I think you may have a point. But grabbing a Duke and Harvard guy as counter examples to "smart players" isn't exactly a good way to make it

I'd add in that you can be smart and go to college anywhere. The reverse however is a bit tough. Maybe Duke lets you in with a slightly lower standard than the general pop, but they're still really high. And Harvard just doesn't give a crap...you meet the standards or you don't. So harden going to Arizona state doesn't mean he's dumb...but more likely

I think also important is to acknowledge that being smart in basketball and being smart in school aren't the same thing

Yes and no. The issue in basketball is many guys lack the physical tools to use their smarts. Kerr was a smart player...but we're not exactly going to have film of him making brilliant passes. So sure BBIQ and getting into Duke isn't 1 to 1...but there's a lot of carry over. Or another way to look at it is someone like Harden moves at a different speed than those around him. His ability to speed up and slow down better than those around him, allows him more time to make decisions. Less athletic guys because they move slower than those around have to make decisions all the faster. This creates a huge different in our perceptions of "basketball IQ".

[taikibansei]

Im not going to dignify your question with an answer given such a ridiculous assertion.

is that not what you’re saying?

I assumed that’s what “post Col” meant.

Stick to basketball, broski.

In other words, Sofia, you nailed it with your first post.

[ImmortalD24]

is that not what you’re saying?

I assumed that’s what “post Col” meant.

Stick to basketball, broski.

In other words, Sofia, you nailed it with your first post.

In other words, you have a bias against a certain group of people. Cancel culture isn’t a new phenomenon.

Heck years later people still had an issue with him:
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/18/658651932/kobe-bryant-removed-as-animation-festival-juror-after-protest-over-past-allegati

Academy Award winner Kobe Bryant was dropped as a jury member from the Animation Is Film festival in Los Angeles this weekend after backlash stemming from past sexual assault allegations against him.

Even right after his unaliving it was brought up by CBS:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-02-06/gayle-king-lisa-leslie-kobe-bryant-rape

Gayle King is defending herself after a question she asked former WNBA star Lisa Leslie about Kobe Bryant’s rape case sparked backlash in the wake of his Jan. 26 death.

Yet we’re expected to believe there wasn’t a reluctance to put Kobe at the forefront when it was still fresh in people’s minds? The same league that had a drug problem back in the day before Bird/Magic “saved the NBA”? One of the first and possibly only league that had a strict dress code not long afterwards (as they’ve loosened it up in recent years due to player empowerment)? League is all about optics and best interest for the leagues image. Heck even MJ isn’t above the program and he’s the goat. Don’t be willingly ignorant. Yes it played a major role. Anyways let’s stay back on topic.

[tamaraw08]

I think you have something here, but arguing with mike put smart guys in places to make decisions and countering with the only NBA player to have come from Harvard is perhaps an issue? I believe Duhon was a Duke guy as well? So you're saying kinda saying "but this find smart guys worked for guys who only graduated from Duke and Harvard". I don't know Marshall so not sure about him.

Kendall went to North Carolina. Nash went to Santa Clara while James Harden went to Arizona State. My daughter told me some nerds make fun of Arizona State as a fake University...
You're not wrong but Mike coached for at least 14 years, and how many PGs have actually failed miserably under his system?

Like I said, I think you may have a point. But grabbing a Duke and Harvard guy as counter examples to "smart players" isn't exactly a good way to make it

I'd add in that you can be smart and go to college anywhere. The reverse however is a bit tough. Maybe Duke lets you in with a slightly lower standard than the general pop, but they're still really high. And Harvard just doesn't give a crap...you meet the standards or you don't. So harden going to Arizona state doesn't mean he's dumb...but more likely

But I just want to clarify why I disagreed with this point.

The D’Antoni system is mostly about finding a really smart player and letting him decide what to do, so it will never make sense to say that any of D’Antoni’s stars are a product of his system.

This isn’t a dis of D’Antoni to be clear, as he’s probably the most important coach of the 21st century, it’s just that his big picture advances are simple:

A) 3 > 2

B) Attack before the defense is set

C) Stop trying to show how smart you are by micromanaging your players with play calls. You’re really not that smart.

This isn’t to say D’Antoni wasn’t innovative on a more granular level too, but those innovations were in service of the big picture stuff.

Mike finding really smart players and simply let them make vital decisions on their own doesn't magically make them hit shots and and instantly collect more assists imo.
There's more to it like putting players in their best possible position to be produce efficiently and attack properly.
Spacing is also very vital and
it's not like they just ran and gun to not let the opposing team set up their defense either. Please note that coach Paul Westhead tried that frenetic pace with Denver in 1990 and failed miserably