How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

I have. It just isn't sufficient for you and that's fine with me. I have a life..so I'm not going to score the internet to find data to substantiate an argument with you that I'm satisfied with.



As I said before, DIFF% is the best metric I have. Per NBA stats Glossary:



So you can compare Jokic's DIFF% in the RS (which is awful) and in the Playoffs (which is better but still below average relative to other C's. Jokic also had zero kick balls in the playoffs according to the data. Not sure how to layer in two steals a game but I don't think forcing two turnovers compensates for giving up the second most points per game

Also the DFGA and DFGM isn't a refelction of how good a player is at "altering" a shot per say. It reflects how often the player in question is the closest play to the player who attempted the FGA

If you ever both to take 5 minutes and use a calculator. You'll see the the numbers your talking about aren't as material as you think they are. Meanwhile your downplaying the turnovers, deflects and so on are more impactful than you're realizing. I've already done some light work on this in the last thread which you ignored.

Given you aren't willing to actually take the numbers I've done. I'm asking you to take a whole 10 minutes and do some really simple math. Once you do it, you'll understand why Jokic isn't a bad defender. But it's clear if you don't do it yourself you're not going to "get it".

Quite clear people don't watch enough.

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

[bovice]

most people don't know ball

[LordCovington33]

I can count all the reasons on ONE RING finger

[Godymas]

Why is there such a rush lately to try and contextualize modern athletes in all time discussion?

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using RealGM mobile app

It’s funny how Jokic is the guy they rush to put there too.

Definitely don’t see this for Giannis.

Let’s put it this way, people have a hard time putting Steph Curry top 10.


Jokic is not on Steph Curry’s tier all time, nor has he peaked higher offensively than Steph Curry did. However, now during his prime they’re trying to jam him into all time lists when the reality he’a closer to a Dirk with a chance to be on Hakeem’s level if he ever secures a second championship.

I think they’re afraid of what will really happen to Jokic 20 years from now if they don’t ram it down everyone’s throats that he’s some saving grace to Basketball today.

It's because Jokic is an arguable top 5 offensive player with good defense. Giannis' is not a guy that is elite on either end.

Jokic is clear top 15, while Giannis isn't top 50 all-time. Stop it. Jokic is already close to Steph's tier all-time, while clearing Dirk on both ends

You really said a guy that averaged 30 points and 6 assists over the last 4 years on 63% TS is not elite offensively.

This is why the people who talk up Jokic are the worst, absolutely no knowledge of basketball whatsoever.

[Top10alltime]

It’s funny how Jokic is the guy they rush to put there too.

Definitely don’t see this for Giannis.

Let’s put it this way, people have a hard time putting Steph Curry top 10.


Jokic is not on Steph Curry’s tier all time, nor has he peaked higher offensively than Steph Curry did. However, now during his prime they’re trying to jam him into all time lists when the reality he’a closer to a Dirk with a chance to be on Hakeem’s level if he ever secures a second championship.

I think they’re afraid of what will really happen to Jokic 20 years from now if they don’t ram it down everyone’s throats that he’s some saving grace to Basketball today.

It's because Jokic is an arguable top 5 offensive player with good defense. Giannis' is not a guy that is elite on either end.

Jokic is clear top 15, while Giannis isn't top 50 all-time. Stop it. Jokic is already close to Steph's tier all-time, while clearing Dirk on both ends

You really said a guy that averaged 30 points and 6 assists over the last 4 years on 63% TS is not elite offensively.

This is why the people who talk up Jokic are the worst, absolutely no knowledge of basketball whatsoever.

The stats don't matter, he has limited counters to his game, and those same counters get exposed against guys like Embiid, Gobert, and Wemby.

This is why the people who talk up Giannis are the worst, absolutely no knowledge of basketball whatsoever. I can play the insulting game too, and become one of the idiots.

[CharityStripe34]

Why is there such a rush lately to try and contextualize modern athletes in all time discussion?

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using RealGM mobile app

It’s funny how Jokic is the guy they rush to put there too.

Definitely don’t see this for Giannis.

Let’s put it this way, people have a hard time putting Steph Curry top 10.


Jokic is not on Steph Curry’s tier all time, nor has he peaked higher offensively than Steph Curry did. However, now during his prime they’re trying to jam him into all time lists when the reality he’a closer to a Dirk with a chance to be on Hakeem’s level if he ever secures a second championship.

I think they’re afraid of what will really happen to Jokic 20 years from now if they don’t ram it down everyone’s throats that he’s some saving grace to Basketball today.

I think it's the nature of modern sports discussion. The obsession with lists and all-time debates. My thinking is that these guys are still squarely in their prime I'd rather enjoy the ride and see where things stand when they slow down and retire.

[Joao Saraiva]

I have him top 10 all time. Each person can have him wherever they feel like tough.

[SpurNani]

A pure one way heliocentric player who has only beat one 50 win team in his career. Two conferences finals in his decade long career. Is that the same many as Damian Lillard? Lol how can a player be top 10 all time when we simply haven't seen him on the biggest most pressure packed rounds enough? Doesn't play defense at all in the regular season and is declining rapidly on defense if Eurobasket was any indication. One of the only MVPs to win the award with a losing record vs winning teams on the year and many wanted him to win it again last year when he was only on the court for 14 wins vs winning teams.

Lol top ten all time. Silly rabbits. Tricks are for kids.

[Joao Saraiva]

A pure one way heliocentric player who has only beat one 50 win team in his career. Two conferences finals in his decade long career. Is that the same many as Damian Lillard? Lol how can a player be top 10 all time when we simply haven't seen him on the biggest most pressure packed rounds enough? Doesn't play defense at all in the regular season and is declining rapidly on defense if Eurobasket was any indication. One of the only MVPs to win the award with a losing record vs winning teams on the year and many wanted him to win it again last year when he was only on the court for 14 wins vs winning teams.

Lol top ten all time. Silly rabbits. Tricks are for kids.

Declining rapidly.... dude literally dominated the league in advanced metrics for as much time as only Bron and MJ did. LOL

It's hard to beat a lot of teams when the reinforcement is washed Westbrook. When LBJ and Davis got that support they missed the playoffs... let that sink in.

[Ruma85]

A pure one way heliocentric player who has only beat one 50 win team in his career. Two conferences finals in his decade long career. Is that the same many as Damian Lillard? Lol how can a player be top 10 all time when we simply haven't seen him on the biggest most pressure packed rounds enough? Doesn't play defense at all in the regular season and is declining rapidly on defense if Eurobasket was any indication. One of the only MVPs to win the award with a losing record vs winning teams on the year and many wanted him to win it again last year when he was only on the court for 14 wins vs winning teams.

Lol top ten all time. Silly rabbits. Tricks are for kids.

Declining rapidly.... dude literally dominated the league in advanced metrics for as much time as only Bron and MJ did. LOL

It's hard to beat a lot of teams when the reinforcement is washed Westbrook. When LBJ and Davis got that support they missed the playoffs... let that sink in.

I don't think Westbrook was the issue, nonetheless the hate is so weird.

[Daddy 801]

Putting aside the defensive issues I think some people don’t rank current players as high. Not saying this happens all the time but it’s a trend worth noting. I mean players like LeBron are going to clearly break through this stereotype, but it’s so much easier to rank someone once they are retired.

[DimesandKnicks]

If you ever both to take 5 minutes and use a calculator. You'll see the the numbers your talking about aren't as material as you think they are. Meanwhile your downplaying the turnovers, deflects and so on are more impactful than you're realizing. I've already done some light work on this in the last thread which you ignored.

Given you aren't willing to actually take the numbers I've done. I'm asking you to take a whole 10 minutes and do some really simple math. Once you do it, you'll understand why Jokic isn't a bad defender. But it's clear if you don't do it yourself you're not going to "get it".

Quite clear people don't watch enough.

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

[Ruma85]

Quite clear people don't watch enough.

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

Considering the load he has to Carry, he's doing just fine, the fact is he won a chip, despite everything.

[dhsilv2]

Quite clear people don't watch enough.

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

All this data mining but you can't take 5 minutes to try and show the impact of it all...

[DimesandKnicks]

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

All this data mining but you can't take 5 minutes to try and show the impact of it all...

I truly am baffled with your inability to reconcile the impact of all the above on your own. If you have some arbitrary formula that you personally assign value you to, you’re more than welcome to take five minutes of your own time either share it or calibrate it on your own.

But I can say that the Nuggets had the 6th worst defense in the playoffs

[dhsilv2]

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

All this data mining but you can't take 5 minutes to try and show the impact of it all...

I truly am baffled with your inability to reconcile the impact of all the above on your own. If you have some arbitrary formula that you personally assign value you to, you’re more than welcome to take five minutes of your own time either share it or calibrate it on your own.

But I can say that the Nuggets had the 6th worst defense in the playoffs

I've already gone through this process and you refuse to good faith engage. We have a 10 year sample of Jokic...we know he's a plus impact defender.

I've posted film analysis on his defense. I've posted our best data possible in RAPM. I've even tried to explain shot accuracy differentials and what they do.

Jokic is an average to plus defender.

Meanwhile you're bringing in being 6th in playoff defense for the team? Well yes, he has teammates like Jamal Murray (a poor defender) and Michael Porter Jr (an absolutely terrible defender) on his team. Or Westbrook another very poor defender.

He's playing with notable and well proven poor to just bad defenders. Of course their playoff defense has issues. But you're like the guy blaming firefighters because they always show up where there's a fire.

[Rubios]

But who isn’t putting Jokic among the 15 best players ever to touch a basketball?

Another matter is whether he’s among the 15 greatest.

[shinshiliukas]

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

All this data mining but you can't take 5 minutes to try and show the impact of it all...

I truly am baffled with your inability to reconcile the impact of all the above on your own. If you have some arbitrary formula that you personally assign value you to, you’re more than welcome to take five minutes of your own time either share it or calibrate it on your own.

But I can say that the Nuggets had the 6th worst defense in the playoffs

It’s almost as if you don’t understand impact. Why do you think that is? Look, i would like to hate Jokic as much as the next guy. The politics he represents are appalling (again, just my opinion). But despite how much i would like to just hate, his IMPACT on defense is positive. Sometimes us haters just got to admit defeat

[Packbuckman]

All this data mining but you can't take 5 minutes to try and show the impact of it all...

I truly am baffled with your inability to reconcile the impact of all the above on your own. If you have some arbitrary formula that you personally assign value you to, you’re more than welcome to take five minutes of your own time either share it or calibrate it on your own.

But I can say that the Nuggets had the 6th worst defense in the playoffs

It’s almost as if you don’t understand impact. Why do you think that is? Look, i would like to hate Jokic as much as the next guy. The politics he represents are appalling (again, just my opinion). But despite how much i would like to just hate, his IMPACT on defense is positive. Sometimes us haters just got to admit defeat

Jokic needs an athletic pf like Gordon next to him to protect the rim he is the worst top center at rim protection. Jokic is a great offensive player but he can’t do the one job on defense that a center needs to do which is block and alter shots. That’s why I never will put him over guys like Wilt Kareem Russell Dream Shaq Duncan

[Rustyman]

I don't care what any player's counting stats are, unless you win at LEAST 2 championships, you do not belong in the top 20.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jokic has been the best player in the NBA the last 5 years.