Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[iggymcfrack]

Also, it’s not the highest offensive on/off season.

Wrong. Again.

Pbp stats has Kobe at +20.56 and Jokic at +20.41. nbarapm has Kobe at +20.6 and Jokic at 20.4. Multiple sources have it as the highest offensive on/off ever recorded.

You were just using cleaningtheglass a minute ago which is where I found Jokic with a large lead. Do you just pick and choose to find which sources are more favorable to Kobe?

[Primedeion]

Also, it’s not the highest offensive on/off season.

Wrong. Again.

Pbp stats has Kobe at +20.56 and Jokic at +20.41. nbarapm has Kobe at +20.6 and Jokic at 20.4. Multiple sources have it as the highest offensive on/off ever recorded.

You were just using cleaningtheglass a minute ago which is where I found Jokic with a large lead. Do you just pick and choose to find which sources are more favorable to Kobe?

cleaningtheglass also has the 09 Lakers as the #1 offense in the league. You were literally just saying that Kobe never played for the best offense in the league:

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around.

Do you even hear yourself?

[One_and_Done]

At this point it’s somewhat redundant to explain how Kobe is overrated on offense, but I’ll give it another crack.

Let’s look at just 2009 CP3 v.s 09 Kobe as an example. Paul’s per 100 numbers are particularly impressive this year; 32/8/16 on 599 TS%, with a 124 Ortg, and justifiably finishing 6th in DPOY voting

Now, if we took a simplistic approach, and assumed assists are worth 2.4 points each, then prima facie CP3 added 70+ pp100 to his team, compared to 54pp100 for Kobe. This is a simplistic approach obviously, but it’s intended to try and demonstrate how much more there is to generating offense than “ppg!”.

In reality CP3 was generating even more points of course, because of things like hockey assists, and because he’s scoring at better efficiency, or because he’s putting his team mates in their sweet spots so they can shoot at better efficiency, etc, but even by a flat numbers comp was CP3 waaayyy ahead. CP3 even rebounds more per 100 than Kobe in 09. He looks better than Kobe in everything really. The reason CP3’s teams have better offensive ratings is because setting guys up for easy and efficient baskets is often more important than actually scoring at so-so efficiency.

[penbeast0]

At this point it’s somewhat redundant to explain how Kobe is overrated on offense, but I’ll give it another crack.

Let’s look at just 2009 CP3 v.s 09 Kobe as an example. Paul’s per 100 numbers are particularly impressive this year; 32/8/16 on 599 TS%, with a 124 Ortg, and justifiably finishing 6th in DPOY voting

Now, if we took a simplistic approach, and assumed assists are worth 2.4 points each, then prima facie CP3 added 70+ pp100 to his team, compared to 54pp100 for Kobe. This is a simplistic approach obviously, but it’s intended to try and demonstrate how much more there is to generating offense than “ppg!”.

In reality CP3 was generating even more points of course, because of things like hockey assists, and because he’s scoring at better efficiency, or because he’s putting his team mates in their sweet spots so they can shoot at better efficiency, etc, but even by a flat numbers comp was CP3 waaayyy ahead. CP3 even rebounds more per 100 than Kobe in 09. He looks better than Kobe in everything really. The reason CP3’s teams have better offensive ratings is because setting guys up for easy and efficient baskets is often more important than actually scoring at so-so efficiency.

I'm sorry but where did you come up with the figure of an assist being worth 2.4 points? Is there any empirical evidence to indicate this especially with the extremely variable value of assists? I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, I just am hoping for some reasoning behind this number.

[One_and_Done]

At this point it’s somewhat redundant to explain how Kobe is overrated on offense, but I’ll give it another crack.

Let’s look at just 2009 CP3 v.s 09 Kobe as an example. Paul’s per 100 numbers are particularly impressive this year; 32/8/16 on 599 TS%, with a 124 Ortg, and justifiably finishing 6th in DPOY voting

Now, if we took a simplistic approach, and assumed assists are worth 2.4 points each, then prima facie CP3 added 70+ pp100 to his team, compared to 54pp100 for Kobe. This is a simplistic approach obviously, but it’s intended to try and demonstrate how much more there is to generating offense than “ppg!”.

In reality CP3 was generating even more points of course, because of things like hockey assists, and because he’s scoring at better efficiency, or because he’s putting his team mates in their sweet spots so they can shoot at better efficiency, etc, but even by a flat numbers comp was CP3 waaayyy ahead. CP3 even rebounds more per 100 than Kobe in 09. He looks better than Kobe in everything really. The reason CP3’s teams have better offensive ratings is because setting guys up for easy and efficient baskets is often more important than actually scoring at so-so efficiency.

I'm sorry but where did you come up with the figure of an assist being worth 2.4 points? Is there any empirical evidence to indicate this especially with the extremely variable value of assists? I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, I just am hoping for some reasoning behind this number.

It's just an illustrative example and guesstimate. If we assumed the bare minimum of 2 points, CP3 would still be ahead, though since 3pt shots exist that would be a pretty ridiculous baseline.

[ScrantonBulls]

I don't mean to be that guy, but Skap Attack's channel is pure garbage. It basically revolves around making very lazy and hateful videos towards certain players. I've never seen good and honest critiques by that creator.

[migya]

I don't mean to be that guy, but Skap Attack's channel is pure garbage. It basically revolves around making very lazy and hateful videos towards certain players. I've never seen good and honest critiques by that creator.

He doesn't analyse much, not that I watch it often, but I was interested in the views of what actually happened during Kobe's career for those that had access to much information during those years. It is interesting about how the media handled his criminal case and it does make sense that he was favourably treated. It is also plausible and actually reasonable that he didn't get more mvps because other players had their peak years around the mid 2000s, but he could have gotten one more around 07-09.

[jjgp111292]

Wrong. Again.

Pbp stats has Kobe at +20.56 and Jokic at +20.41. nbarapm has Kobe at +20.6 and Jokic at 20.4. Multiple sources have it as the highest offensive on/off ever recorded.

You were just using cleaningtheglass a minute ago which is where I found Jokic with a large lead. Do you just pick and choose to find which sources are more favorable to Kobe?

cleaningtheglass also has the 09 Lakers as the #1 offense in the league. You were literally just saying that Kobe never played for the best offense in the league:

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around.

Do you even hear yourself?

If you're having to fudge stats to this extent you might as well quit while you're ahead. You k ow damn well where most folks here are looking to for ORTG

[Primedeion]

You were just using cleaningtheglass a minute ago which is where I found Jokic with a large lead. Do you just pick and choose to find which sources are more favorable to Kobe?

cleaningtheglass also has the 09 Lakers as the #1 offense in the league. You were literally just saying that Kobe never played for the best offense in the league:

Kobe never played for the best offense in the league. Lakers peaked at 2nd in ORtg when Shaq was around.

Do you even hear yourself?

If you're having to fudge stats to this extent you might as well quit while you're ahead.

Nobody is "fudging" anything, champ. Cleaningtheglass is used literally all the time...including by the very guy I was talking to. Try again.

[NO-KG-AI]

It’s the exact opposite lol

[Primedeion]

Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

[Cavsfansince84]

Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

It's somewhere inbetween tbh. Kobe absolutely did get a way better defensive rep than he deserved after about 2003. He could turn it on in spurts but he was not a consistent force on that end at all. I used to watch him in those 05-07 years sometimes and he would take so many plays off on the other end which is fine since he was carrying the offense but he was still getting all def honors that he shouldn't have and kept getting them all the way out to like 2011 or 2012(though maybe he deserved a couple 2nd teams in the 08-10 years). Part of those ORtg's the Lakers were getting in the 08-10 years was also due to being a great reb team. Just as a reminder, this is the Lakers' ranks on off and total reb in the years they won with Kobe:
00: 5/1
01: 4/5
02: 14/3
09: 3/1
10: 4/2

So this played very well into Kobe's style of forcing up a lot of shots. Also having a big man like Pau who could pass, score and rebound like he did helped quite a bit. It wasn't just all Kobe on that end. Pau was a guy who was having big off impact even after he left the Lakers at age 32/33. The first year he joined Chicago they went from 28th in ORtg to 11th.

[kcktiny]

Kobe absolutely did get a way better defensive rep than he deserved after about 2003. He could turn it on in spurts but he was not a consistent force on that end at all.

Not at all, huh?

Then you care to explain to us how the Lakers were the 3rd best team in the league defensively (103.3 pts/100poss allowed) from 2008-09 to 2010-11 (only Boston and Orlando were better), especially when Bryant was named to the all-defensive 1st team each of those 3 seasons and no other Laker was?

[Primedeion]

Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

It's somewhere inbetween tbh. Kobe absolutely did get a way better defensive rep than he deserved after about 2003.

Yeah, there's a clear drop in the mid 00's, but he also doesn't get nearly as much credit as he should for the very clear and very obvious defensive resurgence we see from 08-10. He was easily All-Defense level over that stretch. It works both ways, buddy.

As for your other nonsense, lol @ describing an incredible offensive player and a great playmaker and a guy with consistently excellent scoring efficiency throughout his prime (106 TS+ from 01-09+ 2010 PS) as somebody who merely forced up shots.

You think you're slick.

Also, it's funny how you conveniently ignore 2008. That Lakers team was awful on the offensive glass (#23 in OREB%) and was still an amazing offensive team (+5.5 relative ORTG).

Nice try tho.

[Cavsfansince84]

Yeah, there's a clear drop in the mid 00's, but he also doesn't get nearly as much credit as he should for the very clear and very obvious defensive resurgence we see from 08-10. He was easily All-Defense level over that stretch. It works both ways, buddy.

As for your other nonsense, lol @ describing an incredible offensive player and a great playmaker and a guy with consistently excellent scoring efficiency throughout his prime (106 TS+ from 01-09+ 2010 PS) as somebody who merely forced up shots.

You think you're slick.

Also, it's funny how you conveniently ignore 2008. That Lakers team was awful on the offensive glass (#23 in OREB%) and was still an amazing offensive team (+5.5 relative ORTG).

Nice try tho.

Don't buddy me like there's really anything controversial going on here. There's nothing new being said about Kobe in this thread. He absolutely did have a tendency to force up shots and I have nothing against him at this point other than to honestly give my own opinions on him like I do anyone else. He also did benefit from teams that were built around his weaknesses. It's just that you are one of those fans on a crusade to lift up his legacy as much as possible and like I said, the truth is somewhere inbetween where you are and where some of his haters are. Kobe was also not an easy guy to get along with which drove Phil, the goat coach best known for getting along with players to ask the Lakers' f/o to trade him or else he was quitting as their hc. I can give him credit for who he was also see his weaknesses and also have him on my current ballot that I will post at some point.

[iggymcfrack]

Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

LOL, the only other wings playing big minutes in 2008 were Vlad Radmanovic and Luke Walton. And the Lakers' defense was actually better with Walton on the floor and Kobe on the bench than it was the other way around. So, he held up about as well as Luke Walton defensively during Odom's dominant defensive season where he carried the Lakers to a top 5 defense. Congrats.

All the analytics show that over the course of Kobe's career, the Lakers' defense was consistently better with him on the sideline or in street clothes than it was with him on the floor. That's 2 decades of different teammates. You can't just be like "well, I'm going to give him credit for what the team did whether he had any effect on it or not". You might as well give all the credit for the Lakers' good defenses to Derek Fisher. He actually had better advanced defensive numbers over the years than Kobe did.

[Primedeion]

Honestly if Kobe was actually half the defender his fanboys think he was, he probably would deserve a spot in the top 15.

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

LOL, the only other wings playing big minutes in 2008 were Vlad Radmanovic and Luke Walton. And the Lakers' defense was actually better with Walton on the floor and Kobe on the bench than it was the other way around. So, he held up about as well as Luke Walton defensively during Odom's dominant defensive season where he carried the Lakers to a top 5 defense. Congrats.

Yeah, you're right. Luke Walton was the primary Wing stopper and the best perimeter defender on the team.

Great post bro.

[iggymcfrack]

Kobe absolutely did get a way better defensive rep than he deserved after about 2003. He could turn it on in spurts but he was not a consistent force on that end at all.

Not at all, huh?

Then you care to explain to us how the Lakers were the 3rd best team in the league defensively (103.3 pts/100poss allowed) from 2008-09 to 2010-11 (only Boston and Orlando were better), especially when Bryant was named to the all-defensive 1st team each of those 3 seasons and no other Laker was?

Odom was by far the best and most consistent defender for the Lakers over that period. Over the years, the Odom lineups without Kobe were on average 5 points better defensively than the Kobe lineups without Odom. When Metta joined in 2010, he was elite as well. He had 10 seasons with a better defensive on/off than Kobe ever managed for a single season.

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career. He put in enough effort from 2008-2010 to quit being an outright liability like he was before the Pau trade, but even at his peak, he was still slightly above average at best.

[iggymcfrack]

Wow. Good thing he has seasons like ’08, where he was by far the best perimeter defender and the primary wing stopper on a top-five defense, while also being at least as good a scorer and offensive player as anyone in the league. Or ’09, where he generated incredible offensive impact on the No. 1 offense in the league and was an excellent defensive guard.

If only Kobe haters weren’t so hilariously ignorant about his game and career, we might actually get somewhere.

LOL, the only other wings playing big minutes in 2008 were Vlad Radmanovic and Luke Walton. And the Lakers' defense was actually better with Walton on the floor and Kobe on the bench than it was the other way around. So, he held up about as well as Luke Walton defensively during Odom's dominant defensive season where he carried the Lakers to a top 5 defense. Congrats.

Yeah, you're right. Luke Walton was the primary Wing stopper and the best perimeter defender on the team.

Great post bro.

There was no wing stopper. That's the point. Kobe slightly outperformed the Lakers other wings because they were both poor defenders, but whether Kobe was on the floor or Luke Walton, it didn't make any difference. Odom was the only player who actually made an impact that season.

[Snakebites]

I clicked the video and am still mourning the 30 seconds I wasted before turning it off.

The video’s title says it all- it’s not made by a serious person.