Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[Primedeion]

Yeah, there's a clear drop in the mid 00's, but he also doesn't get nearly as much credit as he should for the very clear and very obvious defensive resurgence we see from 08-10. He was easily All-Defense level over that stretch. It works both ways, buddy.

As for your other nonsense, lol @ describing an incredible offensive player and a great playmaker and a guy with consistently excellent scoring efficiency throughout his prime (106 TS+ from 01-09+ 2010 PS) as somebody who merely forced up shots.

You think you're slick.

Also, it's funny how you conveniently ignore 2008. That Lakers team was awful on the offensive glass (#23 in OREB%) and was still an amazing offensive team (+5.5 relative ORTG).

Nice try tho.

Don't buddy me like there's really anything controversial going on here.

There's nothing controversial, buddy. It's just more of the same.

Taking one of the very best offensive players in history and describing his style as somebody who just forced shots, and trying to discredit him with that OREB nonsense but conveniently ignore seasons like 08 where he's anchoring an incredible offense with terrible off rebounding.

You think you're slick. You people are about as subtle as a hammer to the face.

[Primedeion]

LOL, the only other wings playing big minutes in 2008 were Vlad Radmanovic and Luke Walton. And the Lakers' defense was actually better with Walton on the floor and Kobe on the bench than it was the other way around. So, he held up about as well as Luke Walton defensively during Odom's dominant defensive season where he carried the Lakers to a top 5 defense. Congrats.

Yeah, you're right. Luke Walton was the primary Wing stopper and the best perimeter defender on the team.

Great post bro.

There was no wing stopper. That's the point.

You don't have a point, buddy. He was absolutely the primary wing stopper and by far the best perimeter defender on the team. Keep deluding yourself into believing 08 Odom was some sort of DPOY guy when he wasn't even on the same planet. It's hilarious to watch.

[Cavsfansince84]

There's nothing controversial, buddy. It's just more of the same.

Taking one of the very best offensive players in history and describing his style as somebody who just forced shots, and trying to discredit him with that OREB nonsense but conveniently ignore seasons like 08 where he's anchoring an incredible offense with terrible off rebounding.

You think you're slick. You people are about as subtle as a hammer to the face.

It's because you are so eager to twist what people say to suit the narratives you push here buddy. I was not giving any sort of in depth summary of Kobe as an offensive player. All I did was mention that having a top 5 rebounding team is always helpful when you have an offensive centerpiece known for forcing up shots at times. ok? If this is too much for you to handle then maybe go to some other board where players won't ever get the least bit of criticism. As I said, this is nothing controversial to say that about Kobe's playstyle. He was absolutely known for forcing up shots quite often but at the same time it worked well enough for his teams to win 2 titles with him in that role. Which the rebounding plays a part in.

[Primedeion]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

This is comical even for Kobe hater standards. Even if you boil things down to exclusively stuff like DRAPM, which completely ignores role, situation, and minutes, he still has seasons like 2010 where Engelmann's PI DRAPM has him at +1.3, which is ELITE for a guard.

And then there's 2001 when his DRAPM was at +1.33, which, again is elite for a guard. In fact, the list of guards who top it is ridiculously small and virtually all of them are either playing smaller roles or much fewer minutes (or both)

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rrc9kbxsycpu58r4znax5/AMZoufrR6-FoB-TLZLaNGFc/2001.txt?rlkey=eg9x73rfhtk2nimnkg4xslr30&e=2&dl=0

B-b-b-but NEVER an impact player at ANY point.

[Primedeion]

There's nothing controversial, buddy. It's just more of the same.

Taking one of the very best offensive players in history and describing his style as somebody who just forced shots, and trying to discredit him with that OREB nonsense but conveniently ignore seasons like 08 where he's anchoring an incredible offense with terrible off rebounding.

You think you're slick. You people are about as subtle as a hammer to the face.

It's because you are so eager to twist what people say to suit the narratives you push here buddy.

Nah. I'm just calling out nonsense, buddy. Again, why did you conveniently ignore 08 when he anchored an incredible offense that was terrible on the offensive glass? Oh. Wait. I know. You aren't slick. You aren't subtle. Nice try tho.

[iggymcfrack]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

This is comical even for Kobe hater standards. Even if you boil things down to exclusively stuff like DRAPM, which completely ignores role, situation, and minutes, he still has seasons like 2010 where Engelmann's PI DRAPM has him at +1.3, which is ELITE for a guard.

And then there's 2001 when his DRAPM was at +1.33, which, again is elite for a guard. In fact, the list of guards who top it is ridiculously small and virtually all of them are either playing smaller roles or much fewer minutes (or both)

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rrc9kbxsycpu58r4znax5/AMZoufrR6-FoB-TLZLaNGFc/2001.txt?rlkey=eg9x73rfhtk2nimnkg4xslr30&e=2&dl=0

B-b-b-but NEVER an impact player at ANY point.

You can cherry pick all you want and find the seasons where he's above average by the analytics while ignoring the ones where he's terrible, but Englemann's RAPM which you're citing here rates Kobe as a bottom 10% defender in the league over the course of his career.

[Cavsfansince84]

Nah. I'm just calling out nonsense, buddy. Again, why did you conveniently ignore 08 when he anchored an incredible offense that was terrible on the offensive glass? Oh. Wait. I know. You aren't slick. You aren't subtle. Nice try tho.

Dude, you are picking and choosing one year here or there while I am speaking about some generalities over a 13 year span and didn't go into depth at all and you literally are clinging to 'forced up some shots' as though that was me giving my summation of him as an offensive player. That's incredibly disingenuous and ridiculous for you to do but then again, that's what you choose to do because it allows you to see me as this strawman you need me to be in order to gloss over the other things I said which have validity. So w/e. You can say whatever you want in reply to this but I'm not continuing this with you because its a bad faith argument and I have to spend a few sentences in each reply to straighten out what you are trying to twist my replies into which is a waste of my time. ftr, I have Kobe on my next ballot for the peaks project and I am not biased against him. I have him basically next to Dirk in terms of peaks which you might find inaccurate but that's roughly where he deserves to be.

[Primedeion]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

This is comical even for Kobe hater standards. Even if you boil things down to exclusively stuff like DRAPM, which completely ignores role, situation, and minutes, he still has seasons like 2010 where Engelmann's PI DRAPM has him at +1.3, which is ELITE for a guard.

And then there's 2001 when his DRAPM was at +1.33, which, again is elite for a guard. In fact, the list of guards who top it is ridiculously small and virtually all of them are either playing smaller roles or much fewer minutes (or both)

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rrc9kbxsycpu58r4znax5/AMZoufrR6-FoB-TLZLaNGFc/2001.txt?rlkey=eg9x73rfhtk2nimnkg4xslr30&e=2&dl=0

B-b-b-but NEVER an impact player at ANY point.

You can cherry pick all you want and find the seasons where he's above average by the analytics

No, he's elite for a guard in those seasons. You can ignore the data all you want, but YOU'RE the one who said he wasn't an impact defender at any point. And you're the one using his career data when we're talking about peak seasons. You can't even keep track of your own nonsense.

[Primedeion]

Nah. I'm just calling out nonsense, buddy. Again, why did you conveniently ignore 08 when he anchored an incredible offense that was terrible on the offensive glass? Oh. Wait. I know. You aren't slick. You aren't subtle. Nice try tho.

Dude, you are picking and choosing one year here or there

Nah. It's just funny how you painted him, and it's funny how you ignore the seasons that totally crap on the picture you were trying to paint. Again, you aren't slick, buddy.

[iggymcfrack]

This is comical even for Kobe hater standards. Even if you boil things down to exclusively stuff like DRAPM, which completely ignores role, situation, and minutes, he still has seasons like 2010 where Engelmann's PI DRAPM has him at +1.3, which is ELITE for a guard.

And then there's 2001 when his DRAPM was at +1.33, which, again is elite for a guard. In fact, the list of guards who top it is ridiculously small and virtually all of them are either playing smaller roles or much fewer minutes (or both)

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rrc9kbxsycpu58r4znax5/AMZoufrR6-FoB-TLZLaNGFc/2001.txt?rlkey=eg9x73rfhtk2nimnkg4xslr30&e=2&dl=0

B-b-b-but NEVER an impact player at ANY point.

You can cherry pick all you want and find the seasons where he's above average by the analytics

No, he's elite for a guard in those seasons. You can ignore the data all you want, but YOU'RE the one who said he wasn't an impact defender at any point. And you're the one using his career data when we're talking about peak seasons. You can't even keep track of your own nonsense.

Any decent player's going to have a year or two where his numbers look good. Do you have a link to a complete database of Englemann's RAPM throughout Kobe's prime? If you do, I'd love to see it. I guarantee it doesn't look good overall. In lieu of that, I'm going to look at the 97-14 RAPM which I do have a complete database for. Here's Kobe by year:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055600/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm-by-player-g-n

(positive is good in this sample)
2001: +0.9
2002: -1.0
2003: +0.1
2004: -0.6
2005: -1.1
2006: -1.2
2007: -0.5
2008: +0.5
2009: +0.4
2010: +1.3
2011: -0.9
2012: +0.2

As you can see, he oscillates between -1.2 and +1.3. You can call the seasons he's on the high end "elite" and the seasons he's on the low end "terrible", but it all averages out and there's not much rhyme or reason.

Meanwhile, here's Derek Fisher:
2001: +1.4
2002: +1.0
2003: +0.2
2004: +0.5
2005: +0.9
2006: +1.8
2007: +2.2
2008: +1.2
2009: +1.0
2010: -0.5
2011: +0.2
2012: +0.6

His highs are higher than Kobe's highs. He has 3 seasons where he beats Kobe's best year. He also has 11 seasons where he beats Kobe's average DRAPM over that period. Would you say Derek Fisher was an "elite defensive guard" from 2001-2002 and 2005-2009 for performing as good as Kobe's 2001 season or better during those seasons? He certainly shows much more consistent signals for positive impact than Kobe does.

Notice also that Fisher posts his best DRAPMs in years he's away from Kobe while Kobe posts his worst DRAPMs in those seasons. Is it possible that D-Fish covering for Kobe's weaknesses is the reason the Lakers were able to maintain such good defenses in the years he shared a backcourt with Kobe while the Lakers' DRtg dropped to dead last in the entire league the year he left? I mean it's certainly more plausible than giving Kobe credit for them.

Just look at what the defense looks like with Kobe on the floor when he doesn't have other elite defenders carrying him:
2005: 111.1 (-5.0 rDRtg)
2006: 106.5 (-0.3 rDRtg)
2007: 107.9 (-1.4 rDRtg)

Why is the Lakers' defense so poor in these years if Kobe's the reason for their success? Keep in mind the 05/06 Lakers had the best defense in the entire NBA with Kobe on the bench.

[Cavsfansince84]

Nah. It's just funny how you painted him, and it's funny how you ignore the seasons that totally crap on the picture you were trying to paint. Again, you aren't slick, buddy.

None of this is funny at all. It's just you desperately clinging to straws which have no basis in reality. Somehow the idea of Kobe being a volume scorer who forced up shots at times(which was prob the single biggest criticism of him throughout his career) is totally wrong and you twisted that into being my description of him as an offensive player when its totally obvious I was pointing that out in relation to my other point about him playing on title teams with great rebounding which complimented that style of play. The other thing was his defense being not nearly as good as the rep he gained via all def honors past 03 outside of 08-10 where I said he was ok to good but not great. I think all data agrees with this other than some on here trying to give him undue credit for some of his team's DRtg's.
So that's where I stand on this and like I also said, I still have his peak roughly in line with Dirk's so I don't think I am lowballing him or anything of the sort. He's not what his homers make him out to be and not what his haters do. He's roughly equal to Dirk in terms of peak and career(could easily have him higher or lower based on what you want to focus on).

[Primedeion]

You can cherry pick all you want and find the seasons where he's above average by the analytics

No, he's elite for a guard in those seasons. You can ignore the data all you want, but YOU'RE the one who said he wasn't an impact defender at any point. And you're the one using his career data when we're talking about peak seasons. You can't even keep track of your own nonsense.

Any decent player's going to have a year or two where his numbers look good.

Again, you can't keep track of your own nonsense. You literally said he wasn't an impact player AT ANY point of his career. I just gave you multiple seasons where his DRAPM looks elite for a guard, and this is BEFORE adjusting for role, situation, or minutes.

He still has seasons like 2010 where Engelmann's PI DRAPM has him at +1.3, which is ELITE for a guard.

And then there's 2001 when his DRAPM was at +1.33, which, again is elite for a guard. In fact, the list of guards who top it is ridiculously small and virtually all of them are either playing smaller roles or much fewer minutes (or both)

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/rrc9kbxsycpu58r4znax5/AMZoufrR6-FoB-TLZLaNGFc/2001.txt?rlkey=eg9x73rfhtk2nimnkg4xslr30&e=2&dl=0

B-b-b-but NEVER an impact player at ANY point.

We also have James Brocato's 2007-2011 DRAPM, which has him higher than Wade, who made MULTIPLE All-Defense teams over that stretch and who is generally painted as an elite defensive guard by the overwhelming consensus.

Yes, there was a clear drop in his defense in the mid 00's, but there was also also a very clear and very obvious defensive resurgence from 08-10.

James Brocato's 2007-2011 DRAPM:
CP3: +0.6
Kobe: +0.5
Wade: +0.4

Paul made a bunch of All-Defense teams over that span.

Wade made multiple All-Defense teams over that span.

Kobe? Oh, but his all "REpUTaYioN" and he was NEVER an impact defender. If he was never an impact over that stretch, then neither were Paul or Wade, buddy.

And this study includes 2011 when he was past his prime and riddled with injuries.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

It's hilarious how you are keep incapable of admitting you were wrong.

Intraocular's pure defensive APM also has consistently as a positive in the seasons that I've highlighted as All-Defense worthy in this thread

2000: +0.5
2001: +1.1
2008: +0.7
2009: +0.7
2010: +1.2

The only one that doesn't look as good by this one particular stat is 03, but none of this stuff is gospel, champ.

Lets look at his defensive portfolio in the season that I was ACTUALLY talking/focusing on about initially:

--leading minutes guy on a top five defense.
--primary wing stopper on a top five defense
--by far the best perimeter defender on a top five defense
--#1 among ALL guards in Intraocular's total defensive APM pts
--top 10ish among ALL guards in Intraocular's pure defensive APM, and MANY of the guards ahead of him or either playing a smaller or playing significantly fewer minutes (or both)
--very clear positive by DRAPTOR +/-, Defensive EPM, and Defensive xRAPM and that's BEFORE adjusting for role or minutes
--Engellman's 08 DRAPM has him rocking the same DRAPM as peak 09 Wade
--top five in DPOY voting, #1 in All-Defense votes (tied), 1st-Team All-Defense
--qualitative analysis by professional scouts. For example, here's a scouting report on 08 Bryant:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kobe-Bryant-1851/

Defense: Easily the best perimeter defender on the Los Angeles roster. Absolutely great when he wants to be. Will get in his mans jersey, stay low, and move his feet to make his man give the ball up. Shows very good lateral quickness and the ability to hawk the ball. Possesses enough strength to defend his man in the post as well. Always gets a hand up on jump shooters. Displays great timing and anticipation when shooting into passing lanes for deflections. Will look to block shots when he sees his teammates get beat. Rebounds at a high rate. Excellent across the board. -

Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kobe-Bryant-

This is where you people are especially hilarious. We can't use numbers --especially and particularly after they adjust for minutes and role. We can't use accolades and accomplishments. We can't use film, or analysis from professional scouts, or team success. Nothing will satisfy you people.

Again, you bringing up his CAREER numbers is completely irreverent when we're talking about his peak seasons.

I mean, do you understand that players have primes and peaks?

Do you understand that players change from season to season and often by fairly significant margins?

Do you understand that his CAREER numbers are completely irrelevant when we're discussing how good of a defender he was in, say, 2008?

How many times do I have to say it before it gets through to you?

Also, the total strawman at the end there was real cute.

[Primedeion]

Nah. It's just funny how you painted him, and it's funny how you ignore the seasons that totally crap on the picture you were trying to paint. Again, you aren't slick, buddy.

None of this is funny at all.

No, it's hilarious. You thought you'd get away with painting him in a certain light, and got immediately educated. You thought you'd get away with that offensive rebounding stuff, but conveniently ignored the seasons that completely and totally disprove that nonsense. It's definitely funny.

[kcktiny]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

Just - clueless.

One of the greatest defensive SGs in league history, all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, all voted on by NBA head coaches, and that is your assessment of his defense?

Englemann's RAPM which you're citing here rates Kobe as a bottom 10% defender in the league over the course of his career

And this is the nonsense you believe? A mathematical concoction done by a person that clearly did not watch Bryant during his career.

[falcolombardi]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

Just - clueless.

One of the greatest defensive SGs in league history, all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, all voted on by NBA head coaches, and that is your assessment of his defense.

I feel like baseball people would use to say this about derek jeter and his ultra questionable golden glpves then it was proven how mediocre he actually was as a defender

You cannot blindly trust voting awards, even those who are voted by coaches

[Primedeion]

Kobe wasn't an impact player defensively at any point in his career.

Just - clueless.

One of the greatest defensive SGs in league history, all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, all voted on by NBA head coaches, and that is your assessment of his defense.

I feel like baseball people would use to say this about derek jeter and his ultra questionable golden glpves then it was proven how mediocre he actually was as a defender

Except Kobe has a bunch of legit All-Defense seasons and an elite defensive peak (01) and Jeter has zero and a not a single season that even approaches excellent.

Also, numbers work a lot better for baseball than they do for basketball.

[falcolombardi]

Just - clueless.

One of the greatest defensive SGs in league history, all-defensive 1st team 9 times, all-defensive 2nd team 3 times, all voted on by NBA head coaches, and that is your assessment of his defense.

I feel like baseball people would use to say this about derek jeter and his ultra questionable golden glpves then it was proven how mediocre he actually was as a defender

Except Kobe has a bunch of legit All-Defense seasons and an elite defensive peak (01) and Jeter has zero and a not a single season that even approaches excellent.

Also, numbers work a lot better for baseball than they do for basketball.

Yet that didnt stop jeter from earning a defensive superstar rep did it?

Biases happen and voter awards in -anything-cam have them

And kobe shares a lot of similarities with jeter as a beloved star of a dinasty team in a big city whose defensive rep was related to some very selected highlights here and there and general "aura" of a big star and/or "killer" reputation

[Primedeion]

Biases happen and voter awards in -anything-cam have them

And kobe shares a lot of similarities with jeter as a beloved star of a dinasty

Yeah, except they're not similar at all. Kobe ranks far higher as a player in his sport and deserved a bunch of those All-Defense teams.

Yeah, he was making All-Defense at 21 and 22 years old because of his reputation. You got it, buddy.

And yeah, playing for the Lakers really helped LBJ rack up those defensive accolades. He's not a big star at all.

[kcktiny]

Yeah, he was making All-Defense at 21 and 22 years old because of his reputation.

This is the ironic part.

Posters in this thread hating on an all-time great defender failing to see the fact that Bryant was a great defender from the get-go, all-defensive team from the ages of 21-25 (1999-00 to 2003-04).

[falcolombardi]

Biases happen and voter awards in -anything-cam have them

And kobe shares a lot of similarities with jeter as a beloved star of a dinasty

Yeah, except they're not similar at all. Kobe ranks far higher as a player in his sport and deserved a bunch of those All-Defense teams.

Yeah, he was making All-Defense at 21 and 22 years old because of his reputation. You got it, buddy.

And yeah, playing for the Lakers really helped LBJ rack up those defensive accolades. He's not a big star at all.

Yeah, he was instead making the all star in 98 as a backup purely on performance merits instead i assume

if you are gonna act condescendent like that you got to make better examples for your arguments at least

Kobe was a extremely popular player before he was close to a star in actual play and made all D teams c5past the point it was obvious he was coasting completely on that end and focusing on offense