How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

To me, whether Jokic is a center or not is irrelevant. Jokic should be a great defender because that is half the game. Jordan was great both ends.

Jokic should anchor a defense because he should if he wants to give himself the best chance of winning at the highest level, and if he wants to set an example for all of his teammates, not because he is a center.

They don't win in 23 without him playing defence.

I think it is more like, if he plays elite defense, he would have 3 titles right now.

Jordan was a very good defender, but Pippen and at times Grant or Rodman were his equals or better. But again...why are we comparing Jokic to Jordan in a thread where we're asking if Jokic can be a Oscar Roberson or a Kobe Bryant. Not if he can top Jordan, Leborn or Kareem.

[WestbrookGOATed]

Good lord these Jokic stans are getting annoying.

[f4p]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Curry was the best player in the finals in 2015. Don't even try going there. And he's got a strong cause both years with KD.

He certainly doesn't have a better case for being better in the finals, even if you want to say he was the best player on the warriors (I would hard disagree with 2018 and think they were as close to 1A and 1B as possible in 2017).

[Mephariel]

To me, whether Jokic is a center or not is irrelevant. Jokic should be a great defender because that is half the game. Jordan was great both ends.

Jokic should anchor a defense because he should if he wants to give himself the best chance of winning at the highest level, and if he wants to set an example for all of his teammates, not because he is a center.

What kind of response is this? Players can't do everything, it is a team sport.

Since when the best player should do everything for his teammates. If his teammates don't play defense to make up for the offensive load Jokic carries, they should be replaced. All great offensive players have defensive players to make up for their offense.

Jordan wasn't a great defender, we need to stop lying to people about "two-way players" that were merely average on defense their entire career.

Jordan played great defense for one year out of his entire career. The year he won DPOY. After that, he want back to being a lazy defender and gambling.

In the beginning of his career, Jordan was James Harden level of standing around and getting loss and gambling.

Then he started being better at gambling and eventually used his motor on offense for defense and had two great years of world breaking help defense (1986-1987 and 1988-1989 season) using his athleticism.

After his DPOY, he got by on reputation. He wasn't a great defender. He was average, like most players that have huge offensive loads. He stood around, gambled, often loss and out of position but occasionally would make a spectacular play.

Jordan as this great defender that was locking people up is a myth. He was never that.

Jordan was never a lazy defender. Stop lying and writing fan faction please. I watched the games in the 90s with MJ. Offensive players didn't even want to test him. Jordan isn't a great defender is not a serious take. The guy tries on defense even in Washington. Just ask Ron Mercer. He didn't just win DPOY, he was all-defense first team 9 times.

Also, you are just being obtuse. I don't even need to use Jordan as an example. What about Lebron? What about Olajuwon? What about Duncan? What about Adul-Jabbar? Great players can play both ways and often do.

And also, what does team sport has to do with anything? You are responsible for your performance. It is like saying you can slack off on your job because your company is one team. Do that see what your boss say. Jokic isn't playing defense for his teammates, he is playing defense to win and to set an example for his team. That is what high performers do in every company.

[dhsilv2]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Curry was the best player in the finals in 2015. Don't even try going there. And he's got a strong cause both years with KD.

He certainly doesn't have a better case for being better in the finals, even if you want to say he was the best player on the warriors (I would hard disagree with 2018 and think they were as close to 1A and 1B as possible in 2017).

Please by all means explain to me how Curry wasn't better in 2015. You know where he averaged 26, 6 assists, and the entire other team build their game around him?

We can get into how KD wasn't even guarded in the 2017 and 2018 finals...but at least that has nuance. I mean if you average 50 a game with a falling apart Jefferson on you because the team is so scared of another guy...you're cleary not the best player. But at least that requires you to know a little about basketball. It's till clean. But 2015 we talking about the basics.

[dhsilv2]

To me, whether Jokic is a center or not is irrelevant. Jokic should be a great defender because that is half the game. Jordan was great both ends.

Jokic should anchor a defense because he should if he wants to give himself the best chance of winning at the highest level, and if he wants to set an example for all of his teammates, not because he is a center.

What kind of response is this? Players can't do everything, it is a team sport.

Since when the best player should do everything for his teammates. If his teammates don't play defense to make up for the offensive load Jokic carries, they should be replaced. All great offensive players have defensive players to make up for their offense.

Jordan wasn't a great defender, we need to stop lying to people about "two-way players" that were merely average on defense their entire career.

Jordan played great defense for one year out of his entire career. The year he won DPOY. After that, he want back to being a lazy defender and gambling.

In the beginning of his career, Jordan was James Harden level of standing around and getting loss and gambling.

Then he started being better at gambling and eventually used his motor on offense for defense and had two great years of world breaking help defense (1986-1987 and 1988-1989 season) using his athleticism.

After his DPOY, he got by on reputation. He wasn't a great defender. He was average, like most players that have huge offensive loads. He stood around, gambled, often loss and out of position but occasionally would make a spectacular play.

Jordan as this great defender that was locking people up is a myth. He was never that.

Jordan was never a lazy defender. Stop lying and writing fan faction please. I watched the games in the 90s with MJ. Offensive players didn't even want to test him. Jordan isn't a great defender is not a serious take. The guy tries on defense even in Washington. Just ask Ron Mercer. He didn't just win DPOY, he was all-defense first team 9 times.

Also, you are just being obtuse. I don't even need to use Jordan as an example. What about Lebron? What about Olajuwon? What about Duncan? What about Adul-Jabbar? Great players can play both ways and often do.

And also, what does team sport has to do with anything? You are responsible for your performance. It is like saying you can slack off on your job because your company is one team. Do that see what your boss say. Jokic isn't playing defense for his teammates, he is playing defense to win and to set an example for his team. That is what high performers do in every company.

How many MJ games have you seen in the last 3 years?

[Rubios]

According to ESPN’s projected ranking for next season (I have some discrepancies with it, though) Jokic will be playing with only two top-50 guys: AG (#40) and Murray (#46).

But let’s keep ignoring this, something that had literally never happened before in the history of the League.

[DimesandKnicks]

I have absoltuely no idea how to calibrate this. So if it only takes you five minutes to do so, do so. Instead of accusing someone who said they weren't interested re-litigating this issue with you again, then proceeded to do so and spend time mining through data of arguing in bad faith.

You keep posting stats saying Jokic is at xyz based on his difference. Take the average, which the metrics you already pulled does. And just do the math. 2 points per shot, this reduces shots by this and jokic does this. The difference is the impact. This isn't complex math. I've done just that a few times for you to simply dismiss it and thus I'm not going to keep doing it when you don't engage.

Meanwhile you keep changing the metrics. One thing it per game, one is per 100 another is percentages. Jokic lead all centers in minutes, he's going to be high on a lot of good and bad per game metrics because he played more minutes than other centers. The guy was 4th in minutes per game after all. The next center was KAT at 20th and then Sabonis at 23rd. Also showing the "see bad defenders do this" doesn't really work if all the guys you call bad are also the leaders in minutes.

The problem remains you keep posting stats that show Jokic is bad at what we're generally in agreement with. Our difference in agreement is on the impact of those weaknesses and the offsets in his defensive play making. But forget all the offsets. I'm asking you to breakdown what what those field goal percentage difference would mean vs just the average. It's the (average FG%-Jokic Defensive FG%)*2*volume...that's the math. You keep posting the stats. You don't respond when I do it. Unless you think rim shots are 3's...then this is a very easy starting point.

I’m saying Jokic is bad at defense based off the many things he’s bad at defense at

Maybe I’m just dumb but the bold isn’t a formula that I can input numbers in. U keep saying calibrating this is so easy. I keep telling you idk how to and u keep giving a vague directive as to how to do so instead of just doing what u call simple than giving an abstract process of out to derive at an impact that I don’t agree has any value.

Your a bad faith argued. And I’m good on you.

Meanwhile you keep changing the metrics. One thing it per game, one is per 100 another is percentages.

This is just an out right lie. I gave u per game data, how is percentages compare vs the average. I dont believe I offered one per 100 metric

[dhsilv2]

I have absoltuely no idea how to calibrate this. So if it only takes you five minutes to do so, do so. Instead of accusing someone who said they weren't interested re-litigating this issue with you again, then proceeded to do so and spend time mining through data of arguing in bad faith.

You keep posting stats saying Jokic is at xyz based on his difference. Take the average, which the metrics you already pulled does. And just do the math. 2 points per shot, this reduces shots by this and jokic does this. The difference is the impact. This isn't complex math. I've done just that a few times for you to simply dismiss it and thus I'm not going to keep doing it when you don't engage.

Meanwhile you keep changing the metrics. One thing it per game, one is per 100 another is percentages. Jokic lead all centers in minutes, he's going to be high on a lot of good and bad per game metrics because he played more minutes than other centers. The guy was 4th in minutes per game after all. The next center was KAT at 20th and then Sabonis at 23rd. Also showing the "see bad defenders do this" doesn't really work if all the guys you call bad are also the leaders in minutes.

The problem remains you keep posting stats that show Jokic is bad at what we're generally in agreement with. Our difference in agreement is on the impact of those weaknesses and the offsets in his defensive play making. But forget all the offsets. I'm asking you to breakdown what what those field goal percentage difference would mean vs just the average. It's the (average FG%-Jokic Defensive FG%)*2*volume...that's the math. You keep posting the stats. You don't respond when I do it. Unless you think rim shots are 3's...then this is a very easy starting point.

I’m saying Jokic is bad at defense based off the many things he’s bad at defense at

Maybe I’m just dumb but the bold isn’t a formula that I can input numbers in. U keep saying calibrating this is so easy. I keep telling you idk how to and u keep giving a vague directive as to how to do so instead of just doing what u call simple than giving an abstract process of out to derive at an impact that I don’t agree has any value.

Your a bad faith argued. And I’m good on you.

Meanwhile you keep changing the metrics. One thing it per game, one is per 100 another is percentages.

This is just an out right lie. I gave u per game data, how is percentages compare vs the average. I dont believe I offered one per 100 metric

You keep posting field goal differentials to show Jokic is a bad rim protector. What's complicated about calculating that? It's like you found a post on reddit with stats against Jokic and just re-posted it here without knowing what any of it means.

[f4p]

Curry was the best player in the finals in 2015. Don't even try going there. And he's got a strong cause both years with KD.

He certainly doesn't have a better case for being better in the finals, even if you want to say he was the best player on the warriors (I would hard disagree with 2018 and think they were as close to 1A and 1B as possible in 2017).

Please by all means explain to me how Curry wasn't better in 2015. You know where he averaged 26, 6 assists, and the entire other team build their game around him?

We can get into how KD wasn't even guarded in the 2017 and 2018 finals...but at least that has nuance. I mean if you average 50 a game with a falling apart Jefferson on you because the team is so scared of another guy...you're cleary not the best player. But at least that requires you to know a little about basketball. It's till clean. But 2015 we talking about the basics.

Well I thought by mentioning 2017 and 2018 that I showed I was talking about the KD finals. I agree he was easily the best in 2015. As for KD, he averaged 35 ppg on 70 TS% in 2017, which are historic numbers, and in 2018 Steph wasn't even particularly amazing, with a 59 TS% against a weak defense. At some point "gravity" can't just be something that makes Steph being better axiomatic. Other people playing really well can surpass Steph. And KD played very well in the finals. I mean 2018 KD clears Steph in the overall playoffs in on/off, PER, WS48, and BPM. Hard to see how that's not the better player.

[threethehardway]

To me, whether Jokic is a center or not is irrelevant. Jokic should be a great defender because that is half the game. Jordan was great both ends.

Jokic should anchor a defense because he should if he wants to give himself the best chance of winning at the highest level, and if he wants to set an example for all of his teammates, not because he is a center.

What kind of response is this? Players can't do everything, it is a team sport.

Since when the best player should do everything for his teammates. If his teammates don't play defense to make up for the offensive load Jokic carries, they should be replaced. All great offensive players have defensive players to make up for their offense.

Jordan wasn't a great defender, we need to stop lying to people about "two-way players" that were merely average on defense their entire career.

Jordan played great defense for one year out of his entire career. The year he won DPOY. After that, he want back to being a lazy defender and gambling.

In the beginning of his career, Jordan was James Harden level of standing around and getting loss and gambling.

Then he started being better at gambling and eventually used his motor on offense for defense and had two great years of world breaking help defense (1986-1987 and 1988-1989 season) using his athleticism.

After his DPOY, he got by on reputation. He wasn't a great defender. He was average, like most players that have huge offensive loads. He stood around, gambled, often loss and out of position but occasionally would make a spectacular play.

Jordan as this great defender that was locking people up is a myth. He was never that.

Jordan was never a lazy defender. Stop lying and writing fan faction please. I watched the games in the 90s with MJ. Offensive players didn't even want to test him. Jordan isn't a great defender is not a serious take. The guy tries on defense even in Washington. Just ask Ron Mercer. He didn't just win DPOY, he was all-defense first team 9 times.

Also, you are just being obtuse. I don't even need to use Jordan as an example. What about Lebron? What about Olajuwon? What about Duncan? What about Adul-Jabbar? Great players can play both ways and often do.

And also, what does team sport has to do with anything? You are responsible for your performance. It is like saying you can slack off on your job because your company is one team. Do that see what your boss say. Jokic isn't playing defense for his teammates, he is playing defense to win and to set an example for his team. That is what high performers do in every company.

Now, you are writing the classic "Jordan was the do it all winner that nobody wanted to come across" and "It's like working at a company."

This is the prime of example of sports being corporation loving middle class cope.

LeBron is a lazy defender too outside until his last two years with the Cavs and his stint in Miami where he was forced to play the elite defense due to how weak the Heat were at the 4 and 5. He was the biggest, most athletic player on the team, he didn't have a choice.

Most of the All-Time GOAT perimeter players were lazy defenders because they carry a heavy offensive load.

They tried in spurts or used their energy to make splash plays. They weren't defensive stoppers.

Magic Johnson was lazy
LeBron is lazy
Kobe was lazy
Jordan was lazy

These guys are not defensive players with good technique or motor. They were try-hard defenders at best during certain times in their careers and for their career, they grade out at average or neutral defensers.

LeBron proved he could anchor an entire defense by himself and when he didn't have to do it anymore, he stopped doing it because he was worth more on offense.

Every star perimeter offensive player does it.

To think they don't is being naive.

"Jordan tries his best on defense."

Yeah, when he was young and wanted to prove a point.

When he got Pippen, you think he was flying around like in his DPOY year?

Fans kill me when they call star GOAT offensive players great defenders off of reputation.

[dhsilv2]

He certainly doesn't have a better case for being better in the finals, even if you want to say he was the best player on the warriors (I would hard disagree with 2018 and think they were as close to 1A and 1B as possible in 2017).

Please by all means explain to me how Curry wasn't better in 2015. You know where he averaged 26, 6 assists, and the entire other team build their game around him?

We can get into how KD wasn't even guarded in the 2017 and 2018 finals...but at least that has nuance. I mean if you average 50 a game with a falling apart Jefferson on you because the team is so scared of another guy...you're cleary not the best player. But at least that requires you to know a little about basketball. It's till clean. But 2015 we talking about the basics.

Well I thought by mentioning 2017 and 2018 that I showed I was talking about the KD finals. I agree he was easily the best in 2015. As for KD, he averaged 35 ppg on 70 TS% in 2017, which are historic numbers, and in 2018 Steph wasn't even particularly amazing, with a 59 TS% against a weak defense. At some point "gravity" can't just be something that makes Steph being better axiomatic. Other people playing really well can surpass Steph. And KD played very well in the finals. I mean 2018 KD clears Steph in the overall playoffs in on/off, PER, WS48, and BPM. Hard to see how that's not the better player.

2018 is really misleading when you look at it that way. Curry had a terrible game 3 (it was a 4 game series) and KD to his credit went nuts in game 3. Curry was for example the leading scorer in games 1 2 and 4. So that's not "just gravity". There's a reasonable case for Curry as the best player 3 of the 4 games. If you want to give it to KD for having the better "average" game since they were close in games 1 and 2 that's fine. But by no means was KD the clear better guy here.

And I don't think we need to even go to the famous plays where 3 guys ran to Curry leaving KD open for a transition dunk. Or the clips of the Cav's coaches flat out saying their entire game plan was about limiting Curry.

[Mephariel]

What kind of response is this? Players can't do everything, it is a team sport.

Since when the best player should do everything for his teammates. If his teammates don't play defense to make up for the offensive load Jokic carries, they should be replaced. All great offensive players have defensive players to make up for their offense.

Jordan wasn't a great defender, we need to stop lying to people about "two-way players" that were merely average on defense their entire career.

Jordan played great defense for one year out of his entire career. The year he won DPOY. After that, he want back to being a lazy defender and gambling.

In the beginning of his career, Jordan was James Harden level of standing around and getting loss and gambling.

Then he started being better at gambling and eventually used his motor on offense for defense and had two great years of world breaking help defense (1986-1987 and 1988-1989 season) using his athleticism.

After his DPOY, he got by on reputation. He wasn't a great defender. He was average, like most players that have huge offensive loads. He stood around, gambled, often loss and out of position but occasionally would make a spectacular play.

Jordan as this great defender that was locking people up is a myth. He was never that.

Jordan was never a lazy defender. Stop lying and writing fan faction please. I watched the games in the 90s with MJ. Offensive players didn't even want to test him. Jordan isn't a great defender is not a serious take. The guy tries on defense even in Washington. Just ask Ron Mercer. He didn't just win DPOY, he was all-defense first team 9 times.

Also, you are just being obtuse. I don't even need to use Jordan as an example. What about Lebron? What about Olajuwon? What about Duncan? What about Adul-Jabbar? Great players can play both ways and often do.

And also, what does team sport has to do with anything? You are responsible for your performance. It is like saying you can slack off on your job because your company is one team. Do that see what your boss say. Jokic isn't playing defense for his teammates, he is playing defense to win and to set an example for his team. That is what high performers do in every company.

Now, you are writing the classic "Jordan was the do it winner that nobody wanted to come across" and "It's like working at a company."

This is the prime of example of sports being middle class corporation loving middle class cope.


LeBron is a lazy defender too outside until his last two years with the Cavs and his stint in Miami where he was forced to play the elite defense due to how weak the Heat were at the 4 and 5. He was the biggest, most athletic player on the team, he didn't have a choice.

Most of the All-Time GOAT perimeter players were lazy defenders because they carry a heavy offensive load.

They tried in spurts or used their energy to make splash plays. They weren't defensive stoppers.

Magic Johnson was lazy
LeBron is lazy
Kobe was lazy
Jordan was lazy

These guys are not defensive players with good technique or motor. They were try-hard defenders at best during certain times in their careers and for their career, they grade out at average or neutral defenses.

LeBron proved he could anchor an entire defense by himself and when he didn't have to do it anymore, he stopped doing it because he was worth more on offense.

Every star perimeter offensive player does it.

To think they don't is being naive.

"Jordan tries his best on defense."

Yeah, when he was young and wanted to prove a point.

When he got Pippen, you think he was flying around like in his DPOY year?

Fans kill me when they call star GOAT offensive players great defenders off of reputation.

Most All-star GOAT perimeter player are lazy on defense is not a serious argument. Jordan was a 9 time all-defense. So he only tried for 9 years? Is that really your argument? Anybody can make up stuff using unprovable words like "lazy." I can make up stuff too. Kobe was crazy, and he was imaging an alien invasion while playing ball. Besides, why are you limiting this argument to GOATs? By your logic, anyone who averaged 25+ points must be lazy on defense right? Since they need to reserve energy for scoring.

Also, if Jordan was lazy on defense, what does that make Jokic? A corpse? Does that really help your argument? So Giannis is lazy on defense? What does that make Jokic? A lamppost?

[Rubios]

Again, I don’t get this thread.
Raise your hand if you don’t have Jokic among the 15 best players of all time (not the greatest).
And if that’s the case, say who your #15 is.

[f4p]

Please by all means explain to me how Curry wasn't better in 2015. You know where he averaged 26, 6 assists, and the entire other team build their game around him?

We can get into how KD wasn't even guarded in the 2017 and 2018 finals...but at least that has nuance. I mean if you average 50 a game with a falling apart Jefferson on you because the team is so scared of another guy...you're cleary not the best player. But at least that requires you to know a little about basketball. It's till clean. But 2015 we talking about the basics.

Well I thought by mentioning 2017 and 2018 that I showed I was talking about the KD finals. I agree he was easily the best in 2015. As for KD, he averaged 35 ppg on 70 TS% in 2017, which are historic numbers, and in 2018 Steph wasn't even particularly amazing, with a 59 TS% against a weak defense. At some point "gravity" can't just be something that makes Steph being better axiomatic. Other people playing really well can surpass Steph. And KD played very well in the finals. I mean 2018 KD clears Steph in the overall playoffs in on/off, PER, WS48, and BPM. Hard to see how that's not the better player.

2018 is really misleading when you look at it that way. Curry had a terrible game 3 (it was a 4 game series) and KD to his credit went nuts in game 3. Curry was for example the leading scorer in games 1 2 and 4. So that's not "just gravity". There's a reasonable case for Curry as the best player 3 of the 4 games. If you want to give it to KD for having the better "average" game since they were close in games 1 and 2 that's fine. But by no means was KD the clear better guy here.

And I don't think we need to even go to the famous plays where 3 guys ran to Curry leaving KD open for a transition dunk. Or the clips of the Cav's coaches flat out saying their entire game plan was about limiting Curry.

3 guys ran at curry because it was transition and everyone was scrambling. I don't think they actually did the math and thought a Steph 3 was more valuable than a wide open KD dunk. KD scored more and more efficiently by significant margins in both finals and I'm certainly not giving Steph a defensive advantage nor am I just going to do the the thing where Steph has infinite value because of gravity no matter how else he plays or anyone else plays.

[picc]

The most curious part about the KD/Steph finals MVP debates are the Steph side pretending defense doesn't exist. You can find this phenomena in any discussion on the matter and it's always equally befuddling. I'm assuming its because once it's considered, its even more of a blowout for the trophy honors as Kevin was vital to GS on defense during both series' and widely acknowledged as so.

Its close between that and pretending all of Kevin "I scored 31ppg on 65%TS against Lebron's Heat without Steph when I was a worse player" Durant's points were only scored as a result of Curry's existence. But disavowing an entire side of the court is its own level of sneaky and devious, and I don't think any other player is darling enough to their fans to get away with it.

[Mirotic12]

Again, I don’t get this thread.
Raise your hand if you don’t have Jokic among the 15 best players of all time (not the greatest).
And if that’s the case, say who your #15 is.

He's not one of the top 15 NBA players ever.

The recency bias is very strong in these forums.

[hardenASG13]

Again, I don’t get this thread.
Raise your hand if you don’t have Jokic among the 15 best players of all time (not the greatest).
And if that’s the case, say who your #15 is.

You're putting way too much into some MVPs won over guys like Giannis, Embiid and Luka, who to this point are all very good but not great players. That and these advanced rating systems.

There are legitimate questions about his defense and losing whenever he comes across a quality team in the playoffs. I'm sorry, no team in 2023 was that. You almost always have to go through at least a team significantly better than any they faced to win that title. I don't respect that title much, and haven't seen anything out of Jokic or Denver since then to change that stance. Had the historic collapse vs Minnesota (better than any team they faced in 2023, easily eliminated following round), and he kinda no showed both game 7s this year. Those are the games where guys on this list have to deliver. Or at least not come out nervous and passive, as he did in both.

There are questions about him not being aggressive enough on offense in the playoffs. Sometimes when they need him to aggressively try to score, he defers and only takes his high percentage shots (that high TS% though!) If his teammates are so bad, that means he's gotta attack 1v1s a ton more than he does. I don't know if he improvises and creates shots well enough, as stars have to do that late in playoff series. I question how valuable his assist numbers are, though they play great into formulas. Your main playmaker playing in the high post, doing alot of handoffs/handoff screens(many of which are illegal) and having guys cut off him isn't as effective as having a player slice up a defense off the dribble and getting the defense scrambling and collapsing. Jokic runs a pretty strict set of actions and while they are great for his numbers, I've never seen him overwhelm another good team in the playoffs at all. He accumulates assists while his team lacks dribble penetration partially as a result of him being their playmaker up top and not being able to dribble without turning his shoulder into the defender. He's been in MVP conversation for 5 years, short for an ATG. Let's see how long he stays there.

In no order

Jordan
Lebron
Magic
Kareem
Dr J
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
Bird
Chamberlain
Russell
Robertson
Curry
Durant
Kobe
Arguably: Barkley, Malone (Karl and Moses), Dirk, KG, Wade, West, Giannis (bucks have won at a higher clip, similar individual accolades), Baylor, maybe a couple more. He can firmly get into the top 15 though with more team success and sustaining MVP/near MVP level for 4 or 5 more years.

[Iwasawitness]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.



Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

Jokic is not the greatest offensive player to ever play, that's a ridiculous claim. MJ won 10x scoring titles plus has averaged at least 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Meanwhile Jokic has zero scoring titles and has never managed to avarage 30 ppg over a season even in this era of inflated scoring.

You might not care about his defense but the reality is that a center should anchor the defense and provide rim protection. I can't imagine him trying to defend Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem or Shaq for example. Jokic is a great player but to be in the discussion for a top 10 all time you need to play a really good defense especially if you are a center.

I don't know if Jokic is the greatest offensive force to ever play the game but just going by how much points per game MJ scored to prove he's better is a pretty ridiculous argument. Jokic has been able to carry an offense in a way MJ never could. As an overall offensive force, I'd feel very comfortable putting Jokic ahead of MJ.

[dhsilv2]

Well I thought by mentioning 2017 and 2018 that I showed I was talking about the KD finals. I agree he was easily the best in 2015. As for KD, he averaged 35 ppg on 70 TS% in 2017, which are historic numbers, and in 2018 Steph wasn't even particularly amazing, with a 59 TS% against a weak defense. At some point "gravity" can't just be something that makes Steph being better axiomatic. Other people playing really well can surpass Steph. And KD played very well in the finals. I mean 2018 KD clears Steph in the overall playoffs in on/off, PER, WS48, and BPM. Hard to see how that's not the better player.

2018 is really misleading when you look at it that way. Curry had a terrible game 3 (it was a 4 game series) and KD to his credit went nuts in game 3. Curry was for example the leading scorer in games 1 2 and 4. So that's not "just gravity". There's a reasonable case for Curry as the best player 3 of the 4 games. If you want to give it to KD for having the better "average" game since they were close in games 1 and 2 that's fine. But by no means was KD the clear better guy here.

And I don't think we need to even go to the famous plays where 3 guys ran to Curry leaving KD open for a transition dunk. Or the clips of the Cav's coaches flat out saying their entire game plan was about limiting Curry.

3 guys ran at curry because it was transition and everyone was scrambling. I don't think they actually did the math and thought a Steph 3 was more valuable than a wide open KD dunk. KD scored more and more efficiently by significant margins in both finals and I'm certainly not giving Steph a defensive advantage nor am I just going to do the the thing where Steph has infinite value because of gravity no matter how else he plays or anyone else plays.

I feel like I already explained this but lets take a second to talk about the difference in gravity and a game plan.

Gravity is a team pulling 3 guys over to Curry and leaving KD because it was a scramble and everyone is worried about an open Curry shot because it's just about the best shot in the history of basketball (other than maybe a curry free throw). We see this all the time with Curry no matter who he plays against and we give him a lot of credit because he plays like an NFL player setting screens and blocks out there to maximize it. This is traditional gravity and of course Curry added value with plays like this.

There however is more to this with the Cavs. The Cavs were down right not going to let Curry beat them and in doing so dared KD to beat them. Now the play mentioned above could be argued was a combo of both. The players were so over conditioned to stopping Curry because of their prep that his gravity plus their coaching staff compounded it here. But it's the fact that KD played both series fully in man converge and often with the worst defender on the court on him. Certainly the worst height appropriate one, obviously Irving isn't going be on him. This was most seen in the 2017 series as the Cavs just seemingly didn't care how many points KD scored on them. They just weren't going to leave Curry. So if you want to look at that series you can very reasonably give games 1 2 and 4 to KD as the best warrior. You can argue any game in that series really, but those are I think fairly clear in terms of box score. Now if you don't give Curry credit for his ability to make the game even easier for KD in those series because of the attention and game planning. But he pretty clearly did his job, getting 10 or 11 assists in 4 of the 5 games and only had one really bad game in terms of turnovers from the pressure. The 2018 series however, Curry was just the better of the two in 2 of the games and we had one game where they were pretty even and again Curry had a stinker in game 3. If you want to average that out and give it to KD, ignore the game plans. That's fine. But it isn't hard at all to make a very easy case Curry was the better player in 3 of those 4 games without leaning on gravity.

But I do caution trying to argue that all people are talking about is "gravity" when the 2017 series was very much about how Curry and KD responded to a rather extreme game plan which allowed KD to basically see the softest defense of his playoff career while 3-4 guys were almost constantly working to stop Curry from going off.