Top 25 peaks of the 2001-25: #9-#10 Spots

[Cavsfansince84]

2018 I could see. He was still really, really good (2nd in the league in xRAPM behind Curry) and if the Rockets win the title, they’d be doing it by beating the most unstoppable juggernaut of all-time with CP3 as the go-to guy in crunch time. If the Suns won the title in 2021, I’d be giving that absolutely zero consideration as a peak season. Even if Giannis still played just as well and Paul absolutely balled out like crazy he was too limited at that point.

I think it’s very illustrative though how a much weaker version of Paul than the peak player he was in 2014 and 2015 can get so close to winning a title as his team’s best player. It shows how much effect role players and fluke coincidences can have on the outcome of seasons and shows the lie to arguments like “if he was really that good, he would have won a ring”.

idk if he was actually that much weaker in those years. His numbers being down doesn't necessarily mean he's that weaker of a version. pg's have a way of retaining value at a later age due to increased bbiq and ability to see the game. He was definitely still really good in 2018 and even in 2021 was 5th in mvp voting. In terms of sustaining rs value he's among the best of all time but that doesn't mean he deserves a higher spot in a peaks project by that virtue. Much like I don't think that Stockton is going to place that high in the next one. Maybe, we should consider that his lack of size or loss of some athleticism actually becomes more of an issue in the playoffs and keeps him from reaching a gear that some other atg's could reach at times. Which might not show up in a random Thursday game in December. Harden's sort of in the same boat.

[iggymcfrack]

Following up on a point I made earlier, here’s single game BPMs for the types of high leverage games where Kobe and CP3 have potentially struggled over the course of their careers:

Kobe
2000 G5 vs. Pacers: -9.9
2000 G6 vs. Pacers: -1.2
2001 G5 vs. Sixers: 4.4
2004 G5 vs. Pistons: -1.5
2008 G5 vs. Celtics: 4.9
2008 G6 vs. Celtics: -5.9
2009 G5 vs. Magic: 17.0
2010 G5 vs. Celtics: 15.5
2010 G6 vs. Celtics: 13.8
2010 G7 vs. Celtics: 0.3

CP3
2008 G6 vs. Spurs: 7.6
2008 G7 vs. Spurs: 8.8
2011 G6 vs. Lakers: 0.4
2012 G6 vs. Grizzlies: -1.1
2012 G6 vs. Grizzlies: 4.1
2013 G6 vs. Grizzlies: 12.2
2014 G6 vs. Warriors: -3.9
2014 G7 vs. Warriors: 8.0
2014 G6 vs. Thunder: 10.7
2015 G6 vs. Spurs: 8.9
2015 G7 vs. Spurs: 17.3
2015 G6 vs. Rockets: 10.3
2015 G7 vs. Rockets: 7.7
2017 G6 vs. Jazz: 10.5
2017 G7 vs. Jazz: -6.3
2019 G6 vs. Warriors: 5.3
2020 G6 vs. Rockets: 12.0
2020 G7 vs. Rockets: 7.0
2021 G6 vs. Lakers: -8.3
2021 G6 vs. Clippers: 29.0
2021 G6 vs. Bucks: 4.3
2022 G6 vs. Pelicans: 18.5
2022 G6 vs. Mavericks: 1.6
2022 G7 vs. Mavericks: -3.6

As you can see, Chris Paul was generally much more consistent in these big game situations than Kobe. I’m only using Finals for Kobe so that does make for a little tougher opponents on average, but also Chris Paul’s going all the way to his age 37 season while Kobe gets cut off at age 31 when he last reaches the Finals. After reviewing his entire playoff career, I definitely don’t think there’s anything about Chris Paul that causes him to underperform in high leverage situations.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think one of the things people are fighting against here is the reality that CP3's body simply doesn't hold up. It's either that or something else and he had an 11-14 year window to get it done. No one is going to look back 20 years from now and talk about how great he was in that 2nd rd series where his team lost the 3-1 lead to a good but not great Houston team. People will look back and talk about how great Giannis was in the 2021 finals though or Kawhi was in the 2019 run or in 2017 before he got taken out or even Kobe in the 09 wcf/finals. That's the difference.

[iggymcfrack]

I think one of the things people are fighting against here is the reality that CP3's body simply doesn't hold up. It's either that or something else and he had an 11-14 year window to get it done. No one is going to look back 20 years from now and talk about how great he was in that 2nd rd series where his team lost the 3-1 lead to a good but not great Houston team. People will look back and talk about how great Giannis was in the 2021 finals though or Kawhi was in the 2019 run or in 2017 before he got taken out or even Kobe in the 09 wcf/finals. That's the difference.

Through 2014 (the year I’m voting as Chris Paul’s peak), he played in 53 of a possible 53 playoff games. He did have a lot of trouble with his body holding up after that and would go on to miss a lot of key playoff games, but I don’t see how it has a significant effect on who he was as a player at his peak.

Giannis had much more severe injury problems. In his peak season, he missed games 5 and 6 of the Eastern conference finals tied 2-2 the year after suffering a season-ending playoff injury and right before having 2 of the next 3 seasons end due to playoff injuries.

Giannis’ body didn’t hold up better than Paul’s. His teammates did. If Middleton, Jrue, and Brook didn’t pull the Bucks out of the fire against the Hawks, Giannis would be remembered closer to Embiid than he would be to Kawhi. Likewise, if the Clippers bench could have just managed to not completely implode in 2014, we’d probably be remembering Chris Paul as the guy who ended the Heatles dynasty and the Clippers curse.

[Cavsfansince84]

Through 2014 (the year I’m voting as Chris Paul’s peak), he played in 53 of a possible 53 playoff games. He did have a lot of trouble with his body holding up after that and would go on to miss a lot of key playoff games, but I don’t see how it has a significant effect on who he was as a player at his peak.

Giannis had much more severe injury problems. In his peak season, he missed games 5 and 6 of the Eastern conference finals tied 2-2 the year after suffering a season-ending playoff injury and right before having 2 of the next 3 seasons end due to playoff injuries.

Giannis’ body didn’t hold up better than Paul’s. His teammates did. If Middleton, Jrue, and Brook didn’t pull the Bucks out of the fire against the Hawks, Giannis would be remembered closer to Embiid than he would be to Kawhi. Likewise, if the Clippers bench could have just managed to not completely implode in 2014, we’d probably be remembering Chris Paul as the guy who ended the Heatles dynasty and the Clippers curse.

It's not totally fair per se but at least CP3's team did split the two games he was out and let's face it, the series was there for the winning. Blake played pretty well iirc but Reddick became a turnover machine who couldn't shoot. Giannis then went onto the finals though and has an all time performance. So I agree that things could have gone differently for Giannis but this is how it always is with these types of discussions with CP3. It ends up in the realm of hypotheticals for obvious reasons.

[eminence]

Copying most reasoning from last thread if that's okay. Could see moving other candidates moving above Paul on future ballots if I see something convincing.

9. Kobe Bryant - 2009 - Great/versatile offensive talent/scorer, PO proven, shown with two fairly different big men stars (Shaq/Pau). Older Kobe felt much more inevitable offensively than the earlier variants. Defensively fine (not All-D worthy). Not a top tier playmaker for others, but elite ballhandling/turnover control with strong scoring is a great place to be with your primary perimeter offensive star. MJ/Kobe/SGA have arguably shown it as the most successful offensive archetype of the 3pt era.

10. Dirk Nowitzki - 2011 - RS peak was earlier, '03, '05-'07, but I'm generally a bit unimpressed with those PO appearances (injury in '03, horrific defensive performance against Nash in '05, terrible all around in '07). '06 would be a reasonable pick here. Not a perimeter guy, so a bit harder to get him the ball, but provided you can get it to him, Dirk in this era gave you just about the highest offensive baseline there's ever been. When he wasn't being asked to play C and had a real rim protector next to him was plenty useful on defense/on the glass. The names played make the PO run seem a bit more impressive than it was in my estimation, but the names are absolutely elite - Kobe/KD/Bron might be the best lineup ever.

11. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander - 2025 - RS only SGA would be in my top 5, and in the future I expect him to move up. But yes, I was underwhelmed by the PO runs so far. He's young and should have plenty of opportunities with the team OKC has around him. Another player I see as roughly in the MJ mold, does a bit more of his getting into position on the ball as opposed to MJ/Kobe. Another decent defending lead guard, defensive load is pretty light with how deep the Thunder are with perimeter defenders.

12. Chris Paul - 2015 - Sometimes the better team/player can lose, and that's what I'm going with for the 2015 Clippers/CP3 vs the Rockets. Pretty bad luck they had to beat a team as tough as the Spurs in the 1st round, while the Rockets conserved themselves against a Monta Ellis led Mavs squad. The Clippers around CP3 don't wow me anywhere - good but not elite #2 (compared to guys like Draymond/Westbrook in the same era), no real star #3, poor bench, Docs coaching (overhated imo, but he's certainly not Phil). Anywho, CP3 - before Haliburton's emergence I thought Paul might be the last elite playmaking focused guard we'd see for a long time. A fun style I'm glad hasn't been lost. Mid range master. About as good of defender as possible given the combo of size/offensive load.

[Cavsfansince84]

12. Chris Paul - 2015 - Sometimes the better team/player can lose, and that's what I'm going with for the 2015 Clippers/CP3 vs the Rockets. Pretty bad luck they had to beat a team as tough as the Spurs in the 1st round, while the Rockets conserved themselves against a Monta Ellis led Mavs squad. The Clippers around CP3 don't wow me anywhere - good but not elite #2 (compared to guys like Draymond/Westbrook in the same era), no real star #3, poor bench, Docs coaching (overhated imo, but he's certainly not Phil). Anywho, CP3 - before Haliburton's emergence I thought Paul might be the last elite playmaking focused guard we'd see for a long time. A fun style I'm glad hasn't been lost. Mid range master. About as good of defender as possible given the combo of size/offensive load.

I'm not sure I agree on the weakness of the roster around CP3. Blake finishes 8th in mvp voting(which is prob overrating him a bit) but still he's a legit all nba guy and compliments CP3 pretty well as does DeAndre who is 3rd in dpoy voting and all nba. Then you have Crawford off the bench who is 3rd in 6th man voting and Redick as CP3's off ball guard shooting 10 3's a game at 44%. Plus Barnes. So no surprise they were #1 in ORtg that year and still ok on defense. If anything they should have won more games in the rs and had an easier path with hca in the playoffs. 2 all nba players and one of the best 3pt shooters of all time is about as much as CP3 could ask for I would say. They should have won 60 and then not had the tough draw.

[ReggiesKnicks]

12. Chris Paul - 2015 - Sometimes the better team/player can lose, and that's what I'm going with for the 2015 Clippers/CP3 vs the Rockets. Pretty bad luck they had to beat a team as tough as the Spurs in the 1st round, while the Rockets conserved themselves against a Monta Ellis led Mavs squad. The Clippers around CP3 don't wow me anywhere - good but not elite #2 (compared to guys like Draymond/Westbrook in the same era), no real star #3, poor bench, Docs coaching (overhated imo, but he's certainly not Phil). Anywho, CP3 - before Haliburton's emergence I thought Paul might be the last elite playmaking focused guard we'd see for a long time. A fun style I'm glad hasn't been lost. Mid range master. About as good of defender as possible given the combo of size/offensive load.

I'm not sure I agree on the weakness of the roster around CP3. Blake finishes 8th in mvp voting(which is prob overrating him a bit) but still he's a legit all nba guy and compliments CP3 pretty well as does DeAndre who is 3rd in dpoy voting and all nba. Then you have Crawford off the bench who is 3rd in 6th man voting and Redick as CP3's off ball guard shooting 10 3's a game at 44%. Plus Barnes. So no surprise they were #1 in ORtg that year and still ok on defense. If anything they should have won more games in the rs and had an easier path with hca in the playoffs. 2 all nba players and one of the best 3pt shooters of all time is about as much as CP3 could ask for I would say. They should have won 60 and then not had the tough draw.

These arguments you keep making are incredibly lazy and keep moving the goal posts.

In this post, you say "should have won 60", yet they won 56 games and CP3 played all 82 games. What else did you want CP3 to do?

FWIW, the Clippers didn't win 60 games because they had a god-awful bench. At first glance...

Clippers w/ CP3: +12.54
Clippers w/o CP3: -8.74

The Clippers played at a 70+ win pace with CP3, and an 18-win pace without him. I mean, I guess we could penalize CP3 for this, but I don't see the point. They had old Matt Barnes and old Jamal Crawford as their 5th starter and 6th man, with Spencer Hawes, Big Baby, and Austin Reeves as the players who rounded out their bench. This is a putrid team.

[Cavsfansince84]

These arguments you keep making are incredibly lazy and keep moving the goal posts.

In this post, you say "should have won 60", yet they won 56 games and CP3 played all 82 games. What else did you want CP3 to do?

FWIW, the Clippers didn't win 60 games because they had a god-awful bench. At first glance...

Clippers w/ CP3: +12.54
Clippers w/o CP3: -8.74

The Clippers played at a 70+ win pace with CP3, and an 18-win pace without him. I mean, I guess we could penalize CP3 for this, but I don't see the point. They had old Matt Barnes and old Jamal Crawford as their 5th starter and 6th man, with Spencer Hawes, Big Baby, and Austin Reeves as the players who rounded out their bench. This is a putrid team.

I'm not moving any goal posts. At this point people have already voted. Them winning more rs games prob wouldn't have made any difference since it was still the old seeding format. That's not even an argument, it's just an offhand comment based on them winning the same number of games as the Rockets who had a much worse srs.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote:

1. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (25 > 24 > 23)
2. Kobe Bryant (08 > 09 > 10)
3. Kevin Durant (14 > 16 > 17)
4. Steve Nash (05 > 07 > 06)

Man I'm finding it hard to actually settle on a vote, so here I am once again posting at the last minute.

The top 3 were on my previous ballot in the same order, so the vast majority of this agonizing came over just one spot.

Here are the main other guys I was thinking about (in alpha order):

Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Paul

I actually started writing this post a couple other times with different guys in the 4th spot, and in the end, here I am siding with the guy my objectivity can be trusted least with. I may regret it, but I'd probably end up with regrets no matter who I chose.

So, I think Manu is maybe the important guy to focus on because it puts the question of minutes front and center. If we were going per-minute, he'd top this list, and I do think many overrate how much of a minutes disadvantage he really has... but I can't say there's no disadvantage there. I don't know where to place him, but at this point I'm still holding off.

Folks may wonder why I chose Nash if minutes are so important to me, but in critical playoff games, Nash regularly played more than 40 minutes, so I don't disagree with the assessment that peak Nash had major endurance limitations.

And meanwhile, to the surprise of no one, I'd say Nash has a serious case for GOAT offensive peak & prime with the best-for-his-height passing in history and superhuman shooting to boot. I'd also say that reports of his extremely awful defense are quite exaggerated. In practice his defense wasn't really bad, he just had specific limitations a coach should be looking to compensate for in scheme.

[Jaivl]

#9 Kobe Bryant (2008 > 09)
#10 Kawhi Leonard (2017 > 16 > 19)
Same last two as in my last ballot.

#11 Dirk Nowitzki (2011)
Every other one-man-offense that's not a big defensive liability is already on board. Not only led a juggernaut +19.4 team with Kidd and Terry on court, but was around 80% of its offense. The ability to create a title favourite with a team of 90% defensive specialists is probably unparallelled at this point on the list: 116 ORTg without Kidd on the court... The GOAT shooting+rebounding combo.

#12 Kevin Durant (2017 > 16 > 14)
I guess it's his time?

Great/versatile offensive talent/scorer, PO proven, shown with two fairly different point guard stars (WB/Curry). Older KD felt much more inevitable from long distance than the earlier variants, but at the expense of rim pressure. Defensively fine (not All-D worthy). Not a top tier playmaker for others, but elite ballhandling/turnover control for the size with strong scoring is a great place to be with your primary perimeter offensive star.

Next: Shai, Paul, Nash, Harden. And if you take Davis 2020 playoffs at face value, he should be right next to Wade, I think. I'll probably vote him next.

[Joao Saraiva]

1. Kobe 2006
Biggest scoring explosiveness of this time frame. Kobe was efficient, lead a really bad team to the playoffs with performances that were absolutely amazing. Sure he had some bad shooting nights too, but overall he was very efficient. The numbers might say others could have the same impact, but to get wins with that team I think scoring explosion was needed and more often than not Kobe delievered on superb volume. I'm very impressed with that run and consider it his peak.

2. Dirk Nowiztki 2011
The prototype of what the mdoern PF is changed the game, and this was his finest year. Not in the RS, I still have 06 ahead, but his playoffs were legendary. Defeated HOF after HOF and this year makes justice to him as a good playoffs performer, as he had somewhat of a bad reputation prior to it, and quite unfair to be honest. Among the best midrange shooters ever to play game, great rebounder with superb footwork.

3. Kawih Leonard 2019
Fundamental piece on a great defensive squad and definitely the catalyst on the other end. Took a team no one believed in to the ring and had an amazing playoff run. Unstoppable with his jumper and very versatile on offense ended the GSW dinasty in the finals (fortunate with injuries but that's part of the game). He might be the best two way player available (at least as a wing I believe he is).

4. SGA 2025
OKC was one of the best teams in this time frame. I think it's right that the leader is in the next few spots. Offensive catalyst and the only really good shot creator of his team, carried that burden and carried it well, along with great defenders. Very good 1st step, smooth finisher and one of the toughest to guard in the perimeter. Small drop by his own ridiculously good standards from RS to PS, but still very good.

[iggymcfrack]

Damn, I listed out all the votes yesterday and it seemed like it was gonna be:

9. Kawhi
10. SGA

for sure, but Kobe's making a hell of a late push. Not sure what's gonna happen now.

[-Luke-]

9. SGA 2025
10. Dirk Nowitzki 2011

Same as in the last thread.

11. Kobe Bryant 2009
Could have gone with 2006, but the lack of playoffs sample size compared to 2009 gave me some pause. Great carrying job, though. Primedeion made a great case for Kobe here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2475218&start=80#p119669374.

Like many others, I've gone back and forth on Kobe, but I appreciate him more the older I get. Played at an MVP level in the 2009, probably his best title run, but at least the best regular season/post season combo. Was still pretty athletic, could turn it up on defense. Pretty decent efficiency in the playoffs, especially in the Denver series. Results don't lie. Having Kobe outside of the top already feels a bit exaggerated, but it shows how many great peaks we had this century.

12. Kawhi Leonard 2017
Best mix of defense and offense in his career. A true MVP level season. Great playoff run. I do not punish him for his injury, but it's a shame that it happened. Would've been great to see how far the Sppurs can compete with the Warriors with a healthy Kawhi. I don't think they bet them, but he may have been the best player in this series. 55/48/97 shooting in the first round series against a Grizzlies team admittedly on its last legs.

Durant is probably the next on the list for me. We'll see.

[eminence]

#12 Kevin Durant (2017 > 16 > 14)
I guess it's his time?

Great/versatile offensive talent/scorer, PO proven, shown with two fairly different point guard stars (WB/Curry). Older KD felt much more inevitable from long distance than the earlier variants, but at the expense of rim pressure. Defensively fine (not All-D worthy). Not a top tier playmaker for others, but elite ballhandling/turnover control for the size with strong scoring is a great place to be with your primary perimeter offensive star.

Next: Shai, Paul, Nash, Harden. And if you take Davis 2020 playoffs at face value, he should be right next to Wade, I think. I'll probably vote him next.

Is funny.

Lower on KD because that playmaking portion oversells him by a lot. Kobe is a good-not-elite playmaker, with an elite handle and elite turnover avoidance.

KD is a mediocre playmaker, elite handle only *for his size* and is outright turnover prone.

It all adds up to a playmaker package that isn't even close to Kobe imo.

[eminence]

Related to the above, Tatum another solid ballot contender for next round, think I prefer him over KD as well. Better playmaker and defender, though obviously not the scorer KD is.

[ReggiesKnicks]

How did Dirk win affect games?

Dirk's offensive skill set is truly a unicorn. Most modern big men who are All-Time Great offensive forces are either putting immense pressure on the rim or are incredible passers. Dirk can pressure the rim, though in 2011 this wasn't to the same level as it was in the mid-2000's. Dirk can make the right pass, but isn't a passing savant like Jokic or anything close to it.

Instead, Dirk utilized his innate ability to score at will, contested, from the mid-range, to open up the court. Typically putting immense pressure on the rim leads to opening up the court for your teammates, creating gravity at or near the rim and thus warping the defense around the rim to generate open looks elsewhere. Shaq was the poster child for this while Giannis is the Temu version. What Dirk did was have a similar warping affect as Shaq, except from the mid-range area. This led to something different and unique, gravity pulling away from both the perimeter and at the rim, the two best shots in the NBA. Having gravity releasing the pressures from both the rim and perimeter allowed for Dirk and the Mavericks to take advantage of two areas on the court where the Mavericks would have a clear advantage. Of course, Dirk was so good in the mid-range he also had an advantage there as well.

Dirk's 2011 shot-profile
At Rim + In-Paint: 25.8%
Mid-Range: 60.0%
3P: 14.2%

Dirk didn't just dominate in the mid-range, he specifically dominated on the blocks, notable the right block, which he favoured to the left block. This led to easy Chandler finishes if help came from the baseline, or easy 3P shots often from Kidd or with Kidd starting to swing the ball to the opposite corner/wing from the gravity created by Dirk.

I'm fascinated by Dirk in-part because when he is on the court compared to not, there is only one indicator which sees a gigantic shift. Often times, we see Assist% or TOV% or OREB% have drastic differences with offensive anchors. With Dirk, we simply see massive shifts in eFG% throughout the entirety of his prime, often times with the 3 indicators I mentioned prior as seeing no change with our without Dirk.

Dirk's skill-set will always be incredibly valuable, but let's first just look at 2011 and contextualize Dirk. He didn't affect the team's offense in many indicators except for the most important, so why is that?

It is simple. Half-Court offensive rating in 2011 was about 88.6 Offensive Rating. Dirk's mid-range generated 101.3 Offensive Rating alone. That's a +12.7 lift in Offensive Rating. This is why the mid-range shot holds incredible value when shot at a near 50% rate. Half-court offenses are still <50% Offensive Rating (Approaching 100 Offensive Rating but still below).

After sitting on this and chewing through my thoughts, I have no reason but to put Kobe next to Dirk. They were, after all, providing similar lifts, box-score and more importantly impacting the game in similar fashion with their mid-range offensive gravity having the main emphasis for their offense and success.

As for the next two, I haven't seen the same arguments to knock of CP3 where his level-of-play is the highest on my short-list but the end-results are the lowest, which knocks him down a couple spots. His 2015 campaign, by the numbers, is one of the best seasons ever during the regular season and in typical CP3 fashion, came up short in the post-season.

1. Dirk Nowitzki 2011
2. Kobe Bryant 2009 (2008)
3. Chris Paul 2015 (2014)
4. Steve Nash 2007 (2005, 2006)

[EmpireFalls]

Harden wildly underrated.

[lessthanjake]

After we get past the Dirk/Kobe/Kawhi/SGA group, it feels to me like it really opens up.

I’d conceptualize the guys after that as being in two major buckets:

1. Guys who were MVP-level players but never won a title (or even made the Finals in their prime). Those include:

James Harden
Steve Nash
Chris Paul

2. Guys who were great players and won titles but weren’t the best player on their title-winning teams. Those include:

Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green

Not all those players are equal (and unlisted players may well go before some of these guys), but those are two major buckets that I see coming next. In terms of those players, I think Chris Paul was probably the most purely impactful in larger samples. But there’s just so many caveats in terms of being injured in the playoffs, missing a lot of time in the regular season, etc. If anything, Ginobili is probably the most impactful of the rest of he players on a per-minute basis, but his minutes were lower, so there’s a question of how to weigh that. Durant and Davis were probably the least impactful of that group, but they also had incredibly impressive peak playoff runs.

Overall, I have no idea who I will choose as the new people on my ballot in the next thread.

I am leaning towards Nash being one of them. That 2005 playoff run from him was genuinely incredible. Probably the best I’ve seen a player play offensively. He bled impact on defense, but what he was doing offensively in 2005 was just outrageous.

I think I’m not really seriously considering voting for Durant, Davis, or Draymond next thread. So, if I assume one of my spots went to Nash, the other options for my next ballot would be Chris Paul, James Harden, and Manu Ginobili. I like Ginobili the most of those, but probably will end up voting for one of the other two.

[iggymcfrack]

After we get past the Dirk/Kobe/Kawhi/SGA group, it feels to me like it really opens up.

I’d conceptualize the guys after that as being in two major buckets:

1. Guys who were MVP-level players but never won a title (or even made the Finals in their prime). Those include:

James Harden
Steve Nash
Chris Paul

2. Guys who were great players and won titles but weren’t the best player on their title-winning teams. Those include:

Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green

Not all those players are equal (and unlisted players may well go before some of these guys), but those are two major buckets that I see coming next. In terms of those players, I think Chris Paul was probably the most purely impactful in larger samples. But there’s just so many caveats in terms of being injured in the playoffs, missing a lot of time in the regular season, etc. If anything, Ginobili is probably the most impactful of the rest of he players on a per-minute basis, but his minutes were lower, so there’s a question of how to weigh that. Durant and Davis were probably the least impactful of that group, but they also had incredibly impressive peak playoff runs.

Overall, I have no idea who I will choose as the new people on my ballot in the next thread.

I am leaning towards Nash being one of them. That 2005 playoff run from him was genuinely incredible. Probably the best I’ve seen a player play offensively. He bled impact on defense, but what he was doing offensively in 2005 was just outrageous.

I think I’m not really seriously considering voting for Durant, Davis, or Draymond next thread. So, if I assume one of my spots went to Nash, the other options for my next ballot would be Chris Paul, James Harden, and Manu Ginobili. I like Ginobili the most of those, but probably will end up voting for one of the other two.

Pretty great breakdown. I’m in a similar spot. I currently have SGA/Kawhi/Dirk/CP3 and I’m pretty sure my next two in some order are Manu and AD. I do feel like AD was practically a co-equal with Bron in 2020 when he had that amazing playoffs and Manu’s the one guy that you listed who I’d say actually was the best player on a championship team, at least for one year. That 2005 championship, Manu and Timmy were pretty much equal during the regular season and then Manu was magical all playoffs long. His TS% was something insane like 16% better than Duncan and Parker. Kobe’s in the group with those 2 dudes too, but he’s obviously getting voted in either this thread or next.