Phee: "We have worst leadership"

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Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Sep 30, 2025 10:19 pm

So, we may combine threads on this, but I thought at least for now it was worth it's own thread. Here's the link:

Lynx's Napheesa Collier blasts WNBA commissioner Cathy Engelbert: 'We have the worst leadership in the world'

I'm going to pull what I consider to be the most eyebrow raising about what she said:

Napheesa Collier wrote:At Unrivaled this past February, I sat across from Cathy and asked how she planned to address the officiating issues in our league. Her response was, 'Well, only the losers complain about the refs.' I also asked how she planned to fix the fact that players like Caitlin, Angel and Paige, who are clearly driving massive revenue for the league, are making so little for their first four years. Her response was, 'Caitlin should be grateful she makes $60 million off the court because without the platform the WNBA gives her, she wouldn't make anything.'

In that same conversation, she told me 'players should be on their knees thanking their lucky stars for the media rights deal that I got them.' That's the mentality driving our league from the top. We go to battle every day to protect a shield that doesn't value us. The league believes it succeeds despite its players, not because of them.


So I'll say:

1. I'm shocked that Phee actually put the Commish on blast like this and I'm really not sure if it was the right move.

2. After Phee's public statement, the question of whether she can fairly represent the other players is now wide open in a way I didn't think it was before. Hopefully she doesn't resist being removed by others in the WNBPA.

3. But, the attitude of Engelbert she's describing is precisely what I feared it was. It seems that the WNBA (and surely NBA) really believe that the fact that they were the dominant organization in America's women professional basketball in the time leading up to it's current popularity should mean the players feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude toward the WNBA's leadership, and my god, that's such a huge error on their part.

They need to be recognizing that there's literally never been a time when WNBA players feel more confident in the popularity of the game and their ability to stand together as a union, and if they can't do that because they are too emotionally attached to what loyalty they think players should have, then they're going to be more likely to have a work stoppage.

4. To be clear, the WNBA players could certainly end up being the unreasonable ones in any negotiation, I'm not speaking to "the players deserve more", but what I am saying is that the W's management should desperately want to avoid a work stoppage at this time where they have all these expansion teams coming, and if they insist on WNBA players taking less because they should be "on their knees thanking" for the past, it's not going to help matters.

5. Of course as noted in other conversations on here: The fact that the WNBA didn't taken advantage of the opening that Russian Aggression gave them, and WNBA players thus used this to launch their own league and get higher salaries, puts the W is an extremely awkward place even before we think about the rapid expansion they're planning. They really needed to not let themselves get in this position in the first place.

And if they don't realize this - if they don't realize the effect Unrivaled is bound to have on the WNBPA - then they are setting themselves up to be an org that shepherded American women's pro basketball through the fallow years only to be usurped at the moment when they think they're about to be safe.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#2 » by cdubbz » Wed Oct 1, 2025 12:30 am

Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#3 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 1, 2025 12:55 am

You guys can support the league's exploitation of the players all you want. That's your right but I completely disagree. Phee told the truth today.

The league needs them. The players don't need the league. The WNBA is literally the low wage offseason league of woman's hoops. She brought up Unrivaled to show how dogsh*t the league is.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#4 » by Mephariel » Wed Oct 1, 2025 2:17 am

cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?


No offense, but if the WNBA wants to avoid this, just pay the players. They need to just shut up and open their wallets.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#5 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Oct 1, 2025 2:23 am

cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?

So I think it’s important to keep in mind that this took place in an exit interview.

Players get interviewed, they get asked questions, and they are supposed to answer honestly.

Now, it might have been wiser for her to play things closer to the vest, but I’m generally not that bothered by players responding with honesty.

To be clear: it’s possible all this was pre-meditated propaganda, and if so, then presumably Phee and her allies do see an advantage.

But it’s also possible right now behind the scenes people are saying to Phee “Uh, we talked about why you shouldn’t talk about this stuff off the cuff. You’ve just made the WNBPA’s job harder. “

And while players publicly are supporting Phee, it’s possible behind the scenes that below-Unrivaled level players are seeing red right now and want to split from Phee.

But, all that aside, I’m inclined to believe Phee is telling the truth about what the Commish said to her, and I quite understand boiling over at the idea of keeping secrets for those belittling you.


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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#6 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Oct 1, 2025 2:27 am

Mephariel wrote:
cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?


No offense, but if the WNBA wants to avoid this, just pay the players. They need to just shut up and open their wallets.

Yeah, the insane thing to think about is How little money it would take to make W players happy compared to what the NBA shells out in the regular.

That doesn’t mean you give W players whatever they want, but with Unrivaled proving the ability to make greater salaries for stars that are still cheap, why would you fight that?

It’s a bit like telling an RFA to go get a contract offer elsewhere, and then when they do, instead of matching, trying to shame them into taking less money with you.


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Re: Phee: 

Post#7 » by BlacJacMac » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:26 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Mephariel wrote:
cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?


No offense, but if the WNBA wants to avoid this, just pay the players. They need to just shut up and open their wallets.

Yeah, the insane thing to think about is How little money it would take to make W players happy compared to what the NBA shells out in the regular.

That doesn’t mean you give W players whatever they want, but with Unrivaled proving the ability to make greater salaries for stars that are still cheap, why would you fight that?

It’s a bit like telling an RFA to go get a contract offer elsewhere, and then when they do, instead of matching, trying to shame them into taking less money with you.


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Exactly.

All the WNBA players combine to make around 15 or 16M.

The MLE alone in the NBA is 14M.

Literally one mid-level player equals the entire WNBA. That’s insane.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#8 » by Parliament10 » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:32 am

Read on Twitter




Read on Twitter




The WNBA CBA Deadline is Oct. 31, 2025.
Negotiations are stalled.

Players want (and deserve) a bigger piece of the pie, that they bring in.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#9 » by Slim Tubby » Wed Oct 1, 2025 10:25 am

MrDollarBills wrote:You guys can support the league's exploitation of the players all you want. That's your right but I completely disagree. Phee told the truth today.

The league needs them. The players don't need the league. The WNBA is literally the low wage offseason league of woman's hoops. She brought up Unrivaled to show how dogsh*t the league is.
With her advertising clout and immense popularity/fandom, Clark could step away from the WNBA to start up her own competing league and put them out of business virtually overnight.

The media dollars and ticket sales will always follow the talent.



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Re: Phee: 

Post#10 » by wco81 » Wed Oct 1, 2025 1:12 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:You guys can support the league's exploitation of the players all you want. That's your right but I completely disagree. Phee told the truth today.

The league needs them. The players don't need the league. The WNBA is literally the low wage offseason league of woman's hoops. She brought up Unrivaled to show how dogsh*t the league is.
With her advertising clout and immense popularity/fandom, Clark could step away from the WNBA to start up her own competing league and put them out of business virtually overnight.

The media dollars and ticket sales will always follow the talent.



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She wouldn’t be able to start a league herself. If some billionaires started another league and signed her away, then they might have a chance like the old ABA and the UFL for a time existed before folding.

WNBA ratings are up the last two seasons but you can’t assume they will keep going up or even stay up. NBA ratings are up and down over its history.

In any event, ahead of contentious CBA negotiations, attack the league leadership? If the WNBA commissioner is like Silver, she’s just a representative of the owners, many of whom, are NBA owners.

While they got new TV deals, it’s unlikely that the owners will get rid of the rookie scale contracts or having max salaries and salary cap which are key features of the NBA CBA.

WNBA playoffs were on ESPN2, while ESPN had on college football games over the weekend. So just how popular is the WNBA? Ratings are up but maybe only high when certain players like Clark are playing?
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#11 » by G R E Y » Wed Oct 1, 2025 1:41 pm

:o

HO

LY

****!

Read on Twitter


Ok. Whatever you may think of this approach, and by Phee's statement, other approaches have been tried, Engelbert is and has a big problem.
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Re: Phee: 

Post#12 » by DOT » Wed Oct 1, 2025 1:45 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Mephariel wrote:
No offense, but if the WNBA wants to avoid this, just pay the players. They need to just shut up and open their wallets.

Yeah, the insane thing to think about is How little money it would take to make W players happy compared to what the NBA shells out in the regular.

That doesn’t mean you give W players whatever they want, but with Unrivaled proving the ability to make greater salaries for stars that are still cheap, why would you fight that?

It’s a bit like telling an RFA to go get a contract offer elsewhere, and then when they do, instead of matching, trying to shame them into taking less money with you.


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Exactly.

All the WNBA players combine to make around 15 or 16M.

The MLE alone in the NBA is 14M.

Literally one mid-level player equals the entire WNBA. That’s insane.

And the league apparently has $250 million just lying around to buy the Sun lol
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Oct 1, 2025 1:49 pm

To be clear, the existence of a Max contract isn’t going to be the thing that biters W players, it’s what the Max deal is.

NBA players can make more than 60 mill per year.
WBA players can’t currently make 300K.

So we’re talking about WNBA superstars making less than 1/200th of NBA superstars.

I don’t actually object to this in principle - whatever the market says, it says - but the W’s salaries right now really aren’t based on the market, which was why Unrivaled was able to step in and outpay the W.

My advise to the W is fundamentally to make sure they are the top paying American women’s League, but of course, pragmatic leaders would not need to be told that they need to do this.


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Re: Phee: 

Post#14 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Oct 1, 2025 2:41 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?

So I think it’s important to keep in mind that this took place in an exit interview.

Players get interviewed, they get asked questions, and they are supposed to answer honestly.

Now, it might have been wiser for her to play things closer to the vest, but I’m generally not that bothered by players responding with honesty.

To be clear: it’s possible all this was pre-meditated propaganda, and if so, then presumably Phee and her allies do see an advantage.

But it’s also possible right now behind the scenes people are saying to Phee “Uh, we talked about why you shouldn’t talk about this stuff off the cuff. You’ve just made the WNBPA’s job harder. “

And while players publicly are supporting Phee, it’s possible behind the scenes that below-Unrivaled level players are seeing red right now and want to split from Phee.

But, all that aside, I’m inclined to believe Phee is telling the truth about what the Commish said to her, and I quite understand boiling over at the idea of keeping secrets for those belittling you.


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It was in an exit interview, but she brought in a prepared statement and asked to read it before any questions. This was premeditated, so I think the only thing to argue is whether this is coming off the emotional reaction to a painful, unexpected series loss (and an injury that was a big part of that loss), or whether Phee was going to do this at some point this offseason, no matter what.

I find the timing is a bit unfortunate. Imagine a similar speech, but after the Lynx has hoisted a championship, one year after getting done pretty by officials in the finals, and in this hypothetical, surviving a brutally physical matchup with the Mercury. Heck even after beating the Mercury and making the speech before the finals. Obviously this opportunity was not available to Phee.

(To be clear, I fully support Phee and the players in all of this, and it seems like her message is being rallied around by the players and fans, which is super important.)

Because of the timing, I wish the main point of emphasis was not about the inconsistent officiating. Her later points and claims- relaying Cathy Engelbert's responses to her questions last offseason- were powerful attacks at Engelbert and the league. The point about young player salaries, and the alleged response... fantastically paint Engelbert as a villain. I think Phee making it about officials, could allow her opponents to try to paint her as having an emotional reaction to a tough loss.

Anyways, this is clearly going to be a contentious negotiation. The players need to go HEAVY at the league and the owners, because this is a serious moment of leverage as the WNBA becomes the first new sports league in over 50 years to create this level of success.

Complete aside(!), but I thought the Lynx's offensive strategy against the Mercury in game 4 was atrocious. Yes, the officials allowed a brutal amount of physicality, and this was probably not to the Lynx's advantage), BUT... the Lynx stopped trying to find mismatches for Phee, and mostly let her attack Alyssa Thomas one-on-one. Alyssa Thomas is bigger, stronger, and probably quicker than Phee. Phee has a length advantage, and can shoot over her a bit, but it's tough sledding to go at AT all night. Anytime Phee got a switch (onto Bonner, Kah, Whitcomb etc.) it was an auto-bucket. There are 2 reasons Phee did not go to the line in game 4:
- the refs allowed AT a ton of body contact. That kind of body contact is harder to call than arm contact.
- Phee primarily draws fouls by being too powerful and/or too quick for her opponents. Phee isn't going to live at the line guarded by AT.
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Re: Phee: 

Post#15 » by Mephariel » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:15 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:You guys can support the league's exploitation of the players all you want. That's your right but I completely disagree. Phee told the truth today.

The league needs them. The players don't need the league. The WNBA is literally the low wage offseason league of woman's hoops. She brought up Unrivaled to show how dogsh*t the league is.
With her advertising clout and immense popularity/fandom, Clark could step away from the WNBA to start up her own competing league and put them out of business virtually overnight.

The media dollars and ticket sales will always follow the talent.



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I think you vastly underestimate how much money it takes to build something like the WNBA. If she starts her own league, she won't have the backing of the NBA, and billionaire owners.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#16 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:48 pm

Mephariel wrote:
cdubbz wrote:Great points Doctor MJ!

After my first viewing of Phee's words I was pretty shocked she went after the commissioner and the leadership. Right after a tough series, after a controversial play call (AT stripping Phee), after Reeves getting suspended, and getting bounced in the playoffs.

Going after Commissioner and leadership before CBA negotations? What is the advantage of doing that?


No offense, but if the WNBA wants to avoid this, just pay the players. They need to just shut up and open their wallets.


More money.

Better amenities.

Protections for players who become pregnant.

It's a lot that they need to do
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Re: Phee: 

Post#17 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:51 pm

DOT wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Yeah, the insane thing to think about is How little money it would take to make W players happy compared to what the NBA shells out in the regular.

That doesn’t mean you give W players whatever they want, but with Unrivaled proving the ability to make greater salaries for stars that are still cheap, why would you fight that?

It’s a bit like telling an RFA to go get a contract offer elsewhere, and then when they do, instead of matching, trying to shame them into taking less money with you.


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Exactly.

All the WNBA players combine to make around 15 or 16M.

The MLE alone in the NBA is 14M.

Literally one mid-level player equals the entire WNBA. That’s insane.

And the league apparently has $250 million just lying around to buy the Sun lol


Yeah that's convenient isn't it? Meanwhile Paige can't afford a 1BR in downtown Dallas off of her base salary.

The players aren't stupid.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#18 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:53 pm

G R E Y wrote::o

HO

LY

****!

Read on Twitter


Ok. Whatever you may think of this approach, and by Phee's statement, other approaches have been tried, Engelbert is and has a big problem.


This is why I don't understand how anyone can side with the league here.

These concerns were brought up behind closed doors and were dismissed. Now the dirty laundry is getting aired out in public.

That's not Phee's fault.
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Re: Phee: 

Post#19 » by DOT » Wed Oct 1, 2025 3:57 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
DOT wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
Exactly.

All the WNBA players combine to make around 15 or 16M.

The MLE alone in the NBA is 14M.

Literally one mid-level player equals the entire WNBA. That’s insane.

And the league apparently has $250 million just lying around to buy the Sun lol


Yeah that's convenient isn't it? Meanwhile Paige can't afford a 1BR in downtown Dallas off of her base salary.

The players aren't stupid.

The moment I read they were offering that to the tribe, I thought "wow, that's f*ckin' rude" considering the two other offers worth $325 million

My second thought was, there's no way this doesn't get brought up in CBA negotiations, they really shot themselves in the foot with this one when they cry about how they can't pay the players.
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Re: Phee: "We have worst leadership" 

Post#20 » by wco81 » Wed Oct 1, 2025 4:37 pm

Someone on First Take cited $40 million in loses. They didn't say for which time period though.

Some teams have folded but now the league is expanding. It seems like the financial picture for the league is in flux.

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