Count legit MVP contending seasons for these players

[f4p]

.

Anywho, only thing that stuck out to me from your counts was that I probably wouldn't have 2021 Curry in there. Though I may be overrating 2021 Jokic based on his recent seasons, idk

Yeah that's already the only person to ever finish top 3 in MVP voting without making the playoffs. Feels like a stretch to say it was really up there with the jokic, who practically was unanimous.

Kareem won MVP in 1976 without making the playoffs. But definitely it's rare to finish top 3 without making the playoffs...

i forgot to clarify, but it was once the media started voting in either 1980 or 1981.

[f4p]

Being RS MVP only makes it trickier, as my tables are for complete seasons.

LeBron James: 11
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 10
Bill Russell: 9
Michael Jordan: 9

Tim Duncan: 6
Hakeem Olajuwon: 9
Wilt Chamberlain: 8
Shaquille O'Neal: 7
Kevin Garnett: 8
Magic Johnson: 8
Stephen Curry: 8

Lebron 11-12 are up there to me, and I have a few more Duncan RS. Hakeem was largely a RS guy in the late 80's, similarly KG for the mid 00's.

Some other big RS guys:

Robinson
Jokic
Harden

I'm curious how you get to 8 for Curry and KG, I only had 2 and 3 seasons respectively.

yeah steph has only been healthy for 7 playoff runs but i'm guessing that's giving him credit for 2016 and 2018 when most star players would have been out of the playoffs with their injuries. but still hard to see 8. 2015-2019, 2014 i'm guessing and 2021? 2022 for the finals even with the obviously subpar regular season?

[RCM88x]

Being RS MVP only makes it trickier, as my tables are for complete seasons.

LeBron James: 11
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 10
Bill Russell: 9
Michael Jordan: 9

Tim Duncan: 6
Hakeem Olajuwon: 9
Wilt Chamberlain: 8
Shaquille O'Neal: 7
Kevin Garnett: 8
Magic Johnson: 8
Stephen Curry: 8

Lebron 11-12 are up there to me, and I have a few more Duncan RS. Hakeem was largely a RS guy in the late 80's, similarly KG for the mid 00's.

Some other big RS guys:

Robinson
Jokic
Harden

I'm curious how you get to 8 for Curry and KG, I only had 2 and 3 seasons respectively.

yeah steph has only been healthy for 7 playoff runs but i'm guessing that's giving him credit for 2016 and 2018 when most star players would have been out of the playoffs with their injuries. but still hard to see 8. 2015-2019, 2014 i'm guessing and 2021? 2022 for the finals even with the obviously subpar regular season?

This thread is for regular season only isn't it?

[Ron Swanson]

I guess I'm way more stingy when it comes to what qualifies here. "MVP season" to me means you can make a legitimate case that they were the MVP even over the winner that year, OR they had an all-time great statistical year and were simply blocked by someone having an equally or slightly more historic season (i.e. SGA over Jokic). Therefore, having 11-seasons for Lebron seems like a pretty big stretch considering we're only talking about RS here. Remember, this isn't how many years you were the "best player in the world", which he very much was from 2009-2018. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Lebron hasn't really authored a top-tier MVP level regular season since his last year in Miami, and the numbers mostly support that. Kareem is the only player I have in the double digits (basically every season from '71 to '81. I'm actually surprised at how neatly it broke down for me:

Kareem: 10-11
Jordan: 9-10
Lebron: 8-9'
Wilt: 7-8
Russell: 6-7

I then have Jokic, Giannis, Robinson, Dirk, Magic, Bird, and Duncan all with 4-5.

[penbeast0]

I guess I'm way more stingy when it comes to what qualifies here. "MVP season" to me means you can make a legitimate case that they were the MVP even over the winner that year, OR they had an all-time great statistical year and were simply blocked by someone having an equally or slightly more historic season (i.e. SGA over Jokic). Therefore, having 11-seasons for Lebron seems like a pretty big stretch considering we're only talking about RS here. Remember, this isn't how many years you were the "best player in the world", which he very much was from 2009-2018. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Lebron hasn't really authored a top-tier MVP level regular season since his last year in Miami, and the numbers mostly support that. Kareem is the only player I have in the double digits (basically every season from '71 to '81. I'm actually surprised at how neatly it broke down for me:

Kareem: 10-11
Jordan: 9-10
Lebron: 8-9'
Wilt: 7-8
Russell: 6-7

I then have Jokic, Giannis, Robinson, Dirk, Magic, Bird, and Duncan all with 4-5.

I don't think there's a season other than 67 after Russell's first and before his last where his regular season performance wasn't the best, at least arguably, in the league. 67 Wilt was just having a ridiculous year and he was always at least arguably the most talented guy to ever play relative to his peers (which you say is one of your exceptions). He just didn't always turn that talent into impact the way Russell did.

What year other than 57, 67, and 69 was Russell NOT arguably the best player in the NBA?

The other issue is that it's easier to be the MVP or in competition for the MVP in a small (8-9 team) league than in a large (25-30) team league. More opportunities for top players to shine equals more competition, even if the actual level of talent didn't increase (and it has increased, particularly as international talent becomes more and more competitive with American grown talent).

[eminence]

Russell's MVP argument in '68 is not particularly strong either.

Reasonable case from '58-'66 for 9 seasons imo.

[RCM88x]

I guess I'm way more stingy when it comes to what qualifies here. "MVP season" to me means you can make a legitimate case that they were the MVP even over the winner that year, OR they had an all-time great statistical year and were simply blocked by someone having an equally or slightly more historic season (i.e. SGA over Jokic). Therefore, having 11-seasons for Lebron seems like a pretty big stretch considering we're only talking about RS here. Remember, this isn't how many years you were the "best player in the world", which he very much was from 2009-2018. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Lebron hasn't really authored a top-tier MVP level regular season since his last year in Miami, and the numbers mostly support that. Kareem is the only player I have in the double digits (basically every season from '71 to '81. I'm actually surprised at how neatly it broke down for me:

Kareem: 10-11
Jordan: 9-10
Lebron: 8-9'
Wilt: 7-8
Russell: 6-7

I then have Jokic, Giannis, Robinson, Dirk, Magic, Bird, and Duncan all with 4-5.

You don't think Lebron has any argument over Westbrook in 2017?

[Ron Swanson]

I guess I'm way more stingy when it comes to what qualifies here. "MVP season" to me means you can make a legitimate case that they were the MVP even over the winner that year, OR they had an all-time great statistical year and were simply blocked by someone having an equally or slightly more historic season (i.e. SGA over Jokic). Therefore, having 11-seasons for Lebron seems like a pretty big stretch considering we're only talking about RS here. Remember, this isn't how many years you were the "best player in the world", which he very much was from 2009-2018. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Lebron hasn't really authored a top-tier MVP level regular season since his last year in Miami, and the numbers mostly support that. Kareem is the only player I have in the double digits (basically every season from '71 to '81. I'm actually surprised at how neatly it broke down for me:

Kareem: 10-11
Jordan: 9-10
Lebron: 8-9'
Wilt: 7-8
Russell: 6-7

I then have Jokic, Giannis, Robinson, Dirk, Magic, Bird, and Duncan all with 4-5.

You don't think Lebron has any argument over Westbrook in 2017?

Ironically I think you can argue him over Westbrook more easily than you can argue him over Kawhi or Harden.

[RCM88x]

I guess I'm way more stingy when it comes to what qualifies here. "MVP season" to me means you can make a legitimate case that they were the MVP even over the winner that year, OR they had an all-time great statistical year and were simply blocked by someone having an equally or slightly more historic season (i.e. SGA over Jokic). Therefore, having 11-seasons for Lebron seems like a pretty big stretch considering we're only talking about RS here. Remember, this isn't how many years you were the "best player in the world", which he very much was from 2009-2018. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Lebron hasn't really authored a top-tier MVP level regular season since his last year in Miami, and the numbers mostly support that. Kareem is the only player I have in the double digits (basically every season from '71 to '81. I'm actually surprised at how neatly it broke down for me:

Kareem: 10-11
Jordan: 9-10
Lebron: 8-9'
Wilt: 7-8
Russell: 6-7

I then have Jokic, Giannis, Robinson, Dirk, Magic, Bird, and Duncan all with 4-5.

You don't think Lebron has any argument over Westbrook in 2017?

Ironically I think you can argue him over Westbrook more easily than you can argue him over Kawhi or Harden.

How so? Simply team record/success related?

[Ron Swanson]

You don't think Lebron has any argument over Westbrook in 2017?

Ironically I think you can argue him over Westbrook more easily than you can argue him over Kawhi or Harden.

How so? Simply team record/success related?

Kawhi: 2nd in EPM, 3rd in PER, 3rd in WS/48, 3rd in VORP, 179.5 TS-added

Lebron: 4th in EPM (1st in ESPN's RPM), 6th in PER, 11th in WS/48. 4th in VORP, 211.5 TS-Added

Eh, outside of Hollinger's old formula RPM which really hated Kawhi that year for some reason (23rd overall with a negative DRPM score is a bit suspect), I'm not seeing his case. That really should have been the Kawhi MVP year in hindsight.

[Dupp]

Dunno why you’ve left 08,11 and 18 off lebron.

Regardless, I think those guys are the clear best 4 ever so no surprise.

Bird probably stacks up pretty well despite a shortish career.

[RCM88x]

Ironically I think you can argue him over Westbrook more easily than you can argue him over Kawhi or Harden.

How so? Simply team record/success related?

Kawhi: 2nd in EPM, 3rd in PER, 3rd in WS/48, 3rd in VORP, 179.5 TS-added

Lebron: 4th in EPM (1st in ESPN's RPM), 6th in PER, 11th in WS/48. 4th in VORP, 211.5 TS-Added

Eh, outside of Hollinger's old formula RPM which really hated Kawhi that year for some reason (23rd overall with a negative DRPM score is a bit suspect), I'm not seeing his case. That really should have been the Kawhi MVP year in hindsight.

Kawhi had a +8.4 defensive on/off that year, one of the worst in the league among guys playing significant minutes. Maybe strange but he had a similarly underwhelming +2.4 defensive on/off with the Raptors in 2019. I think that played a part in it.

I think Kawhi looks a little more favorable statistically in hindsight because we aren't approaching everything through the lens of a 67 wins Spurs team from the year before. But even so I don't think he some kind of snub or anything.

But those numbers you posted kind of make both guys appear equal if anything.

[jalengreen]

Yeah that's already the only person to ever finish top 3 in MVP voting without making the playoffs. Feels like a stretch to say it was really up there with the jokic, who practically was unanimous.

Kareem won MVP in 1976 without making the playoffs. But definitely it's rare to finish top 3 without making the playoffs...

i forgot to clarify, but it was once the media started voting in either 1980 or 1981.

Tbf the play-in era makes this a little stranger because Steph hadn't yet missed the playoffs when they voted for him. But yeah I didn't think he deserved any first place votes