Shaq's defense vs. Jokic's offense

[Peregrine01]

Jokic is a lot more active than Shaq was on defense, particularly Lakers Shaq who was 350 lbs. And he's far superior anticipating actions and schemes. Jokic is way better playing defense outside the paint and Shaq was way better defending the paint.

[kcktiny]

But you only made two points about Shaq's defense.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before posting.

I don't know how to check opponent 2pt FG% during the time Shaq was on the floor.

Why do you have to? His first 3 years in the league he was on the floor for 77% of the Magic's minutes, Orlando allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% in the league (47.2%).

His 8 years with the Lakers he was on the floor 64% of their minutes played. They allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% (45.4%).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when Shaq was on the floor opposing starters, and in particular starting Cs, were likely on the floor most of that time, and were not on the floor when Shaq wasn't, likely most of that time.

But is this enough to consider his defensive impact all-time great?

Jesus what are you missing?

His teams have allowed low 2pt FG%s over long stretches of time where he played the most minutes on those teams.

Since he's been in the league he's 3rd in blocked shots (2732), 6th in defensive rebounds (8890).

He was all-defensive 2nd team three times.

His time with Orlando and the Lakers he played 38 min/g. That's the most min/g played by a C in the league over that time (12 years).

He was on the floor for 4/5 of every game he played in.

If it were, I would think more people would opine on Shaq being one of the great defenders of his era. But you never hear that.

You? Just who exactly is "you"?

Perhaps "you" are deaf? Perhaps "you" are listening to people who don't know NBA basketball?

Try talking to someone who watched Shaq his first 12 years in the league. Try talking to the NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team 3 times.

Why don't you go on YouTube and listen to how other NBA players talk about a prime Shaq's defense? Enlighten yourself.

Or go to YouTube and watch some of a young Shaq's Orlando games or Lakers games. There are plenty. Watch a young Shaq play defense.

My eyes also did not see that.

Perhaps you need spectacles? (if you are young that means glasses)

They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA) and who had trouble guarding the pick-n-roll and 3pters.

Well clearly NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team three times saw something you did not. Surprise.

Maybe instead of just trusting their eyes they also looked at his team's defensive 2pt FG% allowed. Perhaps you should too.

I don't see how this puts him in the echelon of defender that makes his defense more impactful than Jokic's offense.

Look dude no one is telling you your opinion is wrong. Believe what you want to believe.

I watched him over his entire career. In my opinion a prime young Shaq was a beast on defense. Not as great as Olajuwon, or DRob, or Mutombo, but just a tier below.

And I would take that prime Shaq defense over Jokic's offense. Easily. Jokic has been a worse per minute offensive rebounder than just the league average C during his career, and has averaged all of 355 FTAs a season. No thanks.

The point about minutes is solid, but that is a product of how rosters are managed in the modern era. I understand getting 6 extra minutes is important, but I really doubt Shaq - whose conditioning was often a question mark - would be playing the minutes he played in the 90s if he played today. Further, I doubt Shaq would average more minutes per game than Jokic if they played in the same era.

Nobody cares about your conjecture. Try sticking to what is factual.

My eyes also did not see that. They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA)

Stamina issues? Are you completely clueless?

Shaq his first 12 years in the league played more total minutes (30493) and more minutes per game (38 min/g) than any other C in the league. He also played 40 min/g in 158 playoff games during that time.

And his 8 years as a Laker he played 38 min/g. Jokic his last 8 years played 34 min/g.

Aahh - but it's Shaq that has the stamina issues. Typical Jokic fanboy crap.

So, if Shaq was playing 32 minutes per game with great 2pt% interior defense, but with the same stamina issues

If - if - if.

Again, more typical Jokic fanboy crap. A key Jokic weakness - stamina - just 32 min/g in the regular season over an entire decade, you try to claim is the weakness of the other player you are comparing Jokic to.

Shaq 38 min/g compared to Jokic 32 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

In the playoffs Shaq 40 min/g to Jokic 38 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

Give it a rest will ya'. Jesus. Jokic fanboys clearly have difficulty with the concept of objectivity.

you see this player's defense as more impactful than Jokic's offense?

And you clearly have difficulty with reading comprehension. Yes. How many times do I have to say it?

I still, really really don't see it.

1-800-get-glasses.

So yeah, I need more.

Nobody cares what more you need. You asked:

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense?.., you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O? You sure about that?

You clearly did not get the answer you expected, and are trying every excuse you can for Jokic to convince yourself that your opinion is correct.

Shaq doesn't have the stamina. Shaq wouldn't play the minutes now he did then. Shaq didn't do this. Shaq didn't do that.

You simply refuse to look at what Shaq actually did do.

The player I am describing above would struggle to make it in the L if his only asset was his defense.

So says you. You want to believe that, go for it. If it makes you sleep better at night, good for you.

(And again, that is what I am trying to single out here: you said Shaq's defense ALONE is better than Jokic's offense alone).

Did you really write this - again??

Yes I would take Shaq's defense ALONE versus Jokic's offense ALONE.

Do the capital letters make this more understandable for you now compared to how I wrote it before?

[SonicMcMahon]

But you only made two points about Shaq's defense.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before posting.

I don't know how to check opponent 2pt FG% during the time Shaq was on the floor.

Why do you have to? His first 3 years in the league he was on the floor for 77% of the Magic's minutes, Orlando allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% in the league (47.2%).

His 8 years with the Lakers he was on the floor 64% of their minutes played. They allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% (45.4%).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when Shaq was on the floor opposing starters, and in particular starting Cs, were likely on the floor most of that time, and were not on the floor when Shaq wasn't, likely most of that time.

But is this enough to consider his defensive impact all-time great?

Jesus what are you missing?

His teams have allowed low 2pt FG%s over long stretches of time where he played the most minutes on those teams.

Since he's been in the league he's 3rd in blocked shots (2732), 6th in defensive rebounds (8890).

He was all-defensive 2nd team three times.

His time with Orlando and the Lakers he played 38 min/g. That's the most min/g played by a C in the league over that time (12 years).

He was on the floor for 4/5 of every game he played in.

If it were, I would think more people would opine on Shaq being one of the great defenders of his era. But you never hear that.

You? Just who exactly is "you"?

Perhaps "you" are deaf? Perhaps "you" are listening to people who don't know NBA basketball?

Try talking to someone who watched Shaq his first 12 years in the league. Try talking to the NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team 3 times.

Why don't you go on YouTube and listen to how other NBA players talk about a prime Shaq's defense? Enlighten yourself.

Or go to YouTube and watch some of a young Shaq's Orlando games or Lakers games. There are plenty. Watch a young Shaq play defense.

My eyes also did not see that.

Perhaps you need spectacles? (if you are young that means glasses)

They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA) and who had trouble guarding the pick-n-roll and 3pters.

Well clearly NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team three times saw something you did not. Surprise.

Maybe instead of just trusting their eyes they also looked at his team's defensive 2pt FG% allowed. Perhaps you should too.

I don't see how this puts him in the echelon of defender that makes his defense more impactful than Jokic's offense.

Look dude no one is telling you your opinion is wrong. Believe what you want to believe.

I watched him over his entire career. In my opinion a prime young Shaq was a beast on defense. Not as great as Olajuwon, or DRob, or Mutombo, but just a tier below.

And I would take that prime Shaq defense over Jokic's offense. Easily. Jokic has been a worse per minute offensive rebounder than just the league average C during his career, and has averaged all of 355 FTAs a season. No thanks.

The point about minutes is solid, but that is a product of how rosters are managed in the modern era. I understand getting 6 extra minutes is important, but I really doubt Shaq - whose conditioning was often a question mark - would be playing the minutes he played in the 90s if he played today. Further, I doubt Shaq would average more minutes per game than Jokic if they played in the same era.

Nobody cares about your conjecture. Try sticking to what is factual.

My eyes also did not see that. They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA)

Stamina issues? Are you completely clueless?

Shaq his first 12 years in the league played more total minutes (30493) and more minutes per game (38 min/g) than any other C in the league. He also played 40 min/g in 158 playoff games during that time.

And his 8 years as a Laker he played 38 min/g. Jokic his last 8 years played 34 min/g.

Aahh - but it's Shaq that has the stamina issues. Typical Jokic fanboy crap.

So, if Shaq was playing 32 minutes per game with great 2pt% interior defense, but with the same stamina issues

If - if - if.

Again, more typical Jokic fanboy crap. A key Jokic weakness - stamina - just 32 min/g in the regular season over an entire decade, you try to claim is the weakness of the other player you are comparing Jokic to.

Shaq 38 min/g compared to Jokic 32 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

In the playoffs Shaq 40 min/g to Jokic 38 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

Give it a rest will ya'. Jesus. Jokic fanboys clearly have difficulty with the concept of objectivity.

you see this player's defense as more impactful than Jokic's offense?

And you clearly have difficulty with reading comprehension. Yes. How many times do I have to say it?

I still, really really don't see it.

1-800-get-glasses.

So yeah, I need more.

Nobody cares what more you need. You asked:

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense?.., you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O? You sure about that?

You clearly did not get the answer you expected, and are trying every excuse you can for Jokic to convince yourself that your opinion is correct.

Shaq doesn't have the stamina. Shaq wouldn't play the minutes now he did then. Shaq didn't do this. Shaq didn't do that.

You simply refuse to look at what Shaq actually did do.

The player I am describing above would struggle to make it in the L if his only asset was his defense.

So says you. You want to believe that, go for it. If it makes you sleep better at night, good for you.

(And again, that is what I am trying to single out here: you said Shaq's defense ALONE is better than Jokic's offense alone).

Did you really write this - again??

Yes I would take Shaq's defense ALONE versus Jokic's offense ALONE.

Do the capital letters make this more understandable for you now compared to how I wrote it before?

Got it.

So I am assuming you would rather have a prime Dikembe Mutombo than a prime Nikola Jokic, do I have that correct?

[SonicMcMahon]

You also said this:

"He (Shaq) was all-defensive 2nd team three times."

How is 3 times defensive 2nd team the mark of an all-time great defender? Yes, there was some good competition in the 90s at the C spot. But all-D second only 3 times is the mark of a good defender, by this metric, not a great one.

I wonder, has Nikola Jokic qualified a whole 3 times in his career for an All-NBA second team? I guess that would be the mark he'd have to beat to be "as good on offense as Shaq was on defense."

[kcktiny]

So I am assuming you would rather have a prime Dikembe Mutombo than a prime Nikola Jokic, do I have that correct?

I would take prime Mutombo's defense over Prime Jokic's offense in a heartbeat.

Prime Mutombo - how about 1993-94 to 1997-98. He blocked an average of 306 shots a season, while being a very good defensive rebounder.

May not mean much to you if you are young (which I am assuming you are because it's clear you did not see Shaq play in his prime), but an NBA player has not blocked as many as 300 shots in a season in over two decades (Theo Ratliff with 307 in 2003-04).

Which would mean you have not personally watched a player average 4 blocks a game and alter another 4-8 shots such that they do not go in per game.

Such is the impact of a great defender/shot blocker.

Perhaps if you understood this, but it's clear you do not, based on your question.

Look - we get it - it is simply incredulous to you that anyone would say another player is better than your obsession.

But it's like when your girlfriend leaves you and you see her dating someone else. All of a sudden you say to yourself she just wasn't that good.

You'll get over this. It just might take some time.

[Rubios]

The thread topic is an interesting debate, though a bit weird, because Shaq was (mainly) a behemoth against the opposing rim and also stood out much more for his offense than his defense.

But even if it’s a hyperbole to make a point or stand your ground, nobody would ever, ever trade Jokic for Mutombo. Don’t die on that hill.

[kcktiny]

nobody would ever, ever trade Jokic for Mutombo

Actually read the post - defense over offense.

And for your young information - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, arguably the greatest player in league history, and in his prime at the time, was traded for Elmore Smith (and a few others).

Never say never.

Or ever, ever.

[MrGoat]

Depends which version of Shaq we're talking about. 2000 Shaq and before was a different beast than 2001 and after Shaq when he started gaining weight and showing a different kind of hunger after getting his first title. He was 325 in 2000, by 2002 he was up to 415 by his own admission. Early Shaq could actually move on defense. There's a reason he's considered one of the most frustrating players of all time

[Wallace_Wallace]

Today’s game has about 6-8 more possessions a game than the 2000’s. With the amount of movement the game requires, Shaq will break down sooner than we realize. He will still be efficient on offense, but on defense he’ll be hunted on the perimeter. He was already fouling at an alarming rate (3.6 foul/36 minutes), I’m afraid he’ll constantly be in foul trouble in today’s game.

[kcktiny]

Today’s game has about 6-8 more possessions a game than the 2000’s.

Shaq did not play today. He played in the 90s and 2000s.

With the amount of movement the game requires, Shaq will break down sooner than we realize.

Conjecture having absolutely no basis in fact.

He was already fouling at an alarming rate (3.6 foul/36 minutes)

Oooo - an alarming rate you say.

Yep there's nothing like more Jokic fanboy misinformation to make your boy sound better than he really is by negatively misrepresenting what other Cs did.

3.6 foul/36 minutes is the same as 4.8 PF/48min. Jokic's first 10 years in the league he committed 4.0 PF/48min. Shaq's first 10 years in the league he committed 4.3 PF/48min.

And - considering Shaq had 1777 blocks over that decade and Jokic a measly 536 (that's less than just 54 blocks/season), that's more than 3 times as many blocks as Jokic. I'll take the extra 0.3 PF/48min to get more than 3 times as many blocks.

Plus Shaq's first decade in the league he committed fouls annually at rates of 3.9 to 5.0 PF/48min. Just the league average C those 10 years committed fouls at rates of 5.7 to 6.2 PF/48min. Every single one of those 10 seasons Shaq committed fouls at per minute rates less than what just the league average C was committing.

Oh my - how alarming.

As a matter of fact, Shaq did not commits fouls at a per minute rate higher/worse than what just the average C in the league was committing until 2007-08, his 16th season in the league when he was age 35.

I’m afraid he’ll constantly be in foul trouble in today’s game

Nice try. But you really should do your homework next time.

2000 Shaq and before was a different beast than 2001 and after

From 1996-97 to 1999-00 the Lakers as a team on defense held their opponent's to the league's 5th lowest 2pt FG% allowed at just 46.3%, with Shaq playing 38 min/g.

From 2000-01 to 2001-02, the Lakers as a team on defense held their opponent's to the league's 6th lowest 2pt FG% allowed at just 46.1%, with Shaq playing 38 min/g.

[Mephariel]

nobody would ever, ever trade Jokic for Mutombo

Actually read the post - defense over offense.

And for your young information - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, arguably the greatest player in league history, and in his prime at the time, was traded for Elmore Smith (and a few others).

Never say never.

Or ever, ever.

Nah that is crazy. I think Jokic over Mutombo any day. Jokic won a championship as a 1A option, something Mutombo would have never done.

[dhsilv2]

But you only made two points about Shaq's defense.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before posting.

I don't know how to check opponent 2pt FG% during the time Shaq was on the floor.

Why do you have to? His first 3 years in the league he was on the floor for 77% of the Magic's minutes, Orlando allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% in the league (47.2%).

His 8 years with the Lakers he was on the floor 64% of their minutes played. They allowed the 5th lowest 2pt FG% (45.4%).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when Shaq was on the floor opposing starters, and in particular starting Cs, were likely on the floor most of that time, and were not on the floor when Shaq wasn't, likely most of that time.

But is this enough to consider his defensive impact all-time great?

Jesus what are you missing?

His teams have allowed low 2pt FG%s over long stretches of time where he played the most minutes on those teams.

Since he's been in the league he's 3rd in blocked shots (2732), 6th in defensive rebounds (8890).

He was all-defensive 2nd team three times.

His time with Orlando and the Lakers he played 38 min/g. That's the most min/g played by a C in the league over that time (12 years).

He was on the floor for 4/5 of every game he played in.

If it were, I would think more people would opine on Shaq being one of the great defenders of his era. But you never hear that.

You? Just who exactly is "you"?

Perhaps "you" are deaf? Perhaps "you" are listening to people who don't know NBA basketball?

Try talking to someone who watched Shaq his first 12 years in the league. Try talking to the NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team 3 times.

Why don't you go on YouTube and listen to how other NBA players talk about a prime Shaq's defense? Enlighten yourself.

Or go to YouTube and watch some of a young Shaq's Orlando games or Lakers games. There are plenty. Watch a young Shaq play defense.

My eyes also did not see that.

Perhaps you need spectacles? (if you are young that means glasses)

They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA) and who had trouble guarding the pick-n-roll and 3pters.

Well clearly NBA head coaches that voted him all-defensive 2nd team three times saw something you did not. Surprise.

Maybe instead of just trusting their eyes they also looked at his team's defensive 2pt FG% allowed. Perhaps you should too.

I don't see how this puts him in the echelon of defender that makes his defense more impactful than Jokic's offense.

Look dude no one is telling you your opinion is wrong. Believe what you want to believe.

I watched him over his entire career. In my opinion a prime young Shaq was a beast on defense. Not as great as Olajuwon, or DRob, or Mutombo, but just a tier below.

And I would take that prime Shaq defense over Jokic's offense. Easily. Jokic has been a worse per minute offensive rebounder than just the league average C during his career, and has averaged all of 355 FTAs a season. No thanks.

The point about minutes is solid, but that is a product of how rosters are managed in the modern era. I understand getting 6 extra minutes is important, but I really doubt Shaq - whose conditioning was often a question mark - would be playing the minutes he played in the 90s if he played today. Further, I doubt Shaq would average more minutes per game than Jokic if they played in the same era.

Nobody cares about your conjecture. Try sticking to what is factual.

My eyes also did not see that. They saw a player who was an asset defensively on the interior, but who had stamina issues (in LA)

Stamina issues? Are you completely clueless?

Shaq his first 12 years in the league played more total minutes (30493) and more minutes per game (38 min/g) than any other C in the league. He also played 40 min/g in 158 playoff games during that time.

And his 8 years as a Laker he played 38 min/g. Jokic his last 8 years played 34 min/g.

Aahh - but it's Shaq that has the stamina issues. Typical Jokic fanboy crap.

So, if Shaq was playing 32 minutes per game with great 2pt% interior defense, but with the same stamina issues

If - if - if.

Again, more typical Jokic fanboy crap. A key Jokic weakness - stamina - just 32 min/g in the regular season over an entire decade, you try to claim is the weakness of the other player you are comparing Jokic to.

Shaq 38 min/g compared to Jokic 32 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

In the playoffs Shaq 40 min/g to Jokic 38 min/g - oh but it's Shaq with the stamina issue.

Give it a rest will ya'. Jesus. Jokic fanboys clearly have difficulty with the concept of objectivity.

you see this player's defense as more impactful than Jokic's offense?

And you clearly have difficulty with reading comprehension. Yes. How many times do I have to say it?

I still, really really don't see it.

1-800-get-glasses.

So yeah, I need more.

Nobody cares what more you need. You asked:

You would take Shaq’s defence over Jokic’s offense?.., you’d choose the guy with Shaq’s D over the guys with Jokic’s O? You sure about that?

You clearly did not get the answer you expected, and are trying every excuse you can for Jokic to convince yourself that your opinion is correct.

Shaq doesn't have the stamina. Shaq wouldn't play the minutes now he did then. Shaq didn't do this. Shaq didn't do that.

You simply refuse to look at what Shaq actually did do.

The player I am describing above would struggle to make it in the L if his only asset was his defense.

So says you. You want to believe that, go for it. If it makes you sleep better at night, good for you.

(And again, that is what I am trying to single out here: you said Shaq's defense ALONE is better than Jokic's offense alone).

Did you really write this - again??

Yes I would take Shaq's defense ALONE versus Jokic's offense ALONE.

Do the capital letters make this more understandable for you now compared to how I wrote it before?

Wow, not only bad takes. But you're openly insulting a man behind his back by not quoting his name. This might be the most disrespectful post I've seen on this forum.

[SonicMcMahon]

So I am assuming you would rather have a prime Dikembe Mutombo than a prime Nikola Jokic, do I have that correct?

I would take prime Mutombo's defense over Prime Jokic's offense in a heartbeat.

Prime Mutombo - how about 1993-94 to 1997-98. He blocked an average of 306 shots a season, while being a very good defensive rebounder.

May not mean much to you if you are young (which I am assuming you are because it's clear you did not see Shaq play in his prime), but an NBA player has not blocked as many as 300 shots in a season in over two decades (Theo Ratliff with 307 in 2003-04).

Which would mean you have not personally watched a player average 4 blocks a game and alter another 4-8 shots such that they do not go in per game.

Such is the impact of a great defender/shot blocker.

Perhaps if you understood this, but it's clear you do not, based on your question.

Look - we get it - it is simply incredulous to you that anyone would say another player is better than your obsession.

But it's like when your girlfriend leaves you and you see her dating someone else. All of a sudden you say to yourself she just wasn't that good.

You'll get over this. It just might take some time.

I am 41 years old and have watched basketball religiously since '95. I saw Deke and Shaq play. Shaq is ridiculous. One of the best peaks I've seen, maybe the very best.

But I changed my point to Mutombo, because you mentioned he is a tier above Shaq defensively. If you would take Shaq's D over Jokic's O, you would certainly take Deke's D over Jokic's O. And since Deke has marginal value on offense and Jokic has marginal value on defense, it stands to reason that you would simply choose Dikembe Mutombo over Nikola Jokic as total players.

Can you confirm that you would do this if given the choice as a GM?

[SonicMcMahon]

Wow, not only bad takes. But you're openly insulting a man behind his back by not quoting his name. This might be the most disrespectful post I've seen on this forum.

Thanks for the support I don't get too down about message board posts fortunately. I'm sure Kctiny and I could have a reasonable discussion if I were to meet him in person. In this format, it's pretty easy to scream and bleat. I've even caught myself doing it.

[dhsilv2]

Wow, not only bad takes. But you're openly insulting a man behind his back by not quoting his name. This might be the most disrespectful post I've seen on this forum.

Thanks for the support I don't get too down about message board posts fortunately. I'm sure Kctiny and I could have a reasonable discussion if I were to meet him in person. In this format, it's pretty easy to scream and bleat. I've even caught myself doing it.

He does it to everyone and says he's "just here to talk basketball". But here he's just flat out insulting you without quoting you. Just absurd that he keeps doing this. Be one thing to take a quote and talk about it as the start of a thought. "Jordan was elite off ball". That'd be fine to steal as a non user quote and talk ball on.

But saying you need glasses...but not quoting you? Just childish.

So yeah, I"m defending you but also just calling out his consistent bad behavior as a poster.

[kcktiny]

I am 41 years old and have watched basketball religiously since '95.

Hallelujah.

Shaq is ridiculous. One of the best peaks I've seen, maybe the very best.

Prime Shaq agreed.

Mutombo, because you mentioned he is a tier above Shaq defensively.

Correct.

If you would take Shaq's D over Jokic's O

Correct.

you would certainly take Deke's D over Jokic's O

Correct. I have already stated this.

And since Deke has marginal value on offense

Define marginal.

Jokic has been in the league 10 years. Mutumbo's first 10 years in the league:

- he lead all players in offensive rebounds (2861)
- despite scoring significantly less than Jokic got to the FT line more

it stands to reason that you would simply choose Dikembe Mutombo over Nikola Jokic as total players

Why do you feel the need to put words into the mouths of others to try to justify your opinion?

[Larry_Russell]

Shaq tended to wear people down.

Much like Randy Couture in the UFC. Just leaning on guys against the cage wore them out.

Yeah, he was slower and yeah Jokic can shoot 3 pointers...I still think Shaq breaks Jokic on the block and just wears him out.

[bbms]

that's an odd proposal, of course jokic's offense is better than shaq's defense.

[picc]

that's an odd proposal, of course jokic's offense is better than shaq's defense.

Yeah, what I meant was Shaq's defensive advantage vs. Jokic's (purported) offensive advantage, but for some reason didn't put that in the title.

[SonicMcMahon]

Why do you feel the need to put words into the mouths of others to try to justify your opinion?

I guess that's a fair point. I am a Jokic fanboy, but a greater fan of basketball and good discussion. If I was being smug, I apologize. This is a discussion forum. Ultimately, I am just trying to get to the crux of our disagreement by dissecting an argument you are making.

You either believe:

a) Dikembe Mutombo is a better player in total than Nikola Jokic

OR

b) Shaq's defense is NOT worth more than Jokic's offense.

You cannot logically defend both a) and b) at the same time**. If you do not care to answer, I will move on.




(**Because you said: Mutombo D > Shaq D > Jokic O, which given Jokic is defensively mediocre, leads to: Mutombo > Jokic)