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Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET

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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#101 » by dougthonus » Thu Oct 2, 2025 6:05 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


Generally speaking, there is a somewhat natural pace though. Teams do not just sprint up and down the court, the game mostly involves half court possessions, and elite players are going to beat non elite players in the half court. When you have less talent, you like to make the game not about half court execution, and you try to do some tactic to change the tenor of the game.

One such tactic is to try and run people out of the gym and make the game faster and sloppier. Another such tactic might be to make the game overly bruising and physical and beat up other teams, but generally speaking, you try to change the game from half court basketball execution which is the traditional primary aspect of the game on both sides to something else where you have a relative advantage.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#102 » by sco » Thu Oct 2, 2025 6:49 pm

dougthonus wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


Generally speaking, there is a somewhat natural pace though. Teams do not just sprint up and down the court, the game mostly involves half court possessions, and elite players are going to beat non elite players in the half court. When you have less talent, you like to make the game not about half court execution, and you try to do some tactic to change the tenor of the game.

One such tactic is to try and run people out of the gym and make the game faster and sloppier. Another such tactic might be to make the game overly bruising and physical and beat up other teams, but generally speaking, you try to change the game from half court basketball execution which is the traditional primary aspect of the game on both sides to something else where you have a relative advantage.

IMO the strategy has merit here. IMO, many teams in the league rely on older stars. If you are younger and deeper, the idea is that by the end of the game you tire out the other teams and are able to be more effective than your opponent. And, IIRC, we did have some success at that toward the end of the season.

On the flipside, teams with stars (guys who can score efficiently when double-covered) are able to have better success running plays in the half-court where they can run plays to manipulate coverages/mismatches. We don't have a guy who fits that mold. So play fast as plan B.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#103 » by dougthonus » Thu Oct 2, 2025 6:51 pm

sco wrote:IMO the strategy has merit here. IMO, many teams in the league rely on older stars. If you are younger and deeper, the idea is that by the end of the game you tire out the other teams and are able to be more effective than your opponent. And, IIRC, we did have some success at that toward the end of the season.

On the flipside, teams with stars (guys who can score efficiently when double-covered) are able to have better success running plays in the half-court where they can run plays to manipulate coverages/mismatches. We don't have a guy who fits that mold. So play fast as plan B.


Yeah, to be clear, I think for us it is a good strategy. We ARE undertalented. We DO need to find a way to try and compensate for that, and with a high rebounding, elite passing, fast paced, lead guard and an incredibly deep roster of primarily young players, that strategy fits our personnel.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#104 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Oct 2, 2025 7:32 pm

dougthonus wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


Generally speaking, there is a somewhat natural pace though. Teams do not just sprint up and down the court, the game mostly involves half court possessions, and elite players are going to beat non elite players in the half court. When you have less talent, you like to make the game not about half court execution, and you try to do some tactic to change the tenor of the game.

One such tactic is to try and run people out of the gym and make the game faster and sloppier. Another such tactic might be to make the game overly bruising and physical and beat up other teams, but generally speaking, you try to change the game from half court basketball execution which is the traditional primary aspect of the game on both sides to something else where you have a relative advantage.


Yeah, I just disagree with this. If you are more physical, you play more physically. You are not deviating from some natural non-physical state. You're just playing to your advantage.

If you're playing fast to make the game "sloppy," sure, that's a gimmick, I guess. But if you're the Indiana Pacers and you're playing fast because you're better at other teams at doing it, that's not a gimmick at all. Certainly playing with pace didn't cause Indiana to play sloppily. Halliburton is pushing pace while never turning the ball over.

Thibs likes to play his starters huge minutes. Indiana likes to go super deep. Neither of these approaches is more inherently natural than the other, but Indiana's use of pace takes advantage of Thibs's predilections in a way that caused what you viewed to be the worse team to prevail. In retrospect, though, that seems to perhaps be a misapprehension of who is "better" because you're going through this filter of "historically, this is what basketball has looked like." Maybe it can look like something else.

Using a closer in baseball (and a million other developments in the modern game) would have seemed like a gimmick at one point. Turns out it's just a better and smarter way to play.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#105 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:21 pm

Indomitable wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
It will work if they buy in. He could be not get his guys to push the pace 2 seasons ago.

They got rid of Demar and they started to play with pace.

Players especially veterans are going to play their game.

If Giddey,Coby, Ayo , and Matias but in. It will work. Most people are followers.

If they stay healthy they will win between 40 to 45 games in my opinion.

If you are arguing this team is without championship aspirations. No crap..

Still they buy in is the important part. Vuc is a follower. Once Zach and Demar left. He actually started to rotate at the rim.

I love Zach game but he was miscast as a Jordan/Kobe type. He should have been a more athletic Ray Allen. I hope he does get to do what Ray did in his 30s.

When Lonzo was here pre leg issue. We were playing incredible defense. We packed size and that led to Caruso and Lonzo getting hurt.

If Essengue and Mastas can live to their potential. This could be interesting in two years.


The 2 worst teams in the league were both in the top 5 in pace last season. The only team in that group over .500 was Memphis with 48 wins. Why people think playing faster than everyone else leads to success in the NBA is a mystery to me. It's what bad teams have to do.

The Bulls were 2nd in pace last season. How much faster are they supposed to play?

It was a start.
*The Bulls went from a team that did what they wanted and was mediocre.
* Too a team that did listen and was mediocre.

Admittedly on the surface this seems to be pointless. From my point of view it means they are coachable and can be modelled. MJ is not walking through that door. Therefore, internal development is required.

This season is about Matias, Noa, Giddey, Coby, and Ayo possibly. The rest of these pieces are just interchangeable role players. They are not firing anyone and therefore it is important to get a team on the same page.

This is about a culture shift and not just about a record. They actually did follow the coaching. Most successful teams start out with an improved culture or are gifted a star that change their destiny.

No one is telling you that this will be fun, but this is the season of trying to instill culture. They will spend their money this off season if they believe they have found their path.


Who on the Bulls was doing "what they want"? Now if you said the Bulls went from "doing what Vuc wants" I could probably agree. What coach did that? Oh yeah... Billy.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#106 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:35 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
madvillian wrote:I know what you're saying but last year we saw the Pacers in the playoffs speed it up because they could play more efficiently at that pace than their opponents. Funnily enough they were 3rd in playoff pace behind Memphis (small sample there) and the Thunder but the Thunder were a net +8 per 100 possessions and Indy was "only" +2.

Some interesting stats here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2025.html

Pace is inherently neutral as a strategy imo. If you have the personnel to play fast and efficiently do it, but not many teams do. It takes a Haliburton, SGA type lead guard to do it usually.


I agree, I think the Pacers are a great example here. They were a worse team than the Cavs, Knicks, and Thunder. It makes sense that they'd be looking at strategies to muck up the game. I agree that pace is inherently a neutral strategy in the sense that you play with more pace if you are better at it than your opponents.


Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


I think the bolded part is a bad assumption. If your players are better you aren't afraid of them matching up against the opponents. You welcome and encourage it. Running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matches to lessen the impact of that talent gap.

But I don't want to sound absolutist on this. If you have extremely fast players, who are also extremely talented in the open court, and have rebounding and passing catalysts to get the ball out to those players it is certainly a strategy to be employed. The first three-peat team, with Pippen, Jordan and Grant were examples and were exceptional in the open court. I can close my eyes and still see them running amok against lesser teams. But they were simply significantly more talented and athletic than all but a couple other teams in the league. That wasn't their focus and encompassing "strategy". They took advantage of the opportunities as they presented themselves. They could also beat other teams in the half court.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#107 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:35 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
The 2 worst teams in the league were both in the top 5 in pace last season. The only team in that group over .500 was Memphis with 48 wins. Why people think playing faster than everyone else leads to success in the NBA is a mystery to me. It's what bad teams have to do.

The Bulls were 2nd in pace last season. How much faster are they supposed to play?

It was a start.
*The Bulls went from a team that did what they wanted and was mediocre.
* Too a team that did listen and was mediocre.

Admittedly on the surface this seems to be pointless. From my point of view it means they are coachable and can be modelled. MJ is not walking through that door. Therefore, internal development is required.

This season is about Matias, Noa, Giddey, Coby, and Ayo possibly. The rest of these pieces are just interchangeable role players. They are not firing anyone and therefore it is important to get a team on the same page.

This is about a culture shift and not just about a record. They actually did follow the coaching. Most successful teams start out with an improved culture or are gifted a star that change their destiny.

No one is telling you that this will be fun, but this is the season of trying to instill culture. They will spend their money this off season if they believe they have found their path.


Who on the Bulls was doing "what they want"? Now if you said the Bulls went from "doing what Vuc wants" I could probably agree. What coach did that? Oh yeah... Billy.


I have no reason to believe the Bulls were yearning to play at a fast pace before last season and that somehow Vooch was the reason they weren't. DeMar was around prior to then and that's not really his game. Zach can hang with it, but he's also pretty happy to be ball-dominant in the halfcourt. And Vooch was still here and keeping up (kinda sorta) when Billy did implement the new scheme.

I wish Vooch had been out the door years ago, and think he's probably gotten more leeway than he should, but the idea that the Bulls have designed their entire philosophy around Vooch since he's been here is a little rich.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#108 » by DropStep » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:36 pm

dougthonus wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


Generally speaking, there is a somewhat natural pace though. Teams do not just sprint up and down the court, the game mostly involves half court possessions, and elite players are going to beat non elite players in the half court. When you have less talent, you like to make the game not about half court execution, and you try to do some tactic to change the tenor of the game.

One such tactic is to try and run people out of the gym and make the game faster and sloppier. Another such tactic might be to make the game overly bruising and physical and beat up other teams, but generally speaking, you try to change the game from half court basketball execution which is the traditional primary aspect of the game on both sides to something else where you have a relative advantage.


Interesting. League-wide pace also went up almost 10% in 10 years recently, which is a lot. (It's hard to imagine a runner getting 10% faster, for example.) There is an obvious overall coaching philosophy change recently that wasn't a tactical choice for a single team trying to hide deficiencies, but a tide that lifted all boats on the belief that it was a more ideal way to play basketball, partially due to analytics. So, there is less relative advantage in "playing faster" than there would have been in 2009, because the whole league has sped up to what I imagine is closer to some human limit. Has the "natural pace" then gone up 10%, or is everybody pushing above their natural rhythm? The latter would help explain the increase in injuries, despite load management.

"Play faster" is an interesting phrase, because you can't really run faster, it's hard to increase your footspeed. And it's hard to increase your mental processing speed. What we're talking about is largely changing your decision-making. You can get in better shape and use your top gear more often, but the top gear is largely what it was before. You can risk more turnovers by emphasizing speed over safety, passing over dribbling. And you can change your shot selection, considering early, distant shots as "good" where you would have passed them up before. Because of this, pace almost certainly increases randomness, rather than decreases it, even though more possessions would seem to decrease volatility in performance for good teams, as mentioned. I think it would be almost impossible to increase your pace without taking more chances - hit-ahead passes rather than walking the ball up, for example - and taking longer, riskier, more volatile shots. Which reminds me of Chuck saying the Warriors would never win a championship shooting that many jumpers... there was a kernel of truth in there. Quick, long shots aren't as unreliable as we used to think - but, they are still volatile. A 38% 3-point shooting team could easily shoot 25% or 50+% on a given night.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#109 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:38 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Indomitable wrote:It was a start.
*The Bulls went from a team that did what they wanted and was mediocre.
* Too a team that did listen and was mediocre.

Admittedly on the surface this seems to be pointless. From my point of view it means they are coachable and can be modelled. MJ is not walking through that door. Therefore, internal development is required.

This season is about Matias, Noa, Giddey, Coby, and Ayo possibly. The rest of these pieces are just interchangeable role players. They are not firing anyone and therefore it is important to get a team on the same page.

This is about a culture shift and not just about a record. They actually did follow the coaching. Most successful teams start out with an improved culture or are gifted a star that change their destiny.

No one is telling you that this will be fun, but this is the season of trying to instill culture. They will spend their money this off season if they believe they have found their path.


Who on the Bulls was doing "what they want"? Now if you said the Bulls went from "doing what Vuc wants" I could probably agree. What coach did that? Oh yeah... Billy.


I have no reason to believe the Bulls were yearning to play at a fast pace before last season and that somehow Vooch was the reason they weren't. DeMar was around prior to then and that's not really his game. Zach can hang with it, but he's also pretty happy to be ball-dominant in the halfcourt. And Vooch was still here and keeping up (kinda sorta) when Billy did implement the new scheme.

I wish Vooch had been out the door years ago, and think he's probably gotten more leeway than he should, but the idea that the Bulls have designed their entire philosophy around Vooch since he's been here is a little rich.


So, when Vuc complained 2 seasons ago, after the first game, that the offense wasn't running through him... and they immediately changed the offense...how would you characterize that?
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#110 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Oct 2, 2025 8:44 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
I agree, I think the Pacers are a great example here. They were a worse team than the Cavs, Knicks, and Thunder. It makes sense that they'd be looking at strategies to muck up the game. I agree that pace is inherently a neutral strategy in the sense that you play with more pace if you are better at it than your opponents.


Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


I think the bolded part is a bad assumption. If your players are better you aren't afraid of them matching up against the opponents. You welcome and encourage it. Running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matches to lessen the impact of that talent gap.



I see what you're saying, but this misses my point by failing to acknowledge the portion of the sentence before the bit you bolded. I said "f the place you played with had no impact on performance..." then you'd want as many possessions as possible, because the better team would become increasingly likely to prevail. It's no different than saying if you could choose a 1-game series or an 82-game series between the Bulls and Oklahoma City for the championship, the Bulls would want the 1-game series due to variance and OKC would want the 82-game series for the same reason.

Your point: "running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matchups to lessen he impact of that talent gap" is true in some instances in the real NBA, but doesn't accept my premise, and therefore is not responsive.

I agree in part with what you're saying - some teams will play fast to make up for a talent gap. I absolutely agree and I think the Bulls last year were an example of that. But, what I was saying is that this is not the only reason a team might elect to play fast. A team with [I]more
talent might also want to play faster than its opponents if playing faster suits the advantages of its roster, as did the Pacers last year.

Heck, the Showtime Lakers are the most famous fast-break team of all time, and nobody is saying it was a gimmick because Magic, Kareem, and Worthy just didn't have enough talent.

But I don't want to sound absolutist on this. If you have extremely fast players, who are also extremely talented in the open court, and have rebounding and passing catalysts to get the ball out to those players it is certainly a strategy to be employed. The first three-peat team, with Pippen, Jordan and Grant were examples and were exceptional in the open court. I can close my eyes and still see them running amok against lesser teams. But they were simply significantly more talented and athletic than all but a couple other teams in the league. That wasn't their focus and encompassing "strategy". They took advantage of the opportunities as they presented themselves. They could also beat other teams in the half court.


Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at and a great example. Playing fast could be a gimmick to make up for a talent deficiency, or it could be a way of imposing your talent superiority on another team if they can't hang with that approach. Obviously, the perfect team (like the dynasty Bulls) is just going to excel at both, but being really good at playing with pace isn't necessarily an indication of sucking and relying on gimmickry. And I don't see teams that slow it down and prefer to play a plodding style in the halfcourt ever get accused of gimmickry.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#111 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 2, 2025 10:57 pm

jnrjr79 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
Here's what would make sense to me:

If the pace you played with had no impact on performance, then better teams would want to play with more pace, because the more possessions you have, the more randomness you're taking out of the outcome by increasing the # of possessions.

But pace does has an impact on performance, so rather than being a "gimmick," it's probably more of a case-by-case thing. You're sort of viewing this as though there is some sort of inherently natural pace, and that any effort to speed things up (or, presumably, also to slow things down) constitutes "mucking up" - some sort of manipulation of the natural state of affairs. I don't really believe that. Teams have their strengths and weaknesses and should play to their strengths. If a team plays better when it plays faster, then in some sense it is "better" than its opponent if it can dictate pace and the opponent can't keep up.


I think the bolded part is a bad assumption. If your players are better you aren't afraid of them matching up against the opponents. You welcome and encourage it. Running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matches to lessen the impact of that talent gap.



I see what you're saying, but this misses my point by failing to acknowledge the portion of the sentence before the bit you bolded. I said "f the place you played with had no impact on performance..." then you'd want as many possessions as possible, because the better team would become increasingly likely to prevail. It's no different than saying if you could choose a 1-game series or an 82-game series between the Bulls and Oklahoma City for the championship, the Bulls would want the 1-game series due to variance and OKC would want the 82-game series for the same reason.

Your point: "running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matchups to lessen he impact of that talent gap" is true in some instances in the real NBA, but doesn't accept my premise, and therefore is not responsive.

I agree in part with what you're saying - some teams will play fast to make up for a talent gap. I absolutely agree and I think the Bulls last year were an example of that. But, what I was saying is that this is not the only reason a team might elect to play fast. A team with [I]more
talent might also want to play faster than its opponents if playing faster suits the advantages of its roster, as did the Pacers last year.

Heck, the Showtime Lakers are the most famous fast-break team of all time, and nobody is saying it was a gimmick because Magic, Kareem, and Worthy just didn't have enough talent.

But I don't want to sound absolutist on this. If you have extremely fast players, who are also extremely talented in the open court, and have rebounding and passing catalysts to get the ball out to those players it is certainly a strategy to be employed. The first three-peat team, with Pippen, Jordan and Grant were examples and were exceptional in the open court. I can close my eyes and still see them running amok against lesser teams. But they were simply significantly more talented and athletic than all but a couple other teams in the league. That wasn't their focus and encompassing "strategy". They took advantage of the opportunities as they presented themselves. They could also beat other teams in the half court.


Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at and a great example. Playing fast could be a gimmick to make up for a talent deficiency, or it could be a way of imposing your talent superiority on another team if they can't hang with that approach. Obviously, the perfect team (like the dynasty Bulls) is just going to excel at both, but being really good at playing with pace isn't necessarily an indication of sucking and relying on gimmickry. And I don't see teams that slow it down and prefer to play a plodding style in the halfcourt ever get accused of gimmickry.


To me, what you are saying is the equivalent of "a better baseball team would prefer 12 inning games instead of 9". While it may make sense from an academic standpoint, I don't see it as a practical strategy. But I think we pretty much agree on the premise. Interestingly, the first 3-peat Bulls were one of the slower paced teams in the league. They turned on the jets when it made sense.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#112 » by Chi town » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:27 am

https://youtu.be/3Kl6ph976G4?si=CHHLMaEPRtaIFRAS

Interesting interview by Pat.
- Said he’s lost weight and teammates commenting how he is playing faster and more physical
- Billy commented several times how physical he’s playing and attacking the glass
- Pat said he knows he needs to play better and didn’t realize how the weight he gained due to injury was hurting him… bro watch that missed dunks viral video on you
- He mentioned several times being a presence and disruptive on D

A lean Pat with a motor would be a plus player even with that contract and his poor IQ.

I will believe it when I see it for a whole season.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#113 » by Chi town » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:28 am

KC saying Bulls playing with a quiet confidence and he believes Coby will have a breakout season and Bulls will surprise people as their depth will play. He’s buying the defense and physicality too
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#114 » by Stratmaster » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:43 am

Chi town wrote:KC saying Bulls playing with a quiet confidence and he believes Coby will have a breakout season and Bulls will surprise people as their depth will play. He’s buying the defense and physicality too


Yes. They will surprise people by still being able to win 35-38 games.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#115 » by sco » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:08 pm

Chi town wrote:KC saying Bulls playing with a quiet confidence and he believes Coby will have a breakout season and Bulls will surprise people as their depth will play. He’s buying the defense and physicality too

I didn't see that. Where was that?
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#116 » by sco » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:15 pm

Chi town wrote:https://youtu.be/3Kl6ph976G4?si=CHHLMaEPRtaIFRAS

Interesting interview by Pat.
- Said he’s lost weight and teammates commenting how he is playing faster and more physical
- Billy commented several times how physical he’s playing and attacking the glass
- Pat said he knows he needs to play better and didn’t realize how the weight he gained due to injury was hurting him… bro watch that missed dunks viral video on you
- He mentioned several times being a presence and disruptive on D

A lean Pat with a motor would be a plus player even with that contract and his poor IQ.

I will believe it when I see it for a whole season.

Great watch!

I thought Billy's comment about Smith being taken out because we were a lay-up line defensively was interesting. Surprised he didn't mention that Smith was sleeping with Billy's wife ;).

On Pat, it felt like Billy was trying to be a bit tactful about Pat. It came across to me like. Yeah, Pat has been a lot better than he was last year, but not necessarily in an absolute sense.

I thought Pat's interview was the best I heard him in terms of his conveying self-awareness of his problems and owning them. I was very happy he's down 5-10lbs, and I agree his lack of being able to do offseason training last offseason with his foot was a big part of his troubles. I was also very happy that he specifically called out working on his handle this offseason. I'm still skeptical as to how much of this will show up on the court this season, but I'm rooting for the kid.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#117 » by jnrjr79 » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:40 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
I think the bolded part is a bad assumption. If your players are better you aren't afraid of them matching up against the opponents. You welcome and encourage it. Running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matches to lessen the impact of that talent gap.



I see what you're saying, but this misses my point by failing to acknowledge the portion of the sentence before the bit you bolded. I said "f the place you played with had no impact on performance..." then you'd want as many possessions as possible, because the better team would become increasingly likely to prevail. It's no different than saying if you could choose a 1-game series or an 82-game series between the Bulls and Oklahoma City for the championship, the Bulls would want the 1-game series due to variance and OKC would want the 82-game series for the same reason.

Your point: "running as fast as you can is a way to try to avoid those matchups to lessen he impact of that talent gap" is true in some instances in the real NBA, but doesn't accept my premise, and therefore is not responsive.

I agree in part with what you're saying - some teams will play fast to make up for a talent gap. I absolutely agree and I think the Bulls last year were an example of that. But, what I was saying is that this is not the only reason a team might elect to play fast. A team with [I]more
talent might also want to play faster than its opponents if playing faster suits the advantages of its roster, as did the Pacers last year.

Heck, the Showtime Lakers are the most famous fast-break team of all time, and nobody is saying it was a gimmick because Magic, Kareem, and Worthy just didn't have enough talent.

But I don't want to sound absolutist on this. If you have extremely fast players, who are also extremely talented in the open court, and have rebounding and passing catalysts to get the ball out to those players it is certainly a strategy to be employed. The first three-peat team, with Pippen, Jordan and Grant were examples and were exceptional in the open court. I can close my eyes and still see them running amok against lesser teams. But they were simply significantly more talented and athletic than all but a couple other teams in the league. That wasn't their focus and encompassing "strategy". They took advantage of the opportunities as they presented themselves. They could also beat other teams in the half court.


Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at and a great example. Playing fast could be a gimmick to make up for a talent deficiency, or it could be a way of imposing your talent superiority on another team if they can't hang with that approach. Obviously, the perfect team (like the dynasty Bulls) is just going to excel at both, but being really good at playing with pace isn't necessarily an indication of sucking and relying on gimmickry. And I don't see teams that slow it down and prefer to play a plodding style in the halfcourt ever get accused of gimmickry.


To me, what you are saying is the equivalent of "a better baseball team would prefer 12 inning games instead of 9". While it may make sense from an academic standpoint, I don't see it as a practical strategy. But I think we pretty much agree on the premise. Interestingly, the first 3-peat Bulls were one of the slower paced teams in the league. They turned on the jets when it made sense.


Yeah, agreed. A better baseball team would rather play 12 innings, a better tennis player would rather play a 5-setter than best of 3, etc. The shorter the sample size, the more likely the inferior participant wins.

(But as to pace, as I noted, this wouldn't always hold up, because if you were the worse team but had a bunch of big, strong, plodding players, you likely wouldn't benefit.)
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#118 » by dougthonus » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:41 pm

Chi town wrote:KC saying Bulls playing with a quiet confidence and he believes Coby will have a breakout season and Bulls will surprise people as their depth will play. He’s buying the defense and physicality too


I love KC, historically my favorite Bulls beat guy, but he's now a Bulls employee, and when you look at his commentary on his podcast now it clearly looks like he has shackles on what he's allowed to say. This ignores the fact that he was generally a balanced but leaning positive guy before. Now I think he's still a smart guy and will report some stuff, but his ability to be balanced in the face of genuinely negative events is gone. He's a rah rah guy now.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#119 » by jnrjr79 » Fri Oct 3, 2025 1:58 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Chi town wrote:KC saying Bulls playing with a quiet confidence and he believes Coby will have a breakout season and Bulls will surprise people as their depth will play. He’s buying the defense and physicality too


I love KC, historically my favorite Bulls beat guy, but he's now a Bulls employee, and when you look at his commentary on his podcast now it clearly looks like he has shackles on what he's allowed to say. This ignores the fact that he was generally a balanced but leaning positive guy before. Now I think he's still a smart guy and will report some stuff, but his ability to be balanced in the face of genuinely negative events is gone. He's a rah rah guy now.


Honestly, I think he's generally been an even to negative guy when predicting actual Bulls outcomes, prior to his new role. He was often predicting fewer wins than were actually achieved. But he goes along with descriptions like the Bulls being "competitive" and generally puts a gloss on it that makes his thoughts seem more optimistic than they are. Basically, he never would actually voice an objection to the overall approach, but he isn't a guy like Stacey who would often overpromise actual performance.

I haven't followed him as closely since his move to CHSN, but I'll take your word for the fact that he's become more of a pollyanna.
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Re: Bulls Media Day 9/29 2 PM ET 

Post#120 » by Indomitable » Fri Oct 3, 2025 2:12 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
The 2 worst teams in the league were both in the top 5 in pace last season. The only team in that group over .500 was Memphis with 48 wins. Why people think playing faster than everyone else leads to success in the NBA is a mystery to me. It's what bad teams have to do.

The Bulls were 2nd in pace last season. How much faster are they supposed to play?

It was a start.
*The Bulls went from a team that did what they wanted and was mediocre.
* Too a team that did listen and was mediocre.

Admittedly on the surface this seems to be pointless. From my point of view it means they are coachable and can be modelled. MJ is not walking through that door. Therefore, internal development is required.

This season is about Matias, Noa, Giddey, Coby, and Ayo possibly. The rest of these pieces are just interchangeable role players. They are not firing anyone and therefore it is important to get a team on the same page.

This is about a culture shift and not just about a record. They actually did follow the coaching. Most successful teams start out with an improved culture or are gifted a star that change their destiny.

No one is telling you that this will be fun, but this is the season of trying to instill culture. They will spend their money this off season if they believe they have found their path.


Who on the Bulls was doing "what they want"? Now if you said the Bulls went from "doing what Vuc wants" I could probably agree. What coach did that? Oh yeah... Billy.

So two years ago when he was preaching this.

Demar who the main culprit did it.

He was perceived as their leader therefore they ignored Billy.

Billy would tell them to push it and it was being walked up.

Billy being trying to get them to play this way since he got here.

That was one of the reasons for Lonzo. They played that way. I have rewatched that season a few times.

Once he went down the paced slowed.

You can dislike Billy all you want but dislike him for a reason.

I hate how he struggles to react to half time adjustments. I question his play calling all the time but he always wanted them to play with pace.
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