Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[canada_dry]

I still remember his FT debacle during his last college game... these struggles have been going on for a long time

One thing to hold out hope for was that he was a 72% career FT guy in NYK, and is only 63% here for whatever reason.

You'd assume there is some positive regression coming to him.

I'd take high 60s at this point just to build off of. Low 60s just can't be it. Into the 70s again would be nice and maybe the best we could expect.

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[bobbyp3588]

I still remember his FT debacle during his last college game... these struggles have been going on for a long time

One thing to hold out hope for was that he was a 72% career FT guy in NYK, and is only 63% here for whatever reason.

You'd assume there is some positive regression coming to him.

I'd take high 60s at this point just to build off of. Low 60s just can't be it. Into the 70s would be nice and maybe the best we could expect. [/url]

That last bit is how I’m feeling about BI and games played.

[Tor_Raps]

At what point is it fair to consider RJ’s FT shooting to be a sign of poor work ethic?

I think he’s the worst FT shooter of guys under 6’10 who actually play.

Even if it’s “just” mental (this would probably be worse), it’s got to improve or he isn’t a starter/closer in this league.

Tell us youve never played a sport without telling us you never played a sport lol.

Some people just cant do particular things well no matter how much effort they put in. Thats what makes us human...

[canada_dry]

One thing to hold out hope for was that he was a 72% career FT guy in NYK, and is only 63% here for whatever reason.

You'd assume there is some positive regression coming to him.

I'd take high 60s at this point just to build off of. Low 60s just can't be it. Into the 70s would be nice and maybe the best we could expect. [/url]

That last bit is how I’m feeling about BI and games played.

Games played in the 70s? Take it and RUN.

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[ConSarnit]

I’m not out on RJ. I think he’s a great dude. I don’t believe he’s a good fit for the SL, so what I’m concerned about is shoving him in anyway. And I also feel there’s an overrated impact for scorers if they arent defenders. RJ is a leading scorer but flat in rpm. He was 54 td at 29 usage last year. Thats not a recipe to help win games. My think with RJ is we seem to tip toe around him being a good scoring average player, or an all star part of the big 3. If he came off the bench or is our other pieces in the SL were different I wouldn’t have much to say on it. I just don’t think it’s a good fit, I think people realize Ochai would be a better fit, but Ochai is likely to not get an extension this year, and seems like the forgotten guy when imo, he’s actually a good option for the SL if we want to actually compete.

I don't disagree with you (& I really like RJ). One of my big concerns is that this team lacks scoring talent. Maybe you eventually upgrade RJ, but simply losing him I don't think helps. RJ might not be perfect, but he provides 2nd or 3rd scorer type production. Derozan wasn't perfect as a 1st option either, but we won a lot of games with him there.

Either way......I am curious to see how he looks with BI in the lineup.

I really like Ochai & think that competent 3+D players are a must if you are trying to win. We'll see if he out-prices himself as a Raptor.

Gradey is a guy who I think could be traded. He doesn't really fit this new defensive identity & we have Walter needing minutes. This is a big year for Gradey. He needs to take a big leap. If he doesn't, he'll continue to be a weak link on any lineup that he plays with. It was tough to watch last season.

We still have to play wait and see with RJ. I think 2 things need to happen before we can move off of him (and not hurt the team). Agbaji needs to prove his shooting wasn’t a fluke. If he can he could be a reasonable starting 3+D sg. We’d lose some offensive creation but we’d gain spacing and defense so it could be a wash compared to starting RJ. We’d also need one of Dick/Walter to pick up the scoring slack on the bench. If Walter (a scorer in college) could scale his scoring as a solid bench option that could provide some cover for losing RJ. Both those things need to happen before we can move on from RJ.

Now, if we could wave a magic wand and move RJ for some outcome that returns a bench scorer and quality bench big (basically splitting RJ’s $27m into 2 solid bench guys) that would really round out the roster. But that’s probably not possible in one swoop.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Agbaji wouldn't space the floor better than RJ, but he would defend better and use less possessions. The problem is those possessions would go to Scottie or IQ. Would the defense make it worth it?

In the pre-season I'd like to see Agbaji really let it fly. He should be taking more volume 3s than rookie Jamal Shead. If Walter can get more shots up, then the job will eventually go to him. Agbaji has something that really good teams need, and we really don't.

[deeps6x]

It’s tough where the hometown thing leads to us overpaying as opposed to getting a discount. I’ve got no problem with RJ if he’s willing to come off the bench. I don’t think he’s a good fit for the SL. I also see a lot of people talk about how it seems like it’s not bothering him because he said he hears it all and has no problem. He tries to brush it off as being about the money and contracts but where’s the recognition on his defensive game, efficiency and FT shooting? He’s a DeRozan light, and Raptor history has told me you need to be more to really impact winning meaningfully. When we first got him I thought Melos comments on his podcast of 20 one day 5 the next as hate, but now I kind of agree.

He also said he has no ego, but then also said he has no problem with the all star format as long as as he makes it. Is he delusional? On the ego and his all star prospects. I favour two way players because they help you win. I also don’t really believe what he says about being super confident. I think he wants to be, but if he was I don’t think he’d have the problems he has at the ft line.

Also - between him and Poeltl it’s two guys you borderline can’t play down the stretch of close games as they can’t hit ft’s. They may be started but the may not be finishing if we’re trying to win.

I do think he’s a good scorer and good guy and team mate. If they made other changes elsewhere I’d likely have a different opinion on where he fits in.

Come on now. Technically DeRozan is Barrett light, not the other way around.

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/1b3coml/23_year_old_rj_barrett_vs_23_year_old_demar/

I do wish he made a little less.

However, Barrett was better then DeRozan was at 23, at 24, and I expect he'll be better for the next few seasons as well at the same age.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barrerj01.html

[Basketball_Jones]

It’s tough where the hometown thing leads to us overpaying as opposed to getting a discount. I’ve got no problem with RJ if he’s willing to come off the bench. I don’t think he’s a good fit for the SL. I also see a lot of people talk about how it seems like it’s not bothering him because he said he hears it all and has no problem. He tries to brush it off as being about the money and contracts but where’s the recognition on his defensive game, efficiency and FT shooting? He’s a DeRozan light, and Raptor history has told me you need to be more to really impact winning meaningfully. When we first got him I thought Melos comments on his podcast of 20 one day 5 the next as hate, but now I kind of agree.

He also said he has no ego, but then also said he has no problem with the all star format as long as as he makes it. Is he delusional? On the ego and his all star prospects. I favour two way players because they help you win. I also don’t really believe what he says about being super confident. I think he wants to be, but if he was I don’t think he’d have the problems he has at the ft line.

Also - between him and Poeltl it’s two guys you borderline can’t play down the stretch of close games as they can’t hit ft’s. They may be started but the may not be finishing if we’re trying to win.

I do think he’s a good scorer and good guy and team mate. If they made other changes elsewhere I’d likely have a different opinion on where he fits in.

Come on now. Technically DeRozan is Barrett light, not the other way around.

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/1b3coml/23_year_old_rj_barrett_vs_23_year_old_demar/

I do wish he made a little less.

However, Barrett was better then DeRozan was at 23, at 24, and I expect he'll be better for the next few seasons as well at the same age.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barrerj01.html

Yeah Demar wasn’t all that good until 25, and even then you could have argued it was just more volume possessions but he maintained the same bad efficiency. I’d say he wasn’t really a true star at the time compared to his Chicago years. RJ is more limited in his creation abilities though it’s hard to see him developing handles and footwork and an iso game and his free throws are putrid he’s really a play finisher/connector and the Knicks were lucky they could end the experiment there when they acquired Brunson. I think we’ll be in a better situation with him going forward as well with a more talented creator like BI at the helm.

[YogurtProducer]

Agbaji wouldn't space the floor better than RJ.

Wondering how you figrure?

[PushDaRock]

Agbaji wouldn't space the floor better than RJ.

Wondering how you figrure?

RJ as a Raptor has shot corner 3's at a 42% clip. He gets only about a quarter of his 3's from there though in comparison to Ochai who shoots over half of his 3's them there.

They shoot about the same volume on 3's PER 36, neither is a high volume guy or makes 3's off the dribble/on the move. So, it ends up being closer than you initially think in terms of their utility as floor spacers.

[YogurtProducer]

Agbaji wouldn't space the floor better than RJ.

Wondering how you figrure?

RJ as a Raptor has shot corner 3's at a 42% clip. He gets only about a quarter of his 3's from there though in comparison to Ochai who shoots over half of his 3's them there.

They shoot about the same volume on 3's PER 36, neither is a high volume guy or makes 3's off the dribble/on the move. So, it ends up being closer than you initially think in terms of their utility as floor spacers.

FWIW, Agbaji shot 39% above the break last year and RJ shot 33%.

[PushDaRock]

Wondering how you figrure?

RJ as a Raptor has shot corner 3's at a 42% clip. He gets only about a quarter of his 3's from there though in comparison to Ochai who shoots over half of his 3's them there.

They shoot about the same volume on 3's PER 36, neither is a high volume guy or makes 3's off the dribble/on the move. So, it ends up being closer than you initially think in terms of their utility as floor spacers.

FWIW, Agbaji shot 39% above the break last year and RJ shot 33%.

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

[CPT]

TIL RJ is not responsible for his FT shooting and that he’s better at 24 than DeRozan was at 24 (his first All-Star season, btw).

Fascinating stuff.

[ConSarnit]

RJ as a Raptor has shot corner 3's at a 42% clip. He gets only about a quarter of his 3's from there though in comparison to Ochai who shoots over half of his 3's them there.

They shoot about the same volume on 3's PER 36, neither is a high volume guy or makes 3's off the dribble/on the move. So, it ends up being closer than you initially think in terms of their utility as floor spacers.

FWIW, Agbaji shot 39% above the break last year and RJ shot 33%.

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

[ATLTimekeeper]

FWIW, Agbaji shot 39% above the break last year and RJ shot 33%.

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

You have the theory right, but the scale is not recognized and so I think you are wrong. Volume ATB shooting is going to create spacing. Low volume shooters like Ochai are going to be left. The % difference just isn't enough. Ochai's shooting doesn't really threaten to change a game.

[PushDaRock]

FWIW, Agbaji shot 39% above the break last year and RJ shot 33%.

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

He's not shooting them at high volume so I just don't see it mattering much. Also am not convinced yet on the sample size either that it is sustainable.

[YogurtProducer]

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

You have the theory right, but the scale is not recognized and so I think you are wrong. Volume ATB shooting is going to create spacing. Low volume shooters like Ochai are going to be left. The % difference just isn't enough. Ochai's shooting doesn't really threaten to change a game.

but it’ll do more than RJ is the entire conversation

[ConSarnit]

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

You have the theory right, but the scale is not recognized and so I think you are wrong. Volume ATB shooting is going to create spacing. Low volume shooters like Ochai are going to be left. The % difference just isn't enough. Ochai's shooting doesn't really threaten to change a game.

I agree that volume is part of it but I would also hope that Ochai could scale up somewhat given his relative lack of experience. Ochai might be able to scale up and still stay a positive 3pt shooter. We know RJ can’t. In fact we likely have to go the opposite way with him to get him at league average 3pt shooting.

I don’t believe Ochai is a lock to be a better option than RJ. He’ll need to have another good shooting season to prove he’s a legit 3+D guy. Starting Ochai would be potential based and also for defensive reasons to give us some POA defensive option on the perimeter.

RJ vs Ochai is all theory at this point. Ochai hasn’t proven enough but if he can build off of last season it’s a start. I don’t think that’s unreasonable given this will only be his 4th season.

[ConSarnit]

The point was that if RJ took more corner 3's, the percentages would be closer. They also both only made 2.1 threes PER 36 last year. That's not enough volume to be making the D that worried about your shooting even if you do shoot a high percentage. They'll get out and contest but they aren't making the D think they can't leave them at all.

Having a 39% ATB 3pt shooter is a far bigger asset than having a 42% corner 3pt shooter.

ATB 3pt shooting is the most valuable shooting in the league. It allows you put lesser shooters (like RJ) in the corner where they are still threats. Having a shooter who you can put anywhere on the floor adds value even if the made fg are the same.

He's not shooting them at high volume so I just don't see it mattering much. Also am not convinced yet on the sample size either that it is sustainable.

Agreed on the sample size. It’s more a hope based on a guy going into year 4 who has more room to grow. Agabji is still a wild card imo.

[MEDIC]

I’m not out on RJ. I think he’s a great dude. I don’t believe he’s a good fit for the SL, so what I’m concerned about is shoving him in anyway. And I also feel there’s an overrated impact for scorers if they arent defenders. RJ is a leading scorer but flat in rpm. He was 54 td at 29 usage last year. Thats not a recipe to help win games. My think with RJ is we seem to tip toe around him being a good scoring average player, or an all star part of the big 3. If he came off the bench or is our other pieces in the SL were different I wouldn’t have much to say on it. I just don’t think it’s a good fit, I think people realize Ochai would be a better fit, but Ochai is likely to not get an extension this year, and seems like the forgotten guy when imo, he’s actually a good option for the SL if we want to actually compete.

I don't disagree with you (& I really like RJ). One of my big concerns is that this team lacks scoring talent. Maybe you eventually upgrade RJ, but simply losing him I don't think helps. RJ might not be perfect, but he provides 2nd or 3rd scorer type production. Derozan wasn't perfect as a 1st option either, but we won a lot of games with him there.

Either way......I am curious to see how he looks with BI in the lineup.

I really like Ochai & think that competent 3+D players are a must if you are trying to win. We'll see if he out-prices himself as a Raptor.

Gradey is a guy who I think could be traded. He doesn't really fit this new defensive identity & we have Walter needing minutes. This is a big year for Gradey. He needs to take a big leap. If he doesn't, he'll continue to be a weak link on any lineup that he plays with. It was tough to watch last season.

We still have to play wait and see with RJ. I think 2 things need to happen before we can move off of him (and not hurt the team). Agbaji needs to prove his shooting wasn’t a fluke. If he can he could be a reasonable starting 3+D sg. We’d lose some offensive creation but we’d gain spacing and defense so it could be a wash compared to starting RJ. We’d also need one of Dick/Walter to pick up the scoring slack on the bench. If Walter (a scorer in college) could scale his scoring as a solid bench option that could provide some cover for losing RJ. Both those things need to happen before we can move on from RJ.

Now, if we could wave a magic wand and move RJ for some outcome that returns a bench scorer and quality bench big (basically splitting RJ’s $27m into 2 solid bench guys) that would really round out the roster. But that’s probably not possible in one swoop.

The reason I think they have to hold onto RJ is BI and Scottie aren't strong enough on their own as shot creators. They need a 3rd dynamic guy. Right now the only one capable is RJ.

In my mind, the only one capable of taking RJ's place from a dynamic scorer perspective is Gradey, but Gradey would have to take a massive leap this season. It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I do think that Gradey could absorb more from BI than anyone else on the team. Who knows maybe BI will influence him to take that next step.