MMyhre wrote:HotelVitale wrote:wemby wrote:I'm far from an expert in medical issues, but Chet's injuries were mostly due to his physical nature and reckless playing style (dude won't hesitate to get in front of a freight train, or throw himself up in the air to challenge players much stronger than him), not due to team mismanagement. Freak injuries happen to every team, I'm much more inclined to assign blame with recurring injuries or rushing players back, for instance the routine "knee cleanup" procedures, meniscus removals and the like, that are nothing but a euphemism for long term pain for a short term gain. I don't think this describes the Thunder.
Sports fan special--see a very low data point pattern, conclude that it's because team is doing something obviously wrong. It's really one of the more annoying sports talk habits IMO, almost never based on any info about what teams/staff are doing and almost always assumes we're smarter for noticing something obvious than the guys who've dedicated their lives to this stuff. (Not to say we should assume they never make mistakes, just that you have to actually know what criticism you're making and get the context for it.)
Zzz. Sports fan special - know nothing yourself and assume everyone else knows nothing, while spewing up some random stuff and not actually addressing a single thing that was written because you don't comprehend it.
If you can't actually disprove anything I said, why are you even adding something to it? I have worked with this stuff and gained more knowledge because I am curious and interested. I also never give condescending comments on other peoples statements if I know oh so little on the subject myself.
I will give you some of my research into it from another post in my mother language, not going to make a new one for lazy ones like you - but for people who like to learn.
"So they had Chet on this hopeless bosuball routine with some hopeless exercises. When the guy has sticks for legs, the last thing he needs is exercises where the muscle can't work 100% because it's not in balance/can't contract properly when you have to adjust to try to get balance/gets a much lower quality of movement pattern/you compensate/gets less force produced/less resistance and a much lower quality of technical execution for the movement pattern for strength and muscle growth."
Here are some quotes from studies going through strength work in a stable setting vs instability/bosu ball junk. "The primary basis for traditional ground-based free weights over IRT for athletes is the significant force reduction that occurs when one performs force or power exercises under unstable conditions.55 With IRT exercises performed under unstable conditions,7 the mean force and power decreased 29.3%, with an effect size18 of 2.1." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3806173/
What instability can do is reduce the load on joints and provide a gentle way to train for elderly, untrained or help athletes with weak cores activate the core and stabilizing muscles with less force overall. It does not make you a more powerful athlete by itself, or increase muscle mass and strength for a trained athlete.
For beginners one study did show similar results between normal training and bosu work, but the quality of work for the beginners were iffy - and expert work on beginners with more advanced training like nordics/reverse nordics/overcoming ISO's and certain plyometrics with some (SOME, not a lot) bosu ball work for increased core / muscle stabilizer activation is useful. Nothing has ever shown bosu ball work being better than strength training on maximum muscle force production or growth + other factors for athletes or well trained people.
So thats why Chet STILL has skinny legs. They arent giving him actually useful exercises to grow his leg muscles, but doing bosu ball stuff limiting 1 his ability to contract 2 force output and more force is more adaptation and 3 you cant get into deep muscle ranges/advanced eccentric work which is a big factor for muscle growth - "Studies and systematic reviews indicate that eccentric training can be more effective than concentric training for increasing muscle mass." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18981046/
Now lets dissect why Sorber got injured, here is some of my take on it :
"Foot injuries change the way you receive power, since the foot you have injured will receive less power = the other foot and then the entire structure of the other leg overcompensates and receives more power = high chance of injury if you do not let the injured side get to 100% before resuming competition and higher intensity/load."
"So I hadn't read which side he was injured on before I wrote this - and voila = there was an injury to the structure of his left foot/toe in February, and now an anterior cruciate ligament injury in his right knee. Just as I mentioned, he has had to start jumping and competing way too early = the left side of the foot doesn't take the load as it should, your right side then takes more force and gets overloaded in every single movement. Then you think about how much force must be taken every time a 113+ kilo guy jumps and sprints, and how much a basketball player jumps, sprints, starts and stops in all directions in training - and the knee is the part that takes the most beating in jumping which is the most common action in basketball..."
Some sources of this info I am talking of:
"This complex anatomy of the foot and ankle together with the remainder of the lower limb functions to efficiently support the body weight and provide for locomotion. The foot specifically acts as a platform for stance, a shock absorber for impact during gait, and a lever to propel the body forward during stepping." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546698/#:~:text=This%20complex%20anatomy%20of%20the,the%20body%20forward%20during%20stepping.
More on the importance of the foot in terms of how capable your body is of handling and producing force in something like a jump :
"We all know that the ankle muscles, especially the plantar flexors, are key contributors to sport performance and play a critical role in accelerating the body rapidly during sprinting [1,2], cutting [3] or jumping [4]. However, these assumptions are based on an oversimplified rigid foot model, i.e., no deformation of the foot. This leads to overestimating ankle power while simultaneously underestimating the power generated by the structures within the foot [5]." https://www.sportsmith.co/articles/training-the-foot-to-improve-performance/#:~:text=The%20medial%20longitudinal%20arch%20(MLA)%20is%20a,generates%20power%20during%20the%20stance%20phase%20%5B8%2C9%5D.
"Inter-limb asymmetry may potentially place both legs at an increased risk of injury in sports; the strong leg may sustain excessive stress due to high dependence and loading, whereas the weak leg may be compromised to sustain even average load [5]. In addition, inter-limb asymmetries have been associated with increased risk of sport injury because the asymmetries may result in unequal force absorption or a loss of frontal plane stability, which are important to sustain the impacting forces [6]." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8779786/
So the foot injury is a big problem for Sorber in terms of injury risk, IF, he is rushed back to high intensity too soon. In february he has his left foot injury and already in september he gets an ACL injury. It was only 200 days between the injuries - and he had a turf toe surgery =
"Turf toe surgery recovery time varies but typically involves an initial period of immobilization, gradually progressing to weight-bearing and activity, with return to full activity often taking 4-6 months or longer."
And he injures himself barely over 6 months later. He rushed back like a young fool eager to prove himself, and the incompetence of the Thunder physical staff did not see the warning signs and correlation between all the factors I have mentioned + this :
"For TT injuries managed operatively, rehabilitation protocols consist of 4 phases and may last up 20 weeks. Without prompt treatment of TT injuries, players can have permanent MTP joint pain and stiffness, loss of push-off strength, degenerative changes and osteoarthritis, and diminished athletic performance. Athletes with low-grader injuries can expect to resume play and achieve their prior level of performance. However, among athletes with higher grade injuries, both treated non-operatively and operatively, about 70% are expected to maintain their level of performance."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10587038/
So in severe cases like his, where you need surgery you arent even guaranteed to maintain performance in up to 30 % of cases and you let him do enough damage in just 20-25 days after just the initial rehab procedure to TEAR HIS ACL?
It's incompetence. There is absolutely ZERO need for Thomas Sorber to rush into intensities than can **** tear his ACL less than 7 months away from a serious injury that increases risk of tons of other injuries.
You dont **** tear your ACL unless you are putting a ton of pressure on it in some way or another when its clearly not ready/probably been overloaded for some time due to him forcing things. Why is he allowed to do this? He is a eager kid. You as the physical staff need to take control and push back and assess his movement mechanics, inflammation/pain levels and functional status +++.
Sorber had all the time in the world, the Thunder just needed him to slowly progress his physical capacity and intensity, so he could have way less injury risk and reaquire proper non-injury risk biomechanics and force absorption with more.
Its just **** work. Stop covering for incompetence if you know nothing.
TLDR = The Thunder staff is responsible for Chet not being put through proper stress for growth and power production of his lower body, and Sorber was rushed back from a serious injury that put him at a serious risk of new injuries when all they had to do was not let him rush into high intensity situations that can cause an ACL tear so shortly after a serious injury.
I didn't need to be condescending and it's clear now you had more thought behind this than most people who post about how incompetent some team's scouts or whatever. Your tone in the last post made it seem like you really were thought you were right and didn't have to say why, which I've run into enough on here that I misread where you were coming from. My bad there.
That said, now that you have stuff to back this opinion up, it looks like your evidence doesn't get you close to your criticism. You're taking a couple of general principles and assuming that you're both right in interpreting them, that professionals don't know them, and that you don't need to know anything more about Chet's or Sorber's individual situations that the staff would know. I'll try to keep the explanation of that brief:
Chet: so here you're assuming that the ONLY leg workout Chet ever did was a bosuball thing (I haven't looked into it at all and can guarantee it wasn't), plus he's also absolutely not a beginner in weight-lifting so that point is irrelevant, and above all you're assuming that whatever bit of strength Chet could've gained from doing a different leg routine would've definitely prevented his foot injury. You're also assuming that you can skip all of the actual medical and training stuff that was individual to Chet. It's strange to think there was no reason besides ignorance that a professional training staff had Chet on whatever routine they had him on, and that it hadnt occurred to them to think about how their super skinny player could best put on weight.
Sorber: most of these quotes aren't relevant (we all get that the foot is part of athletic performance), and others contradict your two criticisms 1) that Sorber was rushed back, and 2) that rushing him back from toe surgery caused him to tear his ACL. One quote says Sorber had toe surgery 200 days before his most recent injury and that the return to full strength is 4-6 months--200 days is 6.5 months, so yeah Sorber had already gone through the max recovery period. The other relevant quote/link here says that average return to full play time was 3.4 months for turf toe surgery. That article's point about how some athletes can't return to play is interesting--if you follow the links the cited study just says that a few college athletes they followed didn't pick their sports back up after srugery (it was 4 people total, 25% of their study). It doesn't say why that happened at all. And more importantly, it absolutely does not say that returning after 6.5 months from a toe injury means you're at severe risk for knee ligament injury. So there's no support in there for the conclusion that Sorber as a toe surgery recipient should not have been doing any activity 6.5 months after the injury.
