Top 15 finishers of all-time

[PistolPeteJR]

If you’re talking about brute force finishing, then it’s Shaq, Giannis and Bron.

If you’re talking about touch and dexterity, it’s Jokic and Steph. Bron and MJ are up there in this category too.

Steph over Kyrie? No way.

[Top10alltime]

Pls, people, make your lists if you are going to be posting here

[70sFan]

If you’re talking about brute force finishing, then it’s Shaq, Giannis and Bron.

If you’re talking about touch and dexterity, it’s Jokic and Steph. Bron and MJ are up there in this category too.

Steph over Kyrie? No way.

Why not?

[Djoker]

Just remembered we also have Hakeem shot charts from here. Hakeem shot 75.1% from the rim in this 56-game sample which is mostly playoff games (49 PS 7 RS). That's probably +15% ish assuming around 60% shooting by the league which is absolutely elite although, like Kareem, he didn't shoot that many so he's probably in that second tier as he couldn't generate rim shots like say Shaq.

I'm gonna make a crude tiered ranking here just to appease the OP...

Mind you, for pre-1997 guys, the confidence intervals are wider but I'm using the data that we have as well as eye test to inform my ranking. In every tier, I will give modern guys the benefit of the doubt simply because we have more data and I do trust hard data over my eye test. Jordan is probably the only exception where we have a lot of data and I feel a bit more confident on his placement.

GOAT Tier Finishers (15% or better over league average)

1. Shaq (quite simply the GOAT finisher with a ton of data to support it)
2. Wilt (77% in a small sample and in a much tougher era for rim finishing)
3. Barkley (81% from 100-game sample)

Near GOAT Tier Finishers (around 10%-15% better than league average)

4. Lebron (more consistent than Dwight and Giannis)
5. Dwight
6. Giannis
7. Kareem (77%, lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
8. Gilmore (lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
9. Hakeem (75%, lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
10. Robinson (lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)

Great Finishers (around 7-10% better than league average)

11. Jordan (74.3% from 126 games in 1990-1992 + full career in the PS; higher volume than KD and better maintains numbers in the PS; could be a tier 2 guy based on peak but his finishing falls off after 1992 whereas the guys in Tier 2 were more consistent)
12. Durant (falls off in the PS and low volume but still super impressive over a long stretch)
13. K. Malone (high volume, beast in transition in late 80's and early 90's)
14. M. Malone (65% with a lot of z-bounds)
15. Ewing (placeholder?)

Could probably add a lot more guys to the third tier like Dr J, Davis...

And then 4th tier would be dudes like Jokic, Embiid, Stoudemire, Zion etc. that are like 5-6% above league.

[Top10alltime]

I'm gonna make a crude tiered ranking here just to appease the OP...

Unfortunately that ranking won't stop me from asking, and I'm not angry, just if people will engage with the thread, post the list.

Thanks though

[lessthanjake]

Just remembered we also have Hakeem shot charts from here. Hakeem shot 75.1% from the rim in this 56-game sample which is mostly playoff games (49 PS 7 RS). That's probably +15% ish assuming around 60% shooting by the league which is absolutely elite although, like Kareem, he didn't shoot that many so he's probably in that second tier as he couldn't generate rim shots like say Shaq.

I'm gonna make a crude tiered ranking here just to appease the OP...

Mind you, for pre-1997 guys, the confidence intervals are wider but I'm using the data that we have as well as eye test to inform my ranking. In every tier, I will give modern guys the benefit of the doubt simply because we have more data and I do trust hard data over my eye test. Jordan is probably the only exception where we have a lot of data and I feel a bit more confident on his placement.

GOAT Tier Finishers (15% or better over league average)

1. Shaq (quite simply the GOAT finisher with a ton of data to support it)
2. Wilt (77% in a small sample and in a much tougher era for rim finishing)
3. Barkley (81% from 84-game sample)

Near GOAT Tier Finishers (around 10%-15% better than league average)

4. Lebron (more consistent than Dwight and Giannis)
5. Dwight
6. Giannis
7. Kareem (77%, lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
8. Gilmore (lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
9. Hakeem (75%, lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)
10. Robinson (lower volume compared to GOAT-tier guys)

Great Finishers (around 7-10% better than league average)

11. Jordan (74.3% from 126 games in 1990-1992 + full career in the PS; higher volume than KD and better maintains numbers in the PS; could be a tier 2 guy based on peak but his finishing falls off after 1992 whereas the guys in Tier 2 were more consistent)
12. Durant (falls off in the PS and low volume but still super impressive over a long stretch)
13. K. Malone (high volume, beast in transition in late 80's and early 90's)
14. M. Malone (65% with a lot of z-bounds)
15. Ewing (placeholder?)

Could probably add a lot more guys to the third tier like Dr J, Davis...

And then 4th tier would be dudes like Jokic, Embiid, Stoudemire, Zion etc. that are like 5-6% above league.

Regarding a guy like Jokic, I think it’s worth noting that the percent of rim attempts made these days is so high that it’s almost impossible to outdo it by as much as guys in previous years did. The league average on shots within 0-3 feet is like 70% nowadays. Kind of impossible to outdo that by 10%+ if you’re someone who actually gets guarded with a lot of defensive attention (rather than being a dunker’s-spot guy). Which isn’t to say that we shouldn’t account for league context at all, but I instinctively think the league average on rim attempts these days is being driven by a significantly increased number of easy rim attempts for role players, while the ease by which star players can make rim attempts probably hasn’t increased by as much as the league average has.

A related thing is that, for big men, it’ll be easier to outdo league average on rim attempts in a low-pace environment (as opposed to today’s higher-pace environment) because transition rim attempts are the easiest ones but big men don’t tend to be the ones getting those attempts. Basically, with more transition basketball, we’d expect league rim FG% to go up but wouldn’t expect big men to have their rim FG% go up as much as the league as a whole. This would tend to drive down a big man’s rim FG% compared to league average, even if his finishing ability is just as good either way.

[DraymondGold]

Agreed with many here. If we're defining finishing as scoring at the rim (I've heard a variety of definitions -- some even say finishing to mean how well one finishes a possession with a scoring attempt in general, including e.g. catch and shoot attempts at the end of a possession -- which would obviously change the list quite a bit)... then I'm hard pressed not to choose Shaq as the top pick.

An all-time great, with a ton of impact (particularly during his peak in the playoffs), but I'd argue more of Shaq's value comes from his finishing at the rim than almost any other all-time greats.

As Djoker's data suggests (Thanks Djoker!), Shaq has a pretty massive efficiency advantage over the other guys we have data for. He has a 3-year RS peak of +17% (wowza! ). LeBron has only 1 season more than +15 (+16% in 2014, with clear drop-offs on either side), Dwight has 0 seasons more than +15 (+14.9 in 08 with a 4+% drop-off on either side), and Giannis has 1 season more than +15 (+16.2% in 21, with a 4+% drop-off on either side). Shaq's rim finishing efficiency advantage in the playoffs is plenty great too).

And I'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone has a clear volume advantage over Shaq once we adjust for era. Shaq has a volume advantage over LeBron for example (source: nbarapm -> search player -> offense -> location -> expanded). Giannis does have an advantage over Shaq, but I suspect that's aided by the era -- the wider spacing just make it so much easier to get an attempt at the rim rather than in the short midrange.

Then we consider the more subtler aspects of finishing value -- pressuring the defense, drawing fouls, resilience to playoff defenses, gravity -- and they're all so favorable to Shaq. For those who haven't, take a listen to the latest Thinking Basketball 21st Century Peaks podcast. It goes into depth into how unique Shaq's paint gravity is, and it's a real treat to listen to.

We don't have data for historical guys, but I have trouble imagining Wilt, Kareem, or Barkley pass Shaq at rim finishing specifically. Even if people have some of those other guys as better than Shaq, those other guys have so much of their value from other areas (e.g. Wilt's defense > Kareem's > Shaq's) and get more of their offensive value from other areas (Wilt's passing, Kareem's midrange) that unless you think those guys massively eclipse Shaq's overall value, it seems like Shaq's rim finishing should be better than theirs. Haven't gone too deep though.

[Djoker]

Regarding a guy like Jokic, I think it’s worth noting that the percent of rim attempts made these days is so high that it’s almost impossible to outdo it by as much as guys in previous years did. The league average on shots within 0-3 feet is like 70% nowadays. Kind of impossible to outdo that by 10%+ if you’re someone who actually gets guarded with a lot of defensive attention (rather than being a dunker’s-spot guy). Which isn’t to say that we shouldn’t account for league context at all, but I instinctively think the league average on rim attempts these days is being driven by a significantly increased number of easy rim attempts for role players, while the ease by which star players can make rim attempts probably hasn’t increased by as much as the league average has.

A related thing is that, for big men, it’ll be easier to outdo league average on rim attempts in a low-pace environment (as opposed to today’s higher-pace environment) because transition rim attempts are the easiest ones but big men don’t tend to be the ones getting those attempts. Basically, with more transition basketball, we’d expect league rim FG% to go up but wouldn’t expect big men to have their rim FG% go up as much as the league as a whole. This would tend to drive down a big man’s rim FG% compared to league average, even if his finishing ability is just as good either way.

League average numbers have gone up and someone like Giannis still manages to best them by large margins. Jokic is arguably the GOAT in that 3-10 foot area but right at the rim, he doesn't seem like an elite finisher. For instance, he's way behind Giannis who is his contemporary.

What you pointed out about bigs vs. smalls at fast pace vs. slow pace is interesting and makes sense to me. I tend to agree but then there's many factors to consider in an analysis like this. And we are kind of left in the dark because we simply don't have league averages prior to 1997. I think it's a safe assumption that they remain around 60% if we go back earlier in time matching what they are from 1997-2008 but maybe they don't match all and change a lot. Who knows...

[Top10alltime]

Agreed with many here. If we're defining finishing as scoring at the rim (I've heard a variety of definitions -- some even say finishing to mean how well one finishes a possession with a scoring attempt in general, including e.g. catch and shoot attempts at the end of a possession -- which would obviously change the list quite a bit)... then I'm hard pressed not to choose Shaq as the top pick.

An all-time great, with a ton of impact (particularly during his peak in the playoffs), but I'd argue more of Shaq's value comes from his finishing at the rim than almost any other all-time greats.

As Djoker's data suggests (Thanks Djoker!), Shaq has a pretty massive efficiency advantage over the other guys we have data for. He has a 3-year RS peak of +17% (wowza! ). LeBron has only 1 season more than +15 (+16% in 2014, with clear drop-offs on either side), Dwight has 0 seasons more than +15 (+14.9 in 08 with a 4+% drop-off on either side), and Giannis has 1 season more than +15 (+16.2% in 21, with a 4+% drop-off on either side). Shaq's rim finishing efficiency advantage in the playoffs is plenty great too).

And I'd be hard-pressed to imagine anyone has a clear volume advantage over Shaq once we adjust for era. Shaq has a volume advantage over LeBron for example (source: nbarapm -> search player -> offense -> location -> expanded). Giannis does have an advantage over Shaq, but I suspect that's aided by the era -- the wider spacing just make it so much easier to get an attempt at the rim rather than in the short midrange.

Then we consider the more subtler aspects of finishing value -- pressuring the defense, drawing fouls, resilience to playoff defenses, gravity -- and they're all so favorable to Shaq. For those who haven't, take a listen to the latest Thinking Basketball 21st Century Peaks podcast. It goes into depth into how unique Shaq's paint gravity is, and it's a real treat to listen to.

We don't have data for historical guys, but I have trouble imagining Wilt, Kareem, or Barkley pass Shaq at rim finishing specifically. Even if people have some of those other guys as better than Shaq, those other guys have so much of their value from other areas (e.g. Wilt's defense > Kareem's > Shaq's) and get more of their offensive value from other areas (Wilt's passing, Kareem's midrange) that unless you think those guys massively eclipse Shaq's overall value, it seems like Shaq's rim finishing should be better than theirs. Haven't gone too deep though.

Scoring in the RA, yes. Also do you have a top 15 finishers list, if so, what is it? Can you share it with us, please (I only opened the thread up for this, and then I'd share tracking against elite personnel showing how resilient the player is in finishing).

[PistolPeteJR]

If you’re talking about brute force finishing, then it’s Shaq, Giannis and Bron.

If you’re talking about touch and dexterity, it’s Jokic and Steph. Bron and MJ are up there in this category too.

Steph over Kyrie? No way.

Why not?

While Steph’s % from 0-3 > Kyrie’s, 65% vs 61%, Kyrie’s volume > from that distance and, qualitatively, from what I think is the general population’s perspective, much more difficult attempts, let alone creative, while still converting with high efficiency.

Not a knock on Steph, Irving’s just otherworldly here.

[trex_8063]

Steph over Kyrie? No way.

Why not?

While Steph’s % from 0-3 > Kyrie’s, 65% vs 61%, Kyrie’s volume > from that distance and, qualitatively, from what I think is the general population’s perspective, much more difficult attempts, let alone creative, while still converting with high efficiency.

Not a knock on Steph, Irving’s just otherworldly here.

I suspect most people are not awarding 'style points', though. And Kyrie's volume from that distance is not that much higher than Steph's, barely enough to offset the difference in frank efficiency.
I would call them comparable as finishers overall, perhaps an argument to be made in either direction.

[jjgp111292]

Would y'all say relative efficiency on restricted area shots for perimeter players is a little harder to evaluate in today's era where that percentage has been pumped up by the emphasis on rim running and easy shots for bigs/non-creators? Nowadays we got roleplaying guards who shoot like 80% at the rim lmao

Edit: Just saw lessthanjake say the same thing up above

[PistolPeteJR]

Why not?

While Steph’s % from 0-3 > Kyrie’s, 65% vs 61%, Kyrie’s volume > from that distance and, qualitatively, from what I think is the general population’s perspective, much more difficult attempts, let alone creative, while still converting with high efficiency.

Not a knock on Steph, Irving’s just otherworldly here.

I suspect most people are not awarding 'style points', though. And Kyrie's volume from that distance is not that much higher than Steph's, barely enough to offset the difference in frank efficiency.
I would call them comparable as finishers overall, perhaps an argument to be made in either direction.

You misunderstood. Curry's more efficient, not Kyrie. Kyrie's volume is higher.

And it's not about style points. It's about the ability to finish in a large plethora of ways while doing so efficiently. I wish I could quantify both the level of difficulty as well as the number of different ways one finishes at the rim, but I can't. And just to get ahead of potential responses speaking to "who cares how you get it done as long as you get it done", Kyrie definitely gets it done, there's no doubt about that in anyone's mind; it's just he gets it done in many other ways than Steph does, I think.

[homecourtloss]

.

Much depends on the definition of "finisher." I'm old, and the definition back in the day was someone who finished well at the rim in transition or on slashes to the hoop, while this discussion seems more focused on players who score efficiently in the restricted area as part of halfcourt offense.

I agree that this has been the case traditionally for what one considered "finishing." I think you have to delineate between certain types of "finishers."

Finishing efficiency should be evaluated in the context of shot creation. The more difficult or self-generated the opportunity, the greater the finishing burden.

There are three categories of rim finishing that we can separate methodologically:

Assisted finishes
--These come from designed plays: dump-offs, lobs, post feeds.
--The finisher’s role is execution, not creation.
--Examples: Shaquille O’Neal, DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard, AD

Putbacks/Offensive rebounds
--These are somewhat self-generated through positioning and strength, but not through on-ball creation.
--The player earns the attempt via rebounding, not off-the-dribble skill.
Examples: Moses Malone, prime Shaq, Giannis to an extent, Barkley in Philly

Unassisted / Self-created finishes
--These come from beating defenders, handling the ball, attacking in transition, and finishing through contact.
--The player is both creator and finisher.
Examples: LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade, Curry, Kyrie, Magic.

If you separate finishing types, the hierarchy looks different:



So if two players both finish at +15% rRIM, someone generating his own shots seems a lot more impressive.

To rank “finishers” in any real meaningful way, you can adjust for creation type by separate assisted vs. unassisted rim makes, weight for volume byhow many attempts per 100 possessions come at the rim, include playtype context by transition, isolation, post-ups, offensive rebounds. I don't have the time to do this year, but it would be interesting to look.

With this said, it still might be Shaq given how far ahead of his peers he is but to me something like 2017 LeBron or 2014 seems more impressive given how those shots at the rim are generated. Post Philadelphia Barkley had lost athleticism, but became a very crafty finisher with his offhand and off the dribble with very subtle improvements in his footwork. and they can be many more delineations.

[Top10alltime]

.

Much depends on the definition of "finisher." I'm old, and the definition back in the day was someone who finished well at the rim in transition or on slashes to the hoop, while this discussion seems more focused on players who score efficiently in the restricted area as part of halfcourt offense.

I agree that this has been the case traditionally for what one considered "finishing." I think you have to delineate between certain types of "finishers."

Finishing efficiency should be evaluated in the context of shot creation. The more difficult or self-generated the opportunity, the greater the finishing burden.

There are three categories of rim finishing that we can separate methodologically:

Assisted finishes
--These come from designed plays: dump-offs, lobs, post feeds.
--The finisher’s role is execution, not creation.
--Examples: Shaquille O’Neal, DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard, AD

Putbacks/Offensive rebounds
--These are somewhat self-generated through positioning and strength, but not through on-ball creation.
--The player earns the attempt via rebounding, not off-the-dribble skill.
Examples: Moses Malone, prime Shaq, Giannis to an extent, Barkley in Philly

Unassisted / Self-created finishes
--These come from beating defenders, handling the ball, attacking in transition, and finishing through contact.
--The player is both creator and finisher.
Examples: LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade, Curry, Kyrie, Magic.

If you separate finishing types, the hierarchy looks different:



So if two players both finish at +15% rRIM, someone generating his own shots seems a lot more impressive.

To rank “finishers” in any real meaningful way, you can adjust for creation type by separate assisted vs. unassisted rim makes, weight for volume byhow many attempts per 100 possessions come at the rim, include playtype context by transition, isolation, post-ups, offensive rebounds. I don't have the time to do this year, but it would be interesting to look.

With this said, it still might be Shaq given how far ahead of his peers he is but to me something like 2017 LeBron or 2014 seems more impressive given how those shots at the rim are generated. Post Philadelphia Barkley had lost athleticism, but became a very crafty finisher with his offhand and off the dribble with very subtle improvements in his footwork. and they can be many more delineations.

Ooh, this is actually very interesting! I might as well track this, to separate the players finishing (again, VOTE to make this happen).

I should also add how much rim pressure each of these player's added, so this could be more meaningful, thank you.

[Top10alltime]

Would y'all say relative efficiency on restricted area shots for perimeter players is a little harder to evaluate in today's era where that percentage has been pumped up by the emphasis on rim running and easy shots for bigs/non-creators? Nowadays we got roleplaying guards who shoot like 80% at the rim lmao

Edit: Just saw lessthanjake say the same thing up above

This is why we are evaluating era relative chat, no vacuum thing like someone like One_and_Done would want to do...

We HAVE to factor volume AND efficiency into this, so roleplayer guards efficiency wouldn't matter if they shoot 1 shot per game at the rim.

[trex_8063]

You misunderstood. Curry's more efficient, not Kyrie. Kyrie's volume is higher.

Yes, I know. I stated both of these things outright in the post you quoted. I also noted that Kyrie's volume is not that much higher, to the degree that it's debatable as to whether that should offset the efficiency edge [in Steph's favour].

And it's not about style points. It's about the ability to finish in a large plethora of ways while doing so efficiently.

But is he, though [finishing them "efficiently"]? Or does it just stand out in your mind when he DOES finish them in spectacular fashion?
It would take some analysis. It could be that he's only finishing the REALLY high degree of difficulty shots at a rate of ~50%......and finishes the rest at a rate comparable to Steph Curry. i.e. it's possible those occasional REALLY hard finishes he attempts that are drawing his overall % down below Curry's, because Curry will rarely even attempt to go in among the trees if it's going to be that difficult.

The subtext here is that maybe they're not always good attempts to begin with, no matter how acrobatic they look.


I'm just pitching a hypothetical here. But if it were found to be essentially correct, then it is indeed simply awarding Kyrie 'style points' for putting himself in a position to finish a difficult shot (which perhaps should have been reconsidered).

[Top10alltime]

And then you have Giannis at the nexus of them.

Definitely not top 3. Top 10 maybe, although that's hard to argue...

You’re being too obvious

Yes, he is a top 3 finisher of all time, when:

His slashing easily gets exposed in the playoffs
A terrible lob threat
Can't score at all against double bigs
Can't finish against elite personnel
Isn't a reliable player in putbacks
Picks up his dribble too much (Big thing IMO, this keeps him from being top 10)

OFC, there are clearly many many pros to Giannis game, but let's consider this in before him being top 3. Obviously, he's an ATG finisher (90% he is a top 15 finisher of all-time), but top 3? Even with Giannis, that's very much over-hyping his finishing.

[Top10alltime]

What's your problem with Gilmore finishing ability?

Mismatches. Other than scoring at stationary position. Still very great (top 15 maybe), just not top 10.

I think it's very hard to put him outside top 10. The efficiency numbers he put up were absolutely insane, he looked like a modern rim runner by FG% but his playstyle was very typical to the oldschool post up center. He was insanely good at finishing through traffic, but also his finishing touch was really good, especially for a guy of his size.

I think you underrate older players here a little bit. I don't see how you can push Jordan tier ahead of Julius Erving either.

Maybe, I haven't really watched too much of Artis, just my observations, from what I've watched.

[homecourtloss]

.

Much depends on the definition of "finisher." I'm old, and the definition back in the day was someone who finished well at the rim in transition or on slashes to the hoop, while this discussion seems more focused on players who score efficiently in the restricted area as part of halfcourt offense.

I agree that this has been the case traditionally for what one considered "finishing." I think you have to delineate between certain types of "finishers."

Finishing efficiency should be evaluated in the context of shot creation. The more difficult or self-generated the opportunity, the greater the finishing burden.

There are three categories of rim finishing that we can separate methodologically:

Assisted finishes
--These come from designed plays: dump-offs, lobs, post feeds.
--The finisher’s role is execution, not creation.
--Examples: Shaquille O’Neal, DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard, AD

Putbacks/Offensive rebounds
--These are somewhat self-generated through positioning and strength, but not through on-ball creation.
--The player earns the attempt via rebounding, not off-the-dribble skill.
Examples: Moses Malone, prime Shaq, Giannis to an extent, Barkley in Philly

Unassisted / Self-created finishes
--These come from beating defenders, handling the ball, attacking in transition, and finishing through contact.
--The player is both creator and finisher.
Examples: LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade, Curry, Kyrie, Magic.

If you separate finishing types, the hierarchy looks different:



So if two players both finish at +15% rRIM, someone generating his own shots seems a lot more impressive.

To rank “finishers” in any real meaningful way, you can adjust for creation type by separate assisted vs. unassisted rim makes, weight for volume byhow many attempts per 100 possessions come at the rim, include playtype context by transition, isolation, post-ups, offensive rebounds. I don't have the time to do this year, but it would be interesting to look.

With this said, it still might be Shaq given how far ahead of his peers he is but to me something like 2017 LeBron or 2014 seems more impressive given how those shots at the rim are generated. Post Philadelphia Barkley had lost athleticism, but became a very crafty finisher with his offhand and off the dribble with very subtle improvements in his footwork. and they can be many more delineations.

Ooh, this is actually very interesting! I might as well track this, to separate the players finishing (again, VOTE to make this happen).

I should also add how much rim pressure each of these player's added, so this could be more meaningful, thank you.

Do it--if you are going to do it by hand, it's gonna take a lot of time, though and – if you're gonna scrub some data then it's possible. I would love to do it, but I just don't have time right now.