How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

Yes there are several. If you've gone back and forth dozens of times in this thread, surely you have 8 minutes to watch the video, detailing his poor rotations, gambling for steals, and ball watching. You asked for video of specifics, here it is. Don't dismiss it, this is what you asked for. Watch it. These are big playoff games, in a series where he lost to a younger team and had home court advantage in the series.

And yes, the narrator is annoying.

Dude it's some guy screaming to his mom to bring him cheetos and more lotion for his happy times while the video is paused and what look like random plays...

I've now watched the whole thing...I saw a few swipes behind a play on Edwards.

Overall this looks like a video against using Jokic in drop. Not the discussion of him gambling for steals. And happy to agree Jokic's not very mobile in those drop sets and Malone has to game plan around that better.

I did notice one guy in the comments said the whole channel is intended as a meme, so again I can't listen to this guy scream at his mom for more "Me time". But that seems more logical.

The guys screaming is annoying, yes. But thats besides the point. He points to specific examples of Jokic selling out/gambling for steals, not rotating, ball watching etc. These were huge games in which his team lost a 3-2 series lead as defending champions to an inexperienced Minnesota team, in embarrassing fashion. These are video examples which you asked for. The narrator, while annoying, makes sense and details each shortcoming, and how it effects his team. We both know the highlighted occurrences in this video are common for Jokic, and often worse in the regular season rather than in these huge playoff games he is detailing.

All time greats don't lose closeout game 6s by 45 points or blow 20 point game 7 second half leads at home to teams like 24' Minnesota. They just don't. His defense highlighted in this video was a big part of it.

When were the plays? Again I'm not listening to some kid scream while he frantically draws lines. Jokic looks to be moving where he's supposed to be more often than not or flat out is getting beat. I'm not seeing gambling or selling out for steals here. Gambling for position perhaps...

If we go through games with almost all big men in the game today, we'll see plays like this. We see it with Gobert who is a top 25 all time defender in league history.

[hardenASG13]

Dude it's some guy screaming to his mom to bring him cheetos and more lotion for his happy times while the video is paused and what look like random plays...

I've now watched the whole thing...I saw a few swipes behind a play on Edwards.

Overall this looks like a video against using Jokic in drop. Not the discussion of him gambling for steals. And happy to agree Jokic's not very mobile in those drop sets and Malone has to game plan around that better.

I did notice one guy in the comments said the whole channel is intended as a meme, so again I can't listen to this guy scream at his mom for more "Me time". But that seems more logical.

The guys screaming is annoying, yes. But thats besides the point. He points to specific examples of Jokic selling out/gambling for steals, not rotating, ball watching etc. These were huge games in which his team lost a 3-2 series lead as defending champions to an inexperienced Minnesota team, in embarrassing fashion. These are video examples which you asked for. The narrator, while annoying, makes sense and details each shortcoming, and how it effects his team. We both know the highlighted occurrences in this video are common for Jokic, and often worse in the regular season rather than in these huge playoff games he is detailing.

All time greats don't lose closeout game 6s by 45 points or blow 20 point game 7 second half leads at home to teams like 24' Minnesota. They just don't. His defense highlighted in this video was a big part of it.

When were the plays? Again I'm not listening to some kid scream while he frantically draws lines. Jokic looks to be moving where he's supposed to be more often than not or flat out is getting beat. I'm not seeing gambling or selling out for steals here. Gambling for position perhaps...

If we go through games with almost all big men in the game today, we'll see plays like this. We see it with Gobert who is a top 25 all time defender in league history.

The plays are self evident and explained in the video, which again you asked for. If you can't handle the narrator (who i agree is over the top and annoying), and want to dismiss the clear video evidence, thats on you (denial of evidence you asked for).

Yes you see plays like this for other centers. It happens more often with Jokic, and he's slower than most. I'm simply giving you video evidence which you asked for and youre dismissing it because you don't like the narrator. It's plain to see in these important games highlighted in the video, which again, all time greats don't lose by 45 in a close out opportunity game 6 or blow 20 point second half game 7 leads on their homecout to inexperienced teams like 24' Minnesota. It doesn't happen.

[dhsilv2]

https://www.nba.com/news/film-study-can-new-additions-help-nuggets-defense

Second Sprectrum, they register a ball screen whenever one is set vs Synergy (NBA.com’s advanced stats) only registers a ball screen if it ends in a FGA, TOV or FT

Wait...if this is where you're pulling all this. Just to be clear. Your argument isn't that Jokic over his career isn't an average to plus defender. But he was bad just in 2025?

No, that he’s a bad defender period.

The same article you're quoting shows Jokic with near elite numbers in these same stats the prior year...

Now I'm not sure where they're getting their stats here. This is from NBA.com and synergy's play by play tracking.


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler

Pick the year. Make sure to pick defense and it resets every time it's annoying.

This is for pick and roll ball handler. This is the set where Jokic defends the most plays the last two years and he's very good

2020 - 0.2 POS Per game 1.06 PPP 10.8 percentile (terrible)
2021 - 0.2 1.73 0.00 (worst in the league level)
2022 - Didn't qualify
2023 - Didn't qualify
2024 - 9.3 0.8 83.8
2025 - 10.7 0.79 82.4

Here he's not very good but it's not frequent.
Pick & Roll Roll Man
2020 - 1.1 1.13 34.6
2021 - 0.9 0.88 71.4
2022 - 1.3 .96 57.6
2023 - 1.1 1.2 25.4
2024 - 1.6 1.02 59.2
2025 - 0.9 1.38 14.7

In the playoffs his numbers do drop, but they remain around the midway point and the nuggets have faced some of the better pick and roll teams imo. So you can take this data a few different ways, but at least with the public data I can actually look at. Jokic's pick and roll defense seems exploitable (added in film viewing) but overall reasonably sound.

But all that said, if you wanted to argue that Jokic took a step back defensively last year, I don't think anyone is here to argue with you. He did and a few teammates did as well. Denver was worse defensively last year and Jokic was very much a part of that.

[dhsilv2]

The guys screaming is annoying, yes. But thats besides the point. He points to specific examples of Jokic selling out/gambling for steals, not rotating, ball watching etc. These were huge games in which his team lost a 3-2 series lead as defending champions to an inexperienced Minnesota team, in embarrassing fashion. These are video examples which you asked for. The narrator, while annoying, makes sense and details each shortcoming, and how it effects his team. We both know the highlighted occurrences in this video are common for Jokic, and often worse in the regular season rather than in these huge playoff games he is detailing.

All time greats don't lose closeout game 6s by 45 points or blow 20 point game 7 second half leads at home to teams like 24' Minnesota. They just don't. His defense highlighted in this video was a big part of it.

When were the plays? Again I'm not listening to some kid scream while he frantically draws lines. Jokic looks to be moving where he's supposed to be more often than not or flat out is getting beat. I'm not seeing gambling or selling out for steals here. Gambling for position perhaps...

If we go through games with almost all big men in the game today, we'll see plays like this. We see it with Gobert who is a top 25 all time defender in league history.

The plays are self evident and explained in the video, which again you asked for. If you can't handle the narrator (who i agree is over the top and annoying), and want to dismiss the clear video evidence, thats on you (denial of evidence you asked for).

Yes you see plays like this for other centers. It happens more often with Jokic, and he's slower than most. I'm simply giving you video evidence which you asked for and youre dismissing it because you don't like the narrator. It's plain to see in these important games highlighted in the video, which again, all time greats don't lose by 45 in a close out opportunity game 6 or blow 20 point second half game 7 leads on their homecout to inexperienced teams like 24' Minnesota. It doesn't happen.

I watched and did not see the plays you're wanting me to see. Why can't you simply point them out?

[hardenASG13]

When were the plays? Again I'm not listening to some kid scream while he frantically draws lines. Jokic looks to be moving where he's supposed to be more often than not or flat out is getting beat. I'm not seeing gambling or selling out for steals here. Gambling for position perhaps...

If we go through games with almost all big men in the game today, we'll see plays like this. We see it with Gobert who is a top 25 all time defender in league history.

The plays are self evident and explained in the video, which again you asked for. If you can't handle the narrator (who i agree is over the top and annoying), and want to dismiss the clear video evidence, thats on you (denial of evidence you asked for).

Yes you see plays like this for other centers. It happens more often with Jokic, and he's slower than most. I'm simply giving you video evidence which you asked for and youre dismissing it because you don't like the narrator. It's plain to see in these important games highlighted in the video, which again, all time greats don't lose by 45 in a close out opportunity game 6 or blow 20 point second half game 7 leads on their homecout to inexperienced teams like 24' Minnesota. It doesn't happen.

I watched and did not see the plays you're wanting me to see. Why can't you simply point them out?

When he is hedging or trapping (attempting to) he gets cement feet. He tries to steal the passes out of them, rather than recovering. If he doesn't get the steal or deflections, he's out of the play. This is gambling for steals (if he doesn't get them, he's out of the play and his teammates are at a disadvantage) and it's highlighted several times in the video. Also where he backpedals in transition, and steps up to try to steal the ball from Edwards at mid court. Of course, Edwards easily dribbles by him and has a layup. Thats gambling for a steal, as when he doesnt get it as he steps up, rather than just running back to the paint as he should, it leads to an easy transition bucket.

Examples of poor (or no) rotation or recovery are also highlighted, as well as ball watching leaving his teammates blind to flare screens. He pretty much just roams around the backline, watching the ball and hoping to get deflections or steals. And while he does get them at times, he gives up alot at the expense of doing so. This is highlighted and explained in the video, where again it's self evident.

[dhsilv2]

The plays are self evident and explained in the video, which again you asked for. If you can't handle the narrator (who i agree is over the top and annoying), and want to dismiss the clear video evidence, thats on you (denial of evidence you asked for).

Yes you see plays like this for other centers. It happens more often with Jokic, and he's slower than most. I'm simply giving you video evidence which you asked for and youre dismissing it because you don't like the narrator. It's plain to see in these important games highlighted in the video, which again, all time greats don't lose by 45 in a close out opportunity game 6 or blow 20 point second half game 7 leads on their homecout to inexperienced teams like 24' Minnesota. It doesn't happen.

I watched and did not see the plays you're wanting me to see. Why can't you simply point them out?

When he is hedging or trapping (attempting to) he gets cement feet. He tries to steal the passes out of them, rather than recovering. If he doesn't get the steal or deflections, he's out of the play. This is gambling for steals (if he doesn't get them, he's out of the play and his teammates are at a disadvantage) and it's highlighted several times in the video. Also where he backpedals in transition, and steps up to try to steal the ball from Edwards at mid court. Of course, Edwards easily dribbles by him and has a layup. Thats gambling for a steal, as when he doesnt get it as he steps up, rather than just running back to the paint as he should, it leads to an easy transition bucket.

Examples of poor (or no) rotation or recovery are also highlighted, as well as ball watching leaving his teammates blind to flare screens. He pretty much just roams around the backline, watching the ball and hoping to get deflections or steals. And while he does get them at times, he gives up alot at the expense of doing so. This is highlighted and explained in the video, where again it's self evident.

Gotcha, yeah I would generally consider these the best plays given his foot speed and rim game. Jokic coming from behind imo is not a good defensive play. I"ll just agree to disagree.

[DimesandKnicks]

Wait...if this is where you're pulling all this. Just to be clear. Your argument isn't that Jokic over his career isn't an average to plus defender. But he was bad just in 2025?

No, that he’s a bad defender period.

The same article you're quoting shows Jokic with near elite numbers in these same stats the prior year...

Now I'm not sure where they're getting their stats here. This is from NBA.com and synergy's play by play tracking.


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler

Pick the year. Make sure to pick defense and it resets every time it's annoying.

This is for pick and roll ball handler. This is the set where Jokic defends the most plays the last two years and he's very good

2020 - 0.2 POS Per game 1.06 PPP 10.8 percentile (terrible)
2021 - 0.2 1.73 0.00 (worst in the league level)
2022 - Didn't qualify
2023 - Didn't qualify
2024 - 9.3 0.8 83.8
2025 - 10.7 0.79 82.4

Here he's not very good but it's not frequent.
Pick & Roll Roll Man
2020 - 1.1 1.13 34.6
2021 - 0.9 0.88 71.4
2022 - 1.3 .96 57.6
2023 - 1.1 1.2 25.4
2024 - 1.6 1.02 59.2
2025 - 0.9 1.38 14.7

In the playoffs his numbers do drop, but they remain around the midway point and the nuggets have faced some of the better pick and roll teams imo. So you can take this data a few different ways, but at least with the public data I can actually look at. Jokic's pick and roll defense seems exploitable (added in film viewing) but overall reasonably sound.

But all that said, if you wanted to argue that Jokic took a step back defensively last year, I don't think anyone is here to argue with you. He did and a few teammates did as well. Denver was worse defensively last year and Jokic was very much a part of that.

Before I respond, are you ever going to explain where you got that 1.5 and 1.1 number from?

[dhsilv2]

No, that he’s a bad defender period.

The same article you're quoting shows Jokic with near elite numbers in these same stats the prior year...

Now I'm not sure where they're getting their stats here. This is from NBA.com and synergy's play by play tracking.


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler

Pick the year. Make sure to pick defense and it resets every time it's annoying.

This is for pick and roll ball handler. This is the set where Jokic defends the most plays the last two years and he's very good

2020 - 0.2 POS Per game 1.06 PPP 10.8 percentile (terrible)
2021 - 0.2 1.73 0.00 (worst in the league level)
2022 - Didn't qualify
2023 - Didn't qualify
2024 - 9.3 0.8 83.8
2025 - 10.7 0.79 82.4

Here he's not very good but it's not frequent.
Pick & Roll Roll Man
2020 - 1.1 1.13 34.6
2021 - 0.9 0.88 71.4
2022 - 1.3 .96 57.6
2023 - 1.1 1.2 25.4
2024 - 1.6 1.02 59.2
2025 - 0.9 1.38 14.7

In the playoffs his numbers do drop, but they remain around the midway point and the nuggets have faced some of the better pick and roll teams imo. So you can take this data a few different ways, but at least with the public data I can actually look at. Jokic's pick and roll defense seems exploitable (added in film viewing) but overall reasonably sound.

But all that said, if you wanted to argue that Jokic took a step back defensively last year, I don't think anyone is here to argue with you. He did and a few teammates did as well. Denver was worse defensively last year and Jokic was very much a part of that.

Before I respond, are you ever going to explain where you got that 1.5 and 1.1 number from?

1.5 was based on the offensive rebound rates on off and his minutes. I ball parked it to about 1.5 defensive rebounds per game kept away...which is less than he actually gets when we look at contested but I was ball parking off just the on off as I was trying to make a point. 1.1 is roughly what teams score when they have the ball.

[TK Smart]

I thought that at one point, but I'm not sure.

Lets start with the voter side since a lot of people value that. MVP share.

Jokic is 7th all time in MVP voting. Giannis is 13th. Both by this have a case for top 15, but that's a meaningful seperation. 4.460 vs 4.175. Between them are Wilt, Shaq, Malone, Duncan, and Kobe.

Career PER (I hate this metric but lets just use it). Jokic is 1st all time at 28.51 (obviously this will come down if/when he ages out). Giannis is 8th at 25.82. Guys between them. Jordan, Lebron, AD, Shaq, Robinson, and Wilt (fake PER but whatever).

WS - Jokic is 44th all time (argument strongly against top 15). Giannis despite that early lead, is 51st. Ewing, Carter, Pippen, Marion, Butler, Billups are between them.

VORP - Jokic is 22 (another strong argument against top 15) and Giannis 29th. Drexler, Miller, Pierce, Pippen, Wade, and Payton between them.

WS/48 Jokic first all time. Giannis 22nd...too many to list between them.

BPM - again Jokic first all time with Giannis 9th. MJ, Lebron, Doncic, Magic, Robinson, Bird and Stockton between them.

If your argument is that Jokic has dominated more and his extra MVP is a strong argument there. I think it's clear there is a very real separation statistically with these guys despite Giannis having 2 more allstar seasons.

Giannis is like 2 months older than Jokic.


What year of their life would you say Jokic surpassed Giannis as a player? 2022?

I think 2024 is when I decided but 2023 likely was the point where Jokic had started to pass Giannis.

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

[BelgradeNugget]

Giannis is like 2 months older than Jokic.


What year of their life would you say Jokic surpassed Giannis as a player? 2022?

I think 2024 is when I decided but 2023 likely was the point where Jokic had started to pass Giannis.

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

It wasn't 2023 the first year that Jokic become better player of the two it was the year he overlaped him all time.

MVP votes rankings

2016/17 Giannis 7th Jokic no votes
2017/18 Giannis 6th Jokic no votes
2018/19 Giannis 1st Jokic 4th
2019/20 Giannis 1st Jokic 9th
2020/21 Jokic 1st Giannis 4th
2021/22 Jokic 1st Giannis 3rd
2022/23 Jokic 2nd Giannis 3rd
2023/24 Jokic 1st Giannis 4th
2024/25 Jokic 2nd Giannis 3rd

Jokic become better player in 20/21, but due to Giannis being better in 4 previous seasons it took Jokic some time to overlap him all time. In the last two seasons separation grown enough where they are not one after the other in pair any more.

[dhsilv2]

Giannis is like 2 months older than Jokic.


What year of their life would you say Jokic surpassed Giannis as a player? 2022?

I think 2024 is when I decided but 2023 likely was the point where Jokic had started to pass Giannis.

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

[dhsilv2]

I think 2024 is when I decided but 2023 likely was the point where Jokic had started to pass Giannis.

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

It wasn't 2023 the first year that Jokic become better player of the two it was the year he overlaped him all time.

MVP votes rankings

2016/17 Giannis 7th Jokic no votes
2017/18 Giannis 6th Jokic no votes
2018/19 Giannis 1st Jokic 4th
2019/20 Giannis 1st Jokic 9th
2020/21 Jokic 1st Giannis 4th
2021/22 Jokic 1st Giannis 3rd
2022/23 Jokic 2nd Giannis 3rd
2023/24 Jokic 1st Giannis 4th
2024/25 Jokic 2nd Giannis 3rd

Jokic become better player in 20/21, but due to Giannis being better in 4 previous seasons it took Jokic some time to overlap him all time. In the last two seasons separation grown enough where they are not one after the other in pair any more.

Glad someone read me right there. I was like "how on earth did he think that".

[GrindCityHustle]

He is for most people I thought...Even as an old head I have a lot of 90s players knocked off in favor of him.

[TK Smart]

I think 2024 is when I decided but 2023 likely was the point where Jokic had started to pass Giannis.

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

[dhsilv2]

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

I don't see offense and defense as two different thing. Case and point turnovers on offense, result in bad defensive results. Missed shots create better offense for the other team. They aren't things you can actually separate.

With that said, I would argue I value defense more than nearly anyone. The problem here is you're seeing gap that I don't see. Jokic is a perfectly playable defensive player and while Giannis is a great defender, I don't consider him DPOY level either.

[hardenASG13]

Okay let's say 2023 is the first year Jokic actually made a real case that he was the better player between the two. So from the moment Jokic entered the league until 2022, Giannis has always been the better player. That's 8 straight seasons of a guy that's only 2 months older than you (a peer in every sense of the word, they'd be in the same high school class in the U.S) outplaying you in your era. You're giving Giannis an argument for 2023. So this gives us the 2024 and 2025 seasons where Jokic is outplaying Giannis. That has to count for something. I just can't see how Jokic has done enough in the last 2 seasons to outweigh the first 8 where it was clearly Giannis to where there is any separation in an all time rankings list. If Jokic is top 10, Giannis is top 10, if Jokic is top 15, Giannis is top 15. Unless for you it's Jokic 15, Giannis 16 or Jokic 10, Giannis 11.

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. It's was a very similar situation in 2022 as Westbrooks MVP (6 seed, no help, loses first round). But westbrooks MVP gets slammed, while Jokics is celebrated as the best player in the league that year.His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those MVP years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

[TK Smart]

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

I don't see offense and defense as two different thing. Case and point turnovers on offense, result in bad defensive results. Missed shots create better offense for the other team. They aren't things you can actually separate.

With that said, I would argue I value defense more than nearly anyone. The problem here is you're seeing gap that I don't see. Jokic is a perfectly playable defensive player and while Giannis is a great defender, I don't consider him DPOY level either.

What was missing in Giannis's game in 21 and 22 on the defensive side of the ball that wasn't there in 20? Or did you not think Giannis was at that tier when he won DPOY?


Why do you believe he was not on that tier if that is the case?

[dhsilv2]

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

where do you get these things? I've never heard such arguments. People were saying Jokic should win the MVP because he was the best player in 2021 just like they said he should win it over Embiid because again he was the better player.

[TK Smart]

Sorry, I guess I understood you wrong. I am saying that's when his career value passed Giannis. Obviously Jokic was a better player before that! Jokic has been better from 2021 till today. Why would you not instantly know I read you wrong saying 2023? lol

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. It's was a very similar situation in 2022 as Westbrooks MVP (6 seed, no help, loses first round). But westbrooks MVP gets slammed, while Jokics is celebrated as the best player in the league that year.His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those MVP years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

I'll definitely say I've never in my life seen a dude win back to back MVPs, one of those MVPs he won DPOY in the same season, and then the next season in 2021 he wins the FMVP averaging 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball.

Yet we're crowning the dude that went 25/13/6 53 TS% and was swept by the same team while he got barbecued on the defensive side of the ball. This is crazy to me. There's zero argument for Jokic over Giannis in 2021 imo. I don't see it at all.

[hardenASG13]

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

where do you get these things? I've never heard such arguments. People were saying Jokic should win the MVP because he was the best player in 2021 just like they said he should win it over Embiid because again he was the better player.

You don't think voter fatigue (giannis having won the previous 2 MVPs and losing in the playoffs, same scenario as Jokic in 23) and games played factored into Jokic winning MVP in 2021? That made him the best player? I don't think he was better than Giannis that year, no. He just played 11 more games and there was no way in hell Giannis was going to win MVP after losing to the first good team he played in each of the previous 2 playoffs, where he was the regular season MVP.