How many Lebron years over Peak Hakeem?

[Cavsfansince84]

Lebron having a subpar finals in 11 doesn't negate the rest of the season. If Hakeem was in his place they probably don't make the finals to begin with, even though Hakeem was a better fit with Wade and Bosh tbh.

2nd year Hakeem made the finals with an ok supporting cast and knocked off the Showtime Lakers then took a near goat level team to 6 in the finals. I think peak Hakeem would get the job done. I think they'd actually win the title tbh.

[One_and_Done]

Lebron having a subpar finals in 11 doesn't negate the rest of the season. If Hakeem was in his place they probably don't make the finals to begin with, even though Hakeem was a better fit with Wade and Bosh tbh.

2nd year Hakeem made the finals with an ok supporting cast and knocked off the Showtime Lakers then took a near goat level team to 6 in the finals. I think peak Hakeem would get the job done. I think they'd actually win the title tbh.

Hakeem has a string of early exits too, and even missed the playoffs in 92, all in a much weaker league.

[Cavsfansince84]

Hakeem has a string of early exits too, and even missed the playoffs in 92, all in a much weaker league.

Houston had a Minny/KG level of ineptness from like 87-92. I'd say carrying them to 1st rd exits by itself was an accomplishment and if you look at the series he had they are mostly all very strong. I'm not going to debate this to death though. Agree or disagree and that's fine.

[One_and_Done]

Hakeem has a string of early exits too, and even missed the playoffs in 92, all in a much weaker league.

Houston had a Minny/KG level of ineptness from like 87-92. I'd say carrying them to 1st rd exits by itself was an accomplishment and if you look at the series he had they are mostly all very strong. I'm not going to debate this to death though. Agree or disagree and that's fine.

That isn't true at all, something I've discussed before at length. Also prime Lebron showed he could carry garbage teams to the playoffs no problem.

I don't give Hakeem credit for posting big numbers if the numbers don't produce the appropriate results. Plenry of players can post numbers, but not all numbers have the same calories. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem was a great player, but he can't be compared to Lebron.

[70sFan]

There’s probably a stronger argument for at least 6 than there is for none.

6 is probably the most I could go.
If you think that Hakeem has no case for peaks then we just reached very different conclusions about both players.

Do you really think there is a drastic difference between LeBron's 4th, 5th and 6th best seasons?

So my best James seasons order looks probably like this:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Do I think there is a drastic difference between 4-6 seasons? Probably not, but it is significant - the top 4 is basically flawless while 2014 and 2017 are not.

[Cavsfansince84]

That isn't true at all, something I've discussed before at length. Also prime Lebron showed he could carry garbage teams to the playoffs no problem.

I don't give Hakeem credit for posting big numbers if the numbers don't produce the appropriate results. Plenry of players can post numbers, but not all numbers have the same calories. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem was a great player, but he can't be compared to Lebron.

When people have to resort to calling a guy's playoff numbers empty while he's also one of the best defenders of all time at the center position it's not a good form of argument.

[One_and_Done]

That isn't true at all, something I've discussed before at length. Also prime Lebron showed he could carry garbage teams to the playoffs no problem.

I don't give Hakeem credit for posting big numbers if the numbers don't produce the appropriate results. Plenry of players can post numbers, but not all numbers have the same calories. Don't get me wrong, Hakeem was a great player, but he can't be compared to Lebron.

When people have to resort to calling a guy's playoff numbers empty while he's also one of the best defenders of all time at the center position it's not a good form of argument.

I didn't say empty, I said lower calories than the greatest player of all-time.

[Cavsfansince84]

I didn't say empty, I said lower calories than the greatest player of all-time.

LeBron had some not so great series over the years himself. Seeing as this is a LeBron v peak Hakeem thread though there's really no reason to get bogged down in any of Hakeem's non peak playoffs which as I already said we're mostly good to great anyhow. We can agree to disagree. Life goes on.

[1993Playoffs]

Most prime years. Hakeem vs Robinson is a much closer comparison imo.

[Top10alltime]

6 is probably the most I could go.
If you think that Hakeem has no case for peaks then we just reached very different conclusions about both players.

Do you really think there is a drastic difference between LeBron's 4th, 5th and 6th best seasons?

So my best James seasons order looks probably like this:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Do I think there is a drastic difference between 4-6 seasons? Probably not, but it is significant - the top 4 is basically flawless while 2014 and 2017 are not.

2014 actually has 0 case over 2010 and 2017 Lebron.

[lessthanjake]

Every prime year I guess. So at least 09 to 20, minus 19.

If you put '11 and '15 in, this is what everyone should be thinking of you.

Lebron having a subpar finals in 11 doesn't negate the rest of the season. If Hakeem was in his place they probably don't make the finals to begin with, even though Hakeem was a better fit with Wade and Bosh tbh.

Lol, I really feel like your line of thinking is often just “I think this player was better overall, so I will take essentially any year of his above any year of the other guy.” I don’t think there’s a viable argument for 2011 LeBron over peak Hakeem. The issue with 2011 LeBron wasn’t just the Finals. It was also just a worse year in general. He dipped a lot in box stats in both regular season and playoffs. It just wasn’t as good as other LeBron years in general. You say the Heat wouldn’t have made the Finals with Hakeem, but LeBron was not overly great against the Bulls or Celtics (nor really against the 76ers, but that was not a series the Heat could’ve plausibly lost anyways, so not worth talking about much—if you think peak Hakeem loses that series then we’ve really jumped the shark). He was good in both series, but they definitely weren’t playoff series that other all-time greats in their peak years couldn’t match. Heck, he wasn’t even the Heat’s best player against the Celtics and wasn’t clearly the Heat’s best player against the Bulls.

LeBron is a clearly better player in general than Hakeem. But that really doesn’t mean that every year of his is better than every Hakeem year. LeBron’s 2011 year just wasn’t particularly special by the standards of all-time greats. It may well be better than a Hakeem down year, but it’s just not better than Hakeem’s peak years.

[One_and_Done]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

[Top10alltime]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

Not in 2011 or 2015. Again, people should be calling you a for these takes.

[Cavsfansince84]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

It's not huge at all. If anything, I think you sort of suffer from growing up with LeBron and putting him on a pedestal the same way some MJ fans do with him. On top of a very modernist view of bb in general which just amplifies it.

[One_and_Done]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

Not in 2011 or 2015. Again, people should be calling you a for these takes.

I mean, I've discussed this at length. If you pace adjusted Lebron's 2011 finals he doesn't look so different to 1980 Magic paper, or 82 playoffs Magic, both finals/playoffs that are regarded as overwhelming positive. Lebron was subpar by his own amazing standard, but alot of that is explainable. He was playing on a team that hadn't figured out how to play together yet, with duplicative skillsets, and no shooting or depth. It's a testament to Lebron that they made the finals to begin with.

In 2011 Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson role as a facilitator, in an attempt to make things work, because Wade was incapable of that, and it almost did work because the Heat were very close to getting up 3-0 or 3-1, and if they win the series the narrative is completely different. Instead we would have heard about how Lebron was willing to sacrifice his own shots for the good of the team.

I don't like how I'm supposed to view Lebron's 18/7/7 performance completely negatively, while praising Magic in 1980 for a legendary finals. Guess what, if I adjust Magic's 1980 finals numbers for pace then Magic put up 18/9/8 (rounding up). Basically the same numbers. Yeh, Lebron was less efficient, but he also played a team vastly better than the Sixers who in hindsight they shouldn't have beaten. Lebron is also vastly better on D.

There's too much winning bias here. Lebron was Lebron in 2011, he just got placed in a tough role. I'd honestly blame the coach more than him. His starters in the finals were Wade, Bosh, Joel Anthony, and a washed Mike Bibby; none of whom could shoot the 3 well (and Bosh wasn't even allowed to shoot 3s). Thankfully Spo got religion the next year and started Lebron next to Battier, Wade, Chalmers, and Bosh (with Bosh told to fire away at 3).

[One_and_Done]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

It's not huge at all. If anything, I think you sort of suffer from growing up with LeBron and putting him on a pedestal the same way some MJ fans do with him. On top of a very modernist view of bb in general which just amplifies it.

Not at all. I saw Jordan and Hakeem play too. I just was objective enough to realise they weren't as good as it seemed at the time, and that didn't happen quickly.

[lessthanjake]

Nah, Lebron was just flat out better than Hakeem. A sub-par finals can't change that. There's too much narrative bias about Hakeem. Yes, he's a top 10 player all-time, but the gulf between that and Lebron is still huge. Hakeem was winning titles in a league that was pretty weak compared to 2011.

Not in 2011 or 2015. Again, people should be calling you a for these takes.

I mean, I've discussed this at length. If you pace adjusted Lebron's 2011 finals he doesn't look so different to 1980 Magic paper, or 82 playoffs Magic, both finals/playoffs that are regarded as overwhelming positive. Lebron was subpar by his own amazing standard, but alot of that is explainable. He was playing on a team that hadn't figured out how to play together yet, with duplicative skillsets, and no shooting or depth. It's a testament to Lebron that they made the finals to begin with.

In 2011 Lebron tried to play a Magic Johnson role as a facilitator, in an attempt to make things work, because Wade was incapable of that, and it almost did work because the Heat were very close to getting up 3-0 or 3-1, and if they win the series the narrative is completely different. Instead we would have heard about how Lebron was willing to sacrifice his own shots for the good of the team.

I don't like how I'm supposed to view Lebron's 18/7/7 performance completely negatively, while praising Magic in 1980 for a legendary finals. Guess what, if I adjust Magic's 1980 finals numbers for pace then Magic put up 18/9/8 (rounding up). Basically the same numbers. Yeh, Lebron was less efficient, but he also played a team vastly better than the Sixers who in hindsight they shouldn't have beaten. Lebron is also vastly better on D.

There's too much winning bias here. Lebron was Lebron in 2011, he just got placed in a tough role. I'd honestly blame the coach more than him. His starters in the finals were Wade, Bosh, Joel Anthony, and a washed Mike Bibby; none of whom could shoot the 3 well (and Bosh wasn't even allowed to shoot 3s). Thankfully Spo got religion the next year and started Lebron next to Battier, Wade, Chalmers, and Bosh (with Bosh told to fire away at 3).

So I’ve previously addressed this “he played the Magic Johnson role” argument at length. See below from me on that, which I think thoroughly debunks everything you’re saying. Of course this doesn’t address the fact that analogies to 1980 or 1982 Magic Johnson (which are rookie Magic and Magic when he was making all-NBA second team for the first time) are plainly unconvincing for purposes of this thread, because Magic Johnson in those early years was not as good as peak Hakeem anyways, and you’re putting 2011 LeBron above peak Hakeem.

I think this is a silly argument. Even if we accept for argument’s purposes that LeBron was playing “the Magic Johnson facilitator role,” playing the Magic Johnson role and having 6.8 assists a game and 4.0 turnovers per game is bad! Especially when it is combined with mediocre scoring efficiency (Magic usually combined his playmaking with efficient scoring). You can do a pace adjustment on these numbers, but you’d have to adjust up the turnovers too. There’s not a series from Magic Johnson that is comparably bad.

If you want to say it is similar to a Magic Johnson series, the closest comparison would actually be the 1982 Finals, where Magic put up 8.0 assists per game and 4.3 turnovers per game. Even that series was meaningfully better than LeBron’s 2011 Finals, because not only was that assist-to-turnover ratio meaningfully better but Magic actually scored way more efficiently in that series (against a team with a virtually identical regular season TS% against as the 2011 Mavs) albeit with a little lower pace-adjusted volume. And guess what? Magic got criticized for that 1982 Finals! But yeah, he doesn’t get criticized for it as much as LeBron in 2011. And that’s because he wasn’t actually quite a top-tier superstar yet. That 1982 year was the first time he made an all-NBA team and it was all-NBA second team. He wasn’t at the peak of his powers yet. Meanwhile, LeBron had won two MVPs and was in the middle of his peak years. Peak Magic Johnson playing “the Magic Johnson role” did not have a series that you could in any way meaningfully compare to LeBron’s 2011 Finals.

You might also be able to compare LeBron’s 2011 Finals to Magic’s 1980 Finals if we just cut out the last game Magic played in that series. Without that last game—which is the sole reason he won the Finals MVP and the only reason the series is celebrated—Magic had 9.0 assists a game and 5.0 turnovers per game. His pace-adjusted scoring volume was lower but his opponent-adjusted scoring efficiency was *massively* superior. Overall, Magic still looks a little better IMO. And that’s looking at 20-year-old rookie Magic Johnson and taking an all-time-great performance out, and comparing it to peak LeBron. The fact that LeBron still comes out looking a little worse says it all. You can’t put lipstick on this pig, man.

And that’s not even getting into the fact that this whole “he was trying to play the Magic Johnson facilitator role because Wade couldn't” argument is really silly in the first place, because LeBron had played an entire season and three rounds of the playoffs with Wade and didn’t do that. He didn’t suddenly play differently because of some perceived weakness of Dwyane Wade that he magically only noticed in time for the NBA Finals. He played differently as a result of his own weaknesses being exploited by the Mavs.

[One_and_Done]

And I've disagreed at length.

The rebuttal of 'well, 1980 Magic wasn't as good as peak Hakeem, even were it true, is irrelevant. That's because 1) I only said he played a 'Magic like role', not that he was only as good as rookie Magic, and 2) because he only had one down series like that. Otherwise he was Lebron.

I don't find it sensible to negate the rest of Lebron's incredible season because of 1 series that Hakeem probably wouldn't have made it to in the first place. It's like saying we'd rate Lebron higher that year if he'd been eliminated a round earlier.

[lessthanjake]

And I've disagreed at length.

The rebuttal of 'well, 1980 Magic wasn't as good as peak Hakeem, even were it true, is irrelevant. That's because 1) I only said he played a 'Magic like role', not that he was only as good as rookie Magic, and 2) because he only had one down series like that. Otherwise he was Lebron.

I don't find it sensible to negate the rest of Lebron's incredible season because of 1 series that Hakeem probably wouldn't have made it to in the first place. It's like saying we'd rate Lebron higher that year if he'd been eliminated a round earlier.

But you’re ignoring that LeBron was also just not as good as normal that entire year. You can see that in like any data you might look at. The Finals are definitely the worst part of it, but it’s really not a situation where a guy had a bad playoff series and “Otherwise he was LeBron.” He had a year that was noticeably subpar by his standards, and then capped it off with a genuinely bad Finals.

And, of course, you repeat your assertion that “Hakeem probably wouldn’t have made it to [the Finals] in the first place” without addressing the fact that LeBron didn’t actually do anything particularly special in the prior rounds. The Heat did play genuinely good teams in the Celtics and Bulls and LeBron had solid series’s against those teams, but it definitely wasn’t anything special by the standard of all-time great players. Indeed, LeBron wasn’t even his team’s best player in one of those series, and arguably both. I don’t see any reason why peak Hakeem couldn’t do just as well or better in those series. And that’s not even mentioning that the Heat got through those teams in 5 games, so Hakeem wouldn’t even have to play as well in order to make the Finals.

[One_and_Done]

And I've disagreed at length.

The rebuttal of 'well, 1980 Magic wasn't as good as peak Hakeem, even were it true, is irrelevant. That's because 1) I only said he played a 'Magic like role', not that he was only as good as rookie Magic, and 2) because he only had one down series like that. Otherwise he was Lebron.

I don't find it sensible to negate the rest of Lebron's incredible season because of 1 series that Hakeem probably wouldn't have made it to in the first place. It's like saying we'd rate Lebron higher that year if he'd been eliminated a round earlier.

But you’re ignoring that LeBron was also just not as good as normal that entire year. You can see that in like any data you might look at. The Finals are definitely the worst part of it, but it’s really not a situation where a guy had a bad playoff series and “Otherwise he was LeBron.” He had a year that was noticeably subpar by his standards, and then capped it off with a genuinely bad Finals.

His RS per 100 numbers and TS% look similar to the following year. His playoffs TS% is similar, and aside from his PS scoring being down he looks much the same there too. His PS per100 scoring dropping was in large part a product of the finals and how he was used. He was trying to let Wade be himself, so they could paper over what turned out to be quite a poor fit. It mostly worked, but by the finals it got exposed. The next year Spo told Lebron to be the alpha on offense and had Wade take a back-seat while he reconfigured the team around Lebron and a more modern structure.

I doubt I will care about the advanced numbers you think went down in 2011.