How many Lebron years over Peak Hakeem?

[ShotCreator]

09 and 10 are the only years I’m confident in.

12 and 13 are on the cusp but I’m not truly sure like the other two. 2012 is the stronger of the two. Far better motor.

16 and 17 are about peak Hakeem level itself. 17 had his second best playoff run ever. But a little weaker defensively than past years, imo. Every other season is out of the question.

I find it interesting LeBron’s best seasons/eras come in twos. 18 LeBron was freakish offensively but was a one-way player. Hard sell against a 93 Hakeem.


At least two, at most four. I lean toward just two.

With 12, 13, 16, and 17 being in the peak Hakeem range.

[lessthanjake]

And I've disagreed at length.

The rebuttal of 'well, 1980 Magic wasn't as good as peak Hakeem, even were it true, is irrelevant. That's because 1) I only said he played a 'Magic like role', not that he was only as good as rookie Magic, and 2) because he only had one down series like that. Otherwise he was Lebron.

I don't find it sensible to negate the rest of Lebron's incredible season because of 1 series that Hakeem probably wouldn't have made it to in the first place. It's like saying we'd rate Lebron higher that year if he'd been eliminated a round earlier.

But you’re ignoring that LeBron was also just not as good as normal that entire year. You can see that in like any data you might look at. The Finals are definitely the worst part of it, but it’s really not a situation where a guy had a bad playoff series and “Otherwise he was LeBron.” He had a year that was noticeably subpar by his standards, and then capped it off with a genuinely bad Finals.

His RS per 100 numbers and TS% look similar to the following year. His playoffs TS% is similar, and aside from his PS scoring being down he looks much the same there too. His PS per100 scoring dropping was in large part a product of the finals and how he was used. He was trying to let Wade be himself, so they could paper over what turned out to be quite a poor fit. It mostly worked, but by the finals it got exposed. The next year Spo told Lebron to be the alpha on offense and had Wade take a back-seat while he reconfigured the team around Lebron and a more modern structure.

I doubt I will care about the advanced numbers you think went down in 2011.

His RS per 100 numbers and playoff numbers actually don’t look super similar to the following year, particularly when we account for the fact that 2012 was a season in which the league as a whole scored significantly less. Offensive efficiency was almost 3 points higher in 2011 than in 2012 (which was not an anomaly—the years prior to 2011 had had similar efficiency to 2011, while the years after 2012 had similar efficiency to 2012), and the same was true in the playoffs. The fact that his efficiency and his numbers per 100 possessions mostly were a bit worse in a higher-scoring league environment reflects him being significantly less good and is why he does notably worse in the advanced numbers that you preemptively reject in favor of making vague and uncontextualized statements about slashlines.

[One_and_Done]

Even if we all agreed Lebron was 'a bit worse' in 2011, he's so far ahead of Hakeem that a slightly worse Lebron is still well ahead of Hakeem.

[lessthanjake]

Even if we all agreed Lebron was 'a bit worse' in 2011, he's so far ahead of Hakeem that a slightly worse Lebron is still well ahead of Hakeem.

Having raw numbers that are a bit worse while you are in a higher-scoring league environment translates to being more than a bit worse.

[One_and_Done]

We disagree, on both the conclusions and methodology. For example, I don't really care if league scoring was slightly up or down between 2011 and 2012. It doesn't have to be indicative of anything.

[70sFan]

Do you really think there is a drastic difference between LeBron's 4th, 5th and 6th best seasons?

So my best James seasons order looks probably like this:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Do I think there is a drastic difference between 4-6 seasons? Probably not, but it is significant - the top 4 is basically flawless while 2014 and 2017 are not.

2014 actually has 0 case over 2010 and 2017 Lebron.

OK, you've convinced me.

[iggymcfrack]

I'd say 2009 and 2016. I know a lot of people go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs for 2013, but I don't see it. Everybody remembers Game 7 of the Finals, but there were some stinkers on the way. First 3 games against the Spurs before he got the jumper going, LeBron averaged 16.2 PPG on 39% from the field and 23% from 3.

[Owly]

I'd say 2009 and 2016. I know a lot of people go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs for 2013, but I don't see it. Everybody remembers Game 7 of the Finals, but there were some stinkers on the way. First 3 games against the Spurs before he got the jumper going, LeBron averaged 16.2 PPG on 39% from the field and 23% from 3.

Mileage can vary etc

From memory of skimming, I don't recall many offering up which Hakeem year they take to allow for a like-for-like comparison.

Offering up '93 to give him his best playoff boxscore, even though ... as some will value much more than me ... it doesn't end with a ring ...

Just one measure on offer ... mileage may vary ... because the numbers above come in concert with his other boxscore offerings ... LeBron averages 5.9 BPM across those 3 games (9.9, 9.6, -2.2 - notably dropped by the one game into the negative)

I don't know but this patch isolated as "stinkers" is, by that measure, mildly worse than Olajuwon plays across his elimination series (versus Seattle, 7.0 - with three games below LeBron's average "stinker" level (3.5, 4.0, 1.3) - one around it (6.4) - and three above (9.8, 10.1, 13.1). All his '94 individual series do have better averages if that's the preferred year (perhaps in part due to none of them being against Seattle) - his best, the 9.9 WCF versus Utah, is as good as LeBron's best "stinker".

This is just one number, box aggregates may vary, there's important stuff that isn't counted in the boxscore...

"Stinker" just seems awfully strong for a couple of these games.

[lessthanjake]

We disagree, on both the conclusions and methodology. For example, I don't really care if league scoring was slightly up or down between 2011 and 2012. It doesn't have to be indicative of anything.

I’d say it’s definitely indicative of the fact that the same numbers in 2011 wouldn’t be as good relative to the rest of the league as they would be in 2012. And having *lower* raw numbers in 2011 compared to 2012 would definitely be significantly less good relative to the rest of the league. Doing significantly less well relative to the league in one season compared to a nearby season is indicative of not being as good that year.

Honestly, LeBron just wasn’t particularly special in 2011. The vast majority of players would still love to have his 2011 year, but when talking about seasons from all-time greats, it just wasn’t special at all. The peak years from guys a tier or two below LeBron are definitely better than LeBron’s 2011. And you’re really off on an island in thinking otherwise. Honestly, I kind of doubt even LeBron James himself would think you’re right about this.

[The Explorer]

Lebron wasn't even as good as Derrick Rose or Dwight Howard in 2011, let alone peak Hakeem Olajuwon.

[ShotCreator]

Even if we all agreed Lebron was 'a bit worse' in 2011, he's so far ahead of Hakeem that a slightly worse Lebron is still well ahead of Hakeem.

LeBron was more than a bit worse in the 2011 playoffs, and especially Finals.

LeBron was Trae Young bad on defense in the Finals, and legitimately a terrible player for the Heat on the highest minutes in the series.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/167Qb4K88ownHhElzDjJd5WvVWwHTmPa90wUJkwANm8Q/edit?gid=1166660805#gid=1166660805

[falcolombardi]

I just saw someone compare lebron defense to trae young, that is a new one to add to a list

[1993Playoffs]

Hakeem gets a lot of passes imo. I know this is about peak

but it’s not LeBron/MJ fault they were much better in their 20s than Hakeem

[falcolombardi]

Hakeem gets a lot of passes imo. I know this is about peak

but it’s not LeBron/MJ fault they were much better in their 20s than Hakeem

Is also kind of hard to evaluate 20's hakeem because he was in weaker teams

When he had good teammates sophomore hakeem took the rockets to upset the defending champion lakers and take 2 games of 86 boston, then the team crumbled around him and the problems of hakeem with management plagued houston for the next 5 years

[ShotCreator]

I just saw someone compare lebron defense to trae young, that is a new one to add to a list

Would this be a list of things you can't talk about intelligently? It's easy to have an opinion on someone elses opinion. How about you tell me exactly how good LeBron James defense was in the 2011 finals.

[TK Smart]

09,10,12,13,14,16,17,18,20

[70sFan]

Hakeem gets a lot of passes imo. I know this is about peak

but it’s not LeBron/MJ fault they were much better in their 20s than Hakeem

I fail to see why Jordan should be called "much better" in 1985-88 period.

[1993Playoffs]

Hakeem gets a lot of passes imo. I know this is about peak

but it’s not LeBron/MJ fault they were much better in their 20s than Hakeem

Is also kind of hard to evaluate 20's hakeem because he was in weaker teams

When he had good teammates sophomore hakeem took the rockets to upset the defending champion lakers and take 2 games of 86 boston, then the team crumbled around him and the problems of hakeem with management plagued houston for the next 5 years

At work sorry for the late reply guys but since this
Thread is about LeBron we know 2009 happened and we have proof of concept that he can elevate non-elite rosters to higher levels than Hakeem with more impressive regular season results at least

Not hating on hakeem he was amazing but there is a reason LeBron is in the goat tier. I don’t really see people put Hakeem quite that high.

[therealbig3]

I always struggle comparing great bigs to great wings. But in general, LeBron at his best is one of the best wing defenders of all time, while being in conversation as the best offensive player of all time, and that to me gives him the edge over Hakeem.

2009, 2010, 2012-2014, 2016-2018 are all seasons I’d take over Hakeem’s best. So 8 for me.

I think he was overall just a worse player in 2011 and 2015 for various reasons that make them not as good as peak Hakeem. I think 2020 looks like a really strong season but it was also elevated because of load management and Anthony Davis, as well as a bubble playoffs that did give an older player like LeBron some help. Still a great season, but not at the level of his other years.

[Cavsfansince84]

At work sorry for the late reply guys but since this
Thread is about LeBron we know 2009 happened and we have proof of concept that he can elevate non-elite rosters to higher levels than Hakeem with more impressive regular season results at least

Not hating on hakeem he was amazing but there is a reason LeBron is in the goat tier. I don’t really see people put Hakeem quite that high.

Ya but this thread is about peak Hakeem, who did actually not only elevate a non elite roster to contending but actually won a ring and then followed it up with another ring with a cast that was maybe a bit better the following season(while knocking off a bunch of 55+ win teams without hca in any series).