Crazy Take-Kidd over Magic

[Doctor MJ]

I think the question is whether you're talking about effective passing ability or a more pure notion of passing ability.

Being shorter and not great at shooting makes you a less effective passer, but it may not be because your brain is less talented at the things that actually go into passing.

So then I'd say we can tell that in practice Kidd isn't having top tier passing effects for his team, but it may not be because his passing talents themselves aren't top tier.

I think elite passing and scoring ability goes hand in hand.

I think fans in general talk about passing abilities as "fancy" passing.

So someone like Kidd can be deemed a better passing than Nash when Nash is more effective and has led better offenses because his passing is more effective.

But you can have all the passing skills in the world but if you can't get your shot off and not be a threat to score, you will never be able to show it off except in obvious passing situations.

You can think of someone like Kyle Anderson, who in college, was good playmaker but in the league is a connective passer because he can't score.

Sounds like we're not fundamentally disagreeing then. Other abilities give you more and better passing opportunities.

But with that said, it's not like a list of greatest passers would just be a list of guys with the greatest other talents. In theory the guys seen as great passers should all be 7 feet tall because height helps with visibility, but mostly NBA 7 footers aren't impressive passers compared to the small players.

[tsherkin]

Likely would've won titles with the Lakers though, agree with that.

Doubt that. Magic scored a fair bit, and generally well, all 5 times... and they needed it. And his scoring only became more important as their dynasty advanced.

EDIT: Like, there's a semi-reasonable chance they don't even REACH the Finals with Kidd replacing Magic.

[penbeast0]

I will never understand how people can believe that ineffective scorers can be better passers than effective scorers.

Jason Kidd was a decent half court player at best that did not captain above average offenses.

His best attribute was being a PG that gave you wing level defense. Having him was like having an extra forward.

But his overall offensive profile wasn't good at all. His inability to take his man in isolation and only being able to operate in set pieces limits his passing and playmaking.

What makes Nash/Magic/Luka/Jokic devasting passers is that they can get whatever they want on offense.

The Rondo/Jason Kidd/Draymond Green type of passers cannot make up this with vision.

By ineffective, do you mean inefficient, like an Allen Iverson who could get what he wanted on offense but who then usually missed the shot (though he did draw fouls) but who had tremendous gravity because everyone knew he was usually going to shoot. Or, do you mean not high volume, like Steve Nash or John Stockton who were never 20 ppg scorers but who were an efficient scorers who you couldn't leave open?

[eminence]

Likely would've won titles with the Lakers though, agree with that.

Doubt that. Magic scored a fair bit, and generally well, all 5 times... and they needed it. And his scoring only became more important as their dynasty advanced.

EDIT: Like, there's a semi-reasonable chance they don't even REACH the Finals with Kidd replacing Magic.

Are they as good as with Magic, certainly not. But Shelvin Mack could've taken the '87 Lakers to the Finals their opposition was so bad (37 win/-1.1 SRS, 42 win/-2.5 SRS, 39 win/+0.1 SRS). '02 Kidd certainly would've got the job done.

And it's not like Jason Kidd was physically incapable of putting the ball through the basket. He had a pair of ~20 pts/g Finals run of his own with a worst cast than the '87 Lakers. Through tougher (still garbage) competition: 42 win/-0.1 SRS, 44 win/+0.6 SRS, 49 win/+1.8 SRS.

Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Todd MacCulloch

Byron Scott
James Worthy
AC Green
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[eminence]

Funnily enough, Kidd has more Finals runs leading his team in scoring ('02/'03) than Magic does ('91 only).

[threethehardway]

I will never understand how people can believe that ineffective scorers can be better passers than effective scorers.

Jason Kidd was a decent half court player at best that did not captain above average offenses.

His best attribute was being a PG that gave you wing level defense. Having him was like having an extra forward.

But his overall offensive profile wasn't good at all. His inability to take his man in isolation and only being able to operate in set pieces limits his passing and playmaking.

What makes Nash/Magic/Luka/Jokic devasting passers is that they can get whatever they want on offense.

The Rondo/Jason Kidd/Draymond Green type of passers cannot make up this with vision.

By ineffective, do you mean inefficient, like an Allen Iverson who could get what he wanted on offense but who then usually missed the shot (though he did draw fouls) but who had tremendous gravity because everyone knew he was usually going to shoot. Or, do you mean not high volume, like Steve Nash or John Stockton who were never 20 ppg scorers but who were an efficient scorers who you couldn't leave open?

I mean ineffective in that the defense doesn't recognize the player as an offensive threat due to lack of scoring talent.

I wouldn't call someone like Allen Iverson or Trae Young an ineffective scorer given how they are deployed. They are surrounded by non-ball handlers and non-shooters so they are the best option to score despite their scoring limitations due to size. They have a scoring attack that demands them to be doubled or tripled team, which creates opportunities for high leverage plays.


They are basically inefficiency sponges so their teammates can do what they do best which is score off of cuts, putbacks and open shots generated by their attack.


Jason Kidd is like a checkdown quarterback that every quarter will make a big chunk play. His value is in the fact that he doesn't put the defense in a bad position.

Where as, a Trae Young is like a big armed, small, scrambling quarterback that will take risks and chuck the ball 60 yards off a broken play. He's the pressuring the defense to defense.

This isn't to say that Jason Kidd is a bad passer or a bad playmaker, but I think people just look at his raw assist numbers and his flashy passes in transition, thus believe he was this ATG playmaker - when his main value was basically being Draymond Green at the PG position.

Tough, gritty, defensive leader that could run your offense well enough and push the pace. Jason Kidd has great passing vision but he can't capitalize on every opportunity that presents itself because he can't make the defense react to his scoring threat.

If you look at the tape and see the quality of Jason Kidd's assists vs. Trae or Nash or Luka, his raw assist numbers is a function of set plays or semi-transition, not Kidd's scoring aggression. They are Rondo assists and Lonzo assists. It's not getting into the teeth of a defense and causing reactions, like a Nash assist.

For a modern example, compare the assists of Luka vs. Haliburton. Haliburton isn't probing for an assist or putting himself in danger for an assist, he's seeing a play develop, whether in semi-transition or a set play, and making it happen. Where as Luka is getting in trouble, blending his scoring aggression and feeling out an opportunity for an assist.

[bkkrh]

Kidd is absolutely one of the most underrated players of all-time. Not a scoring point and many just can't get past that. His teams did nothing but win and win huge after acquiring him after being dreadful before him--and as I always have to point out he got traded for win now talent every time he changed teams and with all-star level players going out. But only one title and he doesn't get much credit for that one.

But Magic was the better player.

I think that sums it up pretty well. I also see Kidd as super underrated and as you mentioned I can´t think of any player that has a better track record of turning bad teams into 50+ win teams over night. You can definitely make the argument that he is the 3rd best Point Guard of all time behind Magic and Steph and personally I would take him over Stockton, Payton & Nash. But I think a lot of people forget that there was a legit GOAT discussion between Magic and Bird until the late 80s, when MJ took over.

[tsherkin]

Are they as good as with Magic, certainly not. But Shelvin Mack could've taken the '87 Lakers to the Finals their opposition was so bad (37 win/-1.1 SRS, 42 win/-2.5 SRS, 39 win/+0.1 SRS). '02 Kidd certainly would've got the job done.

And it's not like Jason Kidd was physically incapable of putting the ball through the basket. He had a pair of ~20 pts/g Finals run of his own with a worst cast than the '87 Lakers. Through tougher (still garbage) competition: 42 win/-0.1 SRS, 44 win/+0.6 SRS, 49 win/+1.8 SRS.

Raw scoring volume is very different from good scoring. When he was posting those averages you mentioned, he posted 19.6 and 20.1 ppg at 95 and 99 TS+ during those postseason runs. The East was at least as weak in the early 2000s as the West was in the 80s, so that's not really a point of comparison which does you any favors here.

Meantime, the idea that Shelvin Mack could have taken them to the Finals is ludicrous hyperbole.

The year before Magic's rookie season, LA didn't make it out of the second round. And that was WITH 15/12 out of Norm Nixon... on a Kidd-like 49% TS.

I think you're heavily underestimated the yawning chasm of scoring efficacy between these two guys. Sure, there's a defensive gap which helps even things out a little, but offensively? Not even close, and point guard D wasn't really what got in the way of LA advancing in that postseason. Kidd likely wouldn't have done anything with the 80s Lakers.

[Mr Ringer]

I just think you're making the gap bigger on Kidd's advantages and smaller on magic's

The scoring margin is huge, if he wanted Magic could have made it even bigger.
I believe magic is still a better passer and playmaker.
Kidd's shooting advantage is kinda theoretical, Magic could very well become a good shooter if played in an era that demanded it (though I don't think he would've been better)

[Warspite]

I don't see how Kidd and Nixon work together. Kidd is a run and gun type PG and I dont think he is going to mesh well with KAJ and his half court post style.

How well does Jason Kidd play C when KAJ goes down in game 5? Did he ever score 40pts in a game?

If you don't think that Magic Johnson is the GOAT passer then you need to watch more tape.

Magic passing is like Barry Sanders running the football. Its not that they are the most eff or productive. Its that they did things you have never seen before or since. Every time they touched the ball was the possibility that this next possession was going to be the greatest play you have ever seen.

[penbeast0]

I just think you're making the gap bigger on Kidd's advantages and smaller on magic's

The scoring margin is huge, if he wanted Magic could have made it even bigger.
I believe magic is still a better passer and playmaker.
Kidd's shooting advantage is kinda theoretical, Magic could very well become a good shooter if played in an era that demanded it (though I don't think he would've been better)

Kidd's shooting advantage isn't kinda theoretical, it's non-existent.

Kidd was a below league average efficiency shooter 16 of his 19 years in the league and barely above average 2 of the 3 he wasn't below average. Basically 2010 as a 36 year old 4th option was his only efficient season where he was shooting a lot of open set 3's off Dirk's gravity. Magic's scoring efficiency was consistently higher than league average by strong margins every year of his career. He had a better midrange, was better off the dribble, finished better, was better at catch and shoot, just plain better at shooting at almost every facet of the game. Kidd's 3 point percentage was higher than Magic's but that's his only advantage and I would guess a lot of that is just the era as he played in.

[migya]

Not enough is said among nba discussion and PGs about Kidd's raising of his teams. He was not the big scorer everyone seems to like but he was what a successful team needs as a PG and leader. Interesting if his on/off is top 20 alltime for players with over ten years and over 30mins a game.

[penbeast0]

Read the "greatest defensive PG" threads. Kidd is the GOAT PG at raising team Drtg. His offensive impact numbers are relatively unimpressive, but his switchability and his defensive rebounding are amazing.

[og15]

I don't see how Kidd and Nixon work together. Kidd is a run and gun type PG and I dont think he is going to mesh well with KAJ and his half court post style.

How well does Jason Kidd play C when KAJ goes down in game 5? Did he ever score 40pts in a game?

If you don't think that Magic Johnson is the GOAT passer then you need to watch more tape.

Magic passing is like Barry Sanders running the football. Its not that they are the most eff or productive. Its that they did things you have never seen before or since. Every time they touched the ball was the possibility that this next possession was going to be the greatest play you have ever seen.

Magic was also a run and gun PG, but he was just also a half court PG.

Kareem and Kidd would have no issue, Kidd wasn't individually very effective in the half court, but he didn't get in his teammates way in the half court.

He played very well with Vince, Dirk, etc, there's no reason he would not mesh well with Kareems post style. No team is going to be in transition ever possession, most possessions will still end up in half court and Kidd is definitely not going to be fighting him for shots, and he's great at feeding the post.

What would be the issue with Kidd and Norm? Kidd also has the advantage that he can play up a position on defense, and he should be able to work quite well with another guard.

The issue here isn't all those things, the issue here is that Kidd is not that close to Magic, and the whole idea of a shooting advantage is a very limited (which a lot of fans do), let's compare their 3PT% stuff. Magic is a superior inside the arc jumpshooter, superior at the FT line, and with the regular 3PT line (remember he had the short line for first 3 seasons) Kidd was at 32.6% 3PT from 24-30, and it was post prime Kidd that was the better 3PT shooter, 36.9% 3PT from 31-39. One can argue whether 04-05 and 05-06 were still his prime.

Not enough is said among nba discussion and PGs about Kidd's raising of his teams. He was not the big scorer everyone seems to like but he was what a successful team needs as a PG and leader. Interesting if his on/off is top 20 alltime for players with over ten years and over 30mins a game.

I think most people in the know acknowledge that Kidd's ability to raise a defense as a PG is great. I think some people do also assume that his team raising ability is more on the offensive side than it actually is, because of leadership and passing, but his offensive raising ability is not anything impressive for a star. Put it like this, if Kidd was an average defensive point guard, he would not be an All Time great.

His defense is super impressive though, even when he was older, and of course he is a very good passer, but without that defense, his impact would have been far tougher to have.

[Owly]

Not enough is said among nba discussion and PGs about Kidd's raising of his teams. He was not the big scorer everyone seems to like but he was what a successful team needs as a PG and leader. Interesting if his on/off is top 20 alltime for players with over ten years and over 30mins a game.

If we're talking strictly on court maybe.

I don't think Magic is impeccable here either.

But Kidd especially ... (some from top of head - some looked up) some are hearsay, rumor ... we never no everything that went on on the inside ...

a) going into the draft ...
- going to trial for participation in a hit and run
- accused of assaulting a woman at a party
- court ordered child support payments in paternity suit
- some ... indirect assertions of involvement of Kidd and his father being somewhat involved in his first college coach's ouster

b) at the end in Dallas ...
- supposedly not on speaking terms with Jimmy Jackson
- demanded he or Jackson be traded
- talking about a baseball career
- continued low-level agitation/insubordination

c) at the end in Phoenix ...
- his domestic violence rap became embarrassing to the franchise

d) at points in NJ
- alleged to have been key to Byron Scott's ouster (people start looking at stuff with Skiles in Phoenix too - though the Secret Base on Kidd seems to suggest there's only really evidence of a Skiles "Beef" after Kidd's departure) - some digs in 2003, then maybe an ultimatum
- issued trade demand, 2004
- some suggested he was "on strike" missing a game before the trade to Dallas (seeking either trade or contract extension)

e) in general further off-court issues
- 2007 divorce saw airing of more detailed allegations
- 2012 driving while intoxicated

f) later, court-adjacent errors of judgement / beefing
- "bump me" ... embarrassment
- recruiting then rapidly functionally demoting Frank and apparently banning him from attending practices

At the margins that RAPM might be lower on his O, that he didn't tend to be on great teams or great offenses ... circumstantial and better with him on court and '99 Suns for instance were a good offense (and much more so with him on) you could at the margins argue how much he's what a successful team needs as a leader in that regard (your playoff tilt, evaluation of the Nets, may vary ... and I don't love the "offenses not great" argument because if the net impact is there I don't care how) or at least at the margins how proven he is in such a role.

[Warspite]

I don't see how Kidd and Nixon work together. Kidd is a run and gun type PG and I dont think he is going to mesh well with KAJ and his half court post style.

How well does Jason Kidd play C when KAJ goes down in game 5? Did he ever score 40pts in a game?

If you don't think that Magic Johnson is the GOAT passer then you need to watch more tape.

Magic passing is like Barry Sanders running the football. Its not that they are the most eff or productive. Its that they did things you have never seen before or since. Every time they touched the ball was the possibility that this next possession was going to be the greatest play you have ever seen.

Magic was also a run and gun PG, but he was just also a half court PG.

Kareem and Kidd would have no issue, Kidd wasn't individually very effective in the half court, but he didn't get in his teammates way in the half court.

He played very well with Vince, Dirk, etc, there's no reason he would not mesh well with Kareems post style. No team is going to be in transition ever possession, most possessions will still end up in half court and Kidd is definitely not going to be fighting him for shots, and he's great at feeding the post.

What would be the issue with Kidd and Norm? Kidd also has the advantage that he can play up a position on defense, and he should be able to work quite well with another guard.

The issue here isn't all those things, the issue here is that Kidd is not that close to Magic, and the whole idea of a shooting advantage is a very limited (which a lot of fans do), let's compare their 3PT% stuff. Magic is a superior inside the arc jumpshooter, superior at the FT line, and with the regular 3PT line (remember he had the short line for first 3 seasons) Kidd was at 32.6% 3PT from 24-30, and it was post prime Kidd that was the better 3PT shooter, 36.9% 3PT from 31-39. One can argue whether 04-05 and 05-06 were still his prime.

Not enough is said among nba discussion and PGs about Kidd's raising of his teams. He was not the big scorer everyone seems to like but he was what a successful team needs as a PG and leader. Interesting if his on/off is top 20 alltime for players with over ten years and over 30mins a game.

I think most people in the know acknowledge that Kidd's ability to raise a defense as a PG is great. I think some people do also assume that his team raising ability is more on the offensive side than it actually is, because of leadership and passing, but his offensive raising ability is not anything impressive for a star. Put it like this, if Kidd was an average defensive point guard, he would not be an All Time great.

His defense is super impressive though, even when he was older, and of course he is a very good passer, but without that defense, his impact would have been far tougher to have.

My point is that Magic can play all 5 positions on offense. He can play with another ball dominate PG and he can play with a low post scorer like KAJ. Kidd has no successful experience playing off the ball or playing multiple positions. He played some PF for the Suns, and it failed. He just couldn't guard bigs in the post.

[Texas Chuck]

[

If you look at the tape and see the quality of Jason Kidd's assists vs. Trae or Nash or Luka, his raw assist numbers is a function of set plays or semi-transition, not Kidd's scoring aggression. They are Rondo assists and Lonzo assists. It's not getting into the teeth of a defense and causing reactions, like a Nash assist.

This is just fundamentally false. I think you raise some valid points regarding his lack of threat as a scorer limiting what he can do, but Kidd was not just throwing the ball to Shaq or Karl Malone and collecting assists. And he's probably the best extra pass guy in NBA history which isn't as fun a full length bounce pass or a lob to STAT, but really really effective and while it seems simple, not just anyone was doing it at Kidd's level.

Kidd has extraordinary vision and one of the highest IQ players of all-time. He was regularly finding passes nobody else was finding. He just was Tom Brady like or Greg Maddux like. He put the ball exactly where it needed to be time and again and he didn't feel the need to put Luka or Magic flair on it just to do it.

[threethehardway]

This is just fundamentally false. I think you raise some valid points regarding his lack of threat as a scorer limiting what he can do, but Kidd was not just throwing the ball to Shaq or Karl Malone and collecting assists. And he's probably the best extra pass guy in NBA history which isn't as fun a full length bounce pass or a lob to STAT, but really really effective and while it seems simple, not just anyone was doing it at Kidd's level.

Kidd has extraordinary vision and one of the highest IQ players of all-time. He was regularly finding passes nobody else was finding. He just was Tom Brady like or Greg Maddux like. He put the ball exactly where it needed to be time and again and he didn't feel the need to put Luka or Magic flair on it just to do it.

No. I am saying that Kidd could not manipulate defenses like a Luka or a Nash and get into the teeth of a defense, thus, he can't create opportunities the same way Luka or a Nash.

Lonzo has great vision too, doesn't mean he isn't limited by his own lack scoring aggression.

Rondo also had great vision but couldn't threatened the defense on a consistent basis.

Lonzo's assists are full-court through ahead passes that are a product of great anticipation.

Rondo's assists are the product of running an offense and play calling.

Point is Jason Kidd can't make the passes that Nash and Luka make but it doesn't mean he is lesser.

[penbeast0]

This is just fundamentally false. I think you raise some valid points regarding his lack of threat as a scorer limiting what he can do, but Kidd was not just throwing the ball to Shaq or Karl Malone and collecting assists. And he's probably the best extra pass guy in NBA history which isn't as fun a full length bounce pass or a lob to STAT, but really really effective and while it seems simple, not just anyone was doing it at Kidd's level.

Kidd has extraordinary vision and one of the highest IQ players of all-time. He was regularly finding passes nobody else was finding. He just was Tom Brady like or Greg Maddux like. He put the ball exactly where it needed to be time and again and he didn't feel the need to put Luka or Magic flair on it just to do it.

No. I am saying that Kidd could not manipulate defenses like a Luka or a Nash and get into the teeth of a defense, thus, he can't create opportunities the same way Luka or a Nash.

Lonzo has great vision too, doesn't mean he isn't limited by his own lack scoring aggression.

Rondo also had great vision but couldn't threatened the defense on a consistent basis.

Lonzo's assists are full-court through ahead passes that are a product of great anticipation.

Rondo's assists are the product of running an offense and play calling.

Point is Jason Kidd can't make the passes that Nash and Luka make but it doesn't mean he is lesser.

If he can't do some positive things that the others can, it DOES mean he is lesser (at creating opportunities) unless there is some area of this skillset that he is better at than Nash or Doncic. What did Kidd do in terms of creating opportunities that is better than what Nash could do?

[Texas Chuck]

Nobody is saying Kidd is as good an offensive player as Nash or Magic. Or even remotely close. Of course they are better overall playmakers.

The argument was about whether or not his assists are just system related which could not be more false. This idea that you have to be Steve Nash or Magic Johnson or you are just getting assists by following a set play is silly and reductive.

Go watch some Kidd film. And watch a lot of it. I know I didn't fully appreciate him until he was a Mav and I saw him every night. I was like oh this is why the team traded Harris and multiple firsts for him at this point in his career. There are levels and Kidd's is so high.