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2025-2026: Around the League

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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#961 » by MasterGMer » Tue Oct 14, 2025 7:33 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Kent wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Just when you think League can't be any more pathetic than it is, Bucks sign Alex Antetokumpo. Guy who failed at Adriatic's second tear league. League where players who make €1000 a month play.


It's silly, no doubt about it.

But if you're a fan of the Bucks, you want your GM to do anything and everything they can to keep their star player when he's looking around.

I think my biggest issue, and maybe yours too, is the depth at which front offices have to go now.

Seems like there's a line you can start to cross. At some point, you want to be able to say, "If you don't like it here anymore, keep things quiet so we can find an un-compromised trade."

It's like a personal relationship. At what point do you say, "This is who I am, this is what I offer, and if it's not a match, let's get real about it so we can move on and both be happy."


Bold part is so true, and that's my pov as well.

It's abusive personal relationship where pro team acts like abused wife, begging on her knees all the time for husband to stay, bribing him with cheap offers. And team should never, at this level beg anybody. Pride and integrity are things A level teams should always keep.

Thing is, if guy wants to leave, he should leave. Because that team even with Giannis is irrelevant. But because of his clear pressure & power plays , but with very low intelligence involved, he plays major role in own unhappiness and continues to hurt Bucks future, that will end up being future without anyway.

This level of nepotism is unheard of in pro sports at this level. He blackmailed Greece and Bucks into signing their unskilled, untalented bum brothers on pro contracts, with limited amount of roster spots, to be paid serious money.

I can't stress hard enough how incompetent Alex Antetokumpo is to be pro player. Anywhere. Let alone in nba.

This is very same player that:
- went undrafted
- got fired in Spain because he sucked
- got cut by G league team because he sucked
- went to play in second division Adriatic league, where, as i said on GB, players play for €800 a month ($930 ) and still sucked, but got pro contract from Greek's PAOK as PR move.
- went to A division in Greece where he was worst player on mediocre PAOK team
- as award for being worst player, he signed with another A tear Greek team, Aris, where he continued to be worst player in entire league

And as award for being 100% incapable of playing basketball at any serious or semi serious level, he is now in nba.



With two separated contracts with Bucks, that only happened because of Giannis , nepotism & his powerplays, Bucks paid Alex $1,1M few years back, and now will pay him additional $800- ish K.
Alex Ant in his previous teams in Greece, probably had salary around $3000-4000 a month and was still overpaid because he had no business playing that league.


This multi layers of nepotism that NBA now has, involving two out of top 5 best players eventually hurt already shaken integrity of entire league. It sends message that players with power now hold all the power over teams and blackmail them into playing their skilless kids, brothers...
Eventually, you run into Kawhi Leonard- Aspiration- like situation, where whole things smells like nothing but sideways angles for teams to pay their superstars extra money.


I agree. If Giannis is unhappy, he should ask for a trade. There is no perfect decision, one way or another, someone or something comes as a consequence. Giannis wants to be a good guy with loyalty and that is what he wants him image perceived. But he should also know that if he wants to win a second or third championship, it is not going to be with Milwaukee Bucks and that is just common sense. If his mind is set on winning, he should absolutely ask for a trade.

Also regarding nepotism, that is happening in the NBA. But there is a line of pure nepotism or something that actually works. Yes, Giannis is the franchise player and franchise wants to entice him to stay. That is actually within the scope how things work. But does it work or not? It is a separate issue.

That happens in business world too. The fine line of pure nepotism and something that works is very clear. Or another word, you can hire someone because of your relation, but does it work or not actually define it nepotism or not.
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#962 » by pepe1991 » Tue Oct 14, 2025 9:16 am

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Kent wrote:
It's silly, no doubt about it.

But if you're a fan of the Bucks, you want your GM to do anything and everything they can to keep their star player when he's looking around.

I think my biggest issue, and maybe yours too, is the depth at which front offices have to go now.

Seems like there's a line you can start to cross. At some point, you want to be able to say, "If you don't like it here anymore, keep things quiet so we can find an un-compromised trade."

It's like a personal relationship. At what point do you say, "This is who I am, this is what I offer, and if it's not a match, let's get real about it so we can move on and both be happy."


Bold part is so true, and that's my pov as well.

It's abusive personal relationship where pro team acts like abused wife, begging on her knees all the time for husband to stay, bribing him with cheap offers. And team should never, at this level beg anybody. Pride and integrity are things A level teams should always keep.

Thing is, if guy wants to leave, he should leave. Because that team even with Giannis is irrelevant. But because of his clear pressure & power plays , but with very low intelligence involved, he plays major role in own unhappiness and continues to hurt Bucks future, that will end up being future without anyway.

This level of nepotism is unheard of in pro sports at this level. He blackmailed Greece and Bucks into signing their unskilled, untalented bum brothers on pro contracts, with limited amount of roster spots, to be paid serious money.

I can't stress hard enough how incompetent Alex Antetokumpo is to be pro player. Anywhere. Let alone in nba.

This is very same player that:
- went undrafted
- got fired in Spain because he sucked
- got cut by G league team because he sucked
- went to play in second division Adriatic league, where, as i said on GB, players play for €800 a month ($930 ) and still sucked, but got pro contract from Greek's PAOK as PR move.
- went to A division in Greece where he was worst player on mediocre PAOK team
- as award for being worst player, he signed with another A tear Greek team, Aris, where he continued to be worst player in entire league

And as award for being 100% incapable of playing basketball at any serious or semi serious level, he is now in nba.



With two separated contracts with Bucks, that only happened because of Giannis , nepotism & his powerplays, Bucks paid Alex $1,1M few years back, and now will pay him additional $800- ish K.
Alex Ant in his previous teams in Greece, probably had salary around $3000-4000 a month and was still overpaid because he had no business playing that league.


This multi layers of nepotism that NBA now has, involving two out of top 5 best players eventually hurt already shaken integrity of entire league. It sends message that players with power now hold all the power over teams and blackmail them into playing their skilless kids, brothers...
Eventually, you run into Kawhi Leonard- Aspiration- like situation, where whole things smells like nothing but sideways angles for teams to pay their superstars extra money.


I agree. If Giannis is unhappy, he should ask for a trade. There is no perfect decision, one way or another, someone or something comes as a consequence. Giannis wants to be a good guy with loyalty and that is what he wants him image perceived. But he should also know that if he wants to win a second or third championship, it is not going to be with Milwaukee Bucks and that is just common sense. If his mind is set on winning, he should absolutely ask for a trade.

Also regarding nepotism, that is happening in the NBA. But there is a line of pure nepotism or something that actually works. Yes, Giannis is the franchise player and franchise wants to entice him to stay. That is actually within the scope how things work. But does it work or not? It is a separate issue.

That happens in business world too. The fine line of pure nepotism and something that works is very clear. Or another word, you can hire someone because of your relation, but does it work or not actually define it nepotism or not.


Worst thing is that we know how this will end. He will ask trade eventually. If you read between the lines, he already did ask, but only circled Knicks.

And i find this especially s***y because of it. He knows he be traded or outright leave, he knows those moves they make don't help them, he knows this season, or any other season with Bucks, from title aspirations is waste of time. And he just abuses them to get what he wants, that goes beyond basketball, into pure nepotism for sake of milking money off team.

The way he handled summer was also very s***y, almost Dwight level immature. He said he will evaluate Bucks after summer. Summer flew by, and we find out he already wanted to be part of Knicks. And as ultimate middle finger to a team, he now has another bum brother on payroll of a team. Team that already has issues with talent and could use any help they can find. No. Instead, second wasted roster spot goes to his brother.

“I’m a Milwaukee Buck, but most importantly I’m a winner,” Antetokounmpo continued. “I want to win. I have to do whatever it takes for me to win and if there’s a better situation for me to win the Larry O’Brien [Trophy], I have to take that better situation.”


Giannis in 2023, weeks before Lillard trade happened.

He has been pulling strings and playing with Bucks future for years now. He won a title, and great, he will be forever remembered in that context, but everything since (maybe even before) that title, has his fingers of incompetence tangled into Bucks downfall.

And Bucks fans pretty much are fine with open prostitution of a team in his service. To me that's a worst part. Guy won you a title. You paid him near billion dollars for it. You don't "own" him nothing. He is milking money through his brothers, plays politic games, pulls strings and is gaslighting you every year.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#963 » by rcklsscognition » Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:02 pm

Caleb Houston dropped 21
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#964 » by JoshuaPotter » Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:06 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Caleb Houston dropped 21


A team that doesn't really care about improving their defense or at the very least thinks they have players to minimize his weaknesses will be very happy with Houston as a role player.
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#965 » by SS_MagicMark » Tue Oct 14, 2025 3:33 pm

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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#966 » by eyriq » Tue Oct 14, 2025 3:37 pm

SS_MagicMark wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/46554922/simulating-2025-2026-nba-season-predictions-nba-cup-playoffs-finals-champion-draft-lottery

I could live with this.

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Hmmm, acceptable indeed
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#967 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Tue Oct 14, 2025 4:20 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Caleb Houston dropped 21

Happy for him. I hope he have a great season but not against us.
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Go Magic, Go Dwight, Go Vuc, Go Paolo, Go Keegan :)
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#968 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Tue Oct 14, 2025 4:25 pm

SS_MagicMark wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/46554922/simulating-2025-2026-nba-season-predictions-nba-cup-playoffs-finals-champion-draft-lottery

I could live with this.

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If we win, someone must make a thread and call it “In accordance to simulation 620…” :D
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Go Magic, Go Dwight, Go Vuc, Go Paolo, Go Keegan :)
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#969 » by eyriq » Tue Oct 14, 2025 4:36 pm

Lots of ex-Magics

Read on Twitter
?t=_Lwe1AGxvOvy8ZfeuFk39Q&s=19
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#970 » by RookieStar » Tue Oct 14, 2025 8:50 pm

SS_MagicMark wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/46554922/simulating-2025-2026-nba-season-predictions-nba-cup-playoffs-finals-champion-draft-lottery

I could live with this.

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Twist my arm gently and Ill agree to that
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#971 » by JoshuaPotter » Tue Oct 14, 2025 11:37 pm

eyriq wrote:Lots of ex-Magics

Read on Twitter
?t=_Lwe1AGxvOvy8ZfeuFk39Q&s=19


Grave yard of second chances.
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#972 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Oct 15, 2025 12:29 am

eyriq wrote:Lots of ex-Magics

Read on Twitter
?t=_Lwe1AGxvOvy8ZfeuFk39Q&s=19


Poor Mac McClung . . .
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#973 » by MasterGMer » Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:12 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bold part is so true, and that's my pov as well.

It's abusive personal relationship where pro team acts like abused wife, begging on her knees all the time for husband to stay, bribing him with cheap offers. And team should never, at this level beg anybody. Pride and integrity are things A level teams should always keep.

Thing is, if guy wants to leave, he should leave. Because that team even with Giannis is irrelevant. But because of his clear pressure & power plays , but with very low intelligence involved, he plays major role in own unhappiness and continues to hurt Bucks future, that will end up being future without anyway.

This level of nepotism is unheard of in pro sports at this level. He blackmailed Greece and Bucks into signing their unskilled, untalented bum brothers on pro contracts, with limited amount of roster spots, to be paid serious money.

I can't stress hard enough how incompetent Alex Antetokumpo is to be pro player. Anywhere. Let alone in nba.

This is very same player that:
- went undrafted
- got fired in Spain because he sucked
- got cut by G league team because he sucked
- went to play in second division Adriatic league, where, as i said on GB, players play for €800 a month ($930 ) and still sucked, but got pro contract from Greek's PAOK as PR move.
- went to A division in Greece where he was worst player on mediocre PAOK team
- as award for being worst player, he signed with another A tear Greek team, Aris, where he continued to be worst player in entire league

And as award for being 100% incapable of playing basketball at any serious or semi serious level, he is now in nba.



With two separated contracts with Bucks, that only happened because of Giannis , nepotism & his powerplays, Bucks paid Alex $1,1M few years back, and now will pay him additional $800- ish K.
Alex Ant in his previous teams in Greece, probably had salary around $3000-4000 a month and was still overpaid because he had no business playing that league.


This multi layers of nepotism that NBA now has, involving two out of top 5 best players eventually hurt already shaken integrity of entire league. It sends message that players with power now hold all the power over teams and blackmail them into playing their skilless kids, brothers...
Eventually, you run into Kawhi Leonard- Aspiration- like situation, where whole things smells like nothing but sideways angles for teams to pay their superstars extra money.


I agree. If Giannis is unhappy, he should ask for a trade. There is no perfect decision, one way or another, someone or something comes as a consequence. Giannis wants to be a good guy with loyalty and that is what he wants him image perceived. But he should also know that if he wants to win a second or third championship, it is not going to be with Milwaukee Bucks and that is just common sense. If his mind is set on winning, he should absolutely ask for a trade.

Also regarding nepotism, that is happening in the NBA. But there is a line of pure nepotism or something that actually works. Yes, Giannis is the franchise player and franchise wants to entice him to stay. That is actually within the scope how things work. But does it work or not? It is a separate issue.

That happens in business world too. The fine line of pure nepotism and something that works is very clear. Or another word, you can hire someone because of your relation, but does it work or not actually define it nepotism or not.


Worst thing is that we know how this will end. He will ask trade eventually. If you read between the lines, he already did ask, but only circled Knicks.

And i find this especially s***y because of it. He knows he be traded or outright leave, he knows those moves they make don't help them, he knows this season, or any other season with Bucks, from title aspirations is waste of time. And he just abuses them to get what he wants, that goes beyond basketball, into pure nepotism for sake of milking money off team.

The way he handled summer was also very s***y, almost Dwight level immature. He said he will evaluate Bucks after summer. Summer flew by, and we find out he already wanted to be part of Knicks. And as ultimate middle finger to a team, he now has another bum brother on payroll of a team. Team that already has issues with talent and could use any help they can find. No. Instead, second wasted roster spot goes to his brother.

“I’m a Milwaukee Buck, but most importantly I’m a winner,” Antetokounmpo continued. “I want to win. I have to do whatever it takes for me to win and if there’s a better situation for me to win the Larry O’Brien [Trophy], I have to take that better situation.”


Giannis in 2023, weeks before Lillard trade happened.

He has been pulling strings and playing with Bucks future for years now. He won a title, and great, he will be forever remembered in that context, but everything since (maybe even before) that title, has his fingers of incompetence tangled into Bucks downfall.

And Bucks fans pretty much are fine with open prostitution of a team in his service. To me that's a worst part. Guy won you a title. You paid him near billion dollars for it. You don't "own" him nothing. He is milking money through his brothers, plays politic games, pulls strings and is gaslighting you every year.


From what I read and I understand, Giannis has no clue of what was happening regarding Alex, who is his brother. That could totally be wrong.

Giannis even came out and said he had nothing to do with it.

So... That could be wrong. Because this kinda decision, he has to be informed before it happened, which is just common sense.

But IMO I think this marriage of Giannis and Milwaukee Bucks is coming to an end as late as the end of this regular season
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#974 » by RookieStar » Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:00 am

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
I agree. If Giannis is unhappy, he should ask for a trade. There is no perfect decision, one way or another, someone or something comes as a consequence. Giannis wants to be a good guy with loyalty and that is what he wants him image perceived. But he should also know that if he wants to win a second or third championship, it is not going to be with Milwaukee Bucks and that is just common sense. If his mind is set on winning, he should absolutely ask for a trade.

Also regarding nepotism, that is happening in the NBA. But there is a line of pure nepotism or something that actually works. Yes, Giannis is the franchise player and franchise wants to entice him to stay. That is actually within the scope how things work. But does it work or not? It is a separate issue.

That happens in business world too. The fine line of pure nepotism and something that works is very clear. Or another word, you can hire someone because of your relation, but does it work or not actually define it nepotism or not.


Worst thing is that we know how this will end. He will ask trade eventually. If you read between the lines, he already did ask, but only circled Knicks.

And i find this especially s***y because of it. He knows he be traded or outright leave, he knows those moves they make don't help them, he knows this season, or any other season with Bucks, from title aspirations is waste of time. And he just abuses them to get what he wants, that goes beyond basketball, into pure nepotism for sake of milking money off team.

The way he handled summer was also very s***y, almost Dwight level immature. He said he will evaluate Bucks after summer. Summer flew by, and we find out he already wanted to be part of Knicks. And as ultimate middle finger to a team, he now has another bum brother on payroll of a team. Team that already has issues with talent and could use any help they can find. No. Instead, second wasted roster spot goes to his brother.

“I’m a Milwaukee Buck, but most importantly I’m a winner,” Antetokounmpo continued. “I want to win. I have to do whatever it takes for me to win and if there’s a better situation for me to win the Larry O’Brien [Trophy], I have to take that better situation.”


Giannis in 2023, weeks before Lillard trade happened.

He has been pulling strings and playing with Bucks future for years now. He won a title, and great, he will be forever remembered in that context, but everything since (maybe even before) that title, has his fingers of incompetence tangled into Bucks downfall.

And Bucks fans pretty much are fine with open prostitution of a team in his service. To me that's a worst part. Guy won you a title. You paid him near billion dollars for it. You don't "own" him nothing. He is milking money through his brothers, plays politic games, pulls strings and is gaslighting you every year.


From what I read and I understand, Giannis has no clue of what was happening regarding Alex, who is his brother. That could totally be wrong.

Giannis even came out and said he had nothing to do with it.

So... That could be wrong. Because this kinda decision, he has to be informed before it happened, which is just common sense.

But IMO I think this marriage of Giannis and Milwaukee Bucks is coming to an end as late as the end of this regular season


Giannis has no clue and didnt do anything about it? Of course... Ballmer also didnt know anythig about Aspirations paying Kawhii...
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#975 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:04 am

RookieStar wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Worst thing is that we know how this will end. He will ask trade eventually. If you read between the lines, he already did ask, but only circled Knicks.

And i find this especially s***y because of it. He knows he be traded or outright leave, he knows those moves they make don't help them, he knows this season, or any other season with Bucks, from title aspirations is waste of time. And he just abuses them to get what he wants, that goes beyond basketball, into pure nepotism for sake of milking money off team.

The way he handled summer was also very s***y, almost Dwight level immature. He said he will evaluate Bucks after summer. Summer flew by, and we find out he already wanted to be part of Knicks. And as ultimate middle finger to a team, he now has another bum brother on payroll of a team. Team that already has issues with talent and could use any help they can find. No. Instead, second wasted roster spot goes to his brother.



Giannis in 2023, weeks before Lillard trade happened.

He has been pulling strings and playing with Bucks future for years now. He won a title, and great, he will be forever remembered in that context, but everything since (maybe even before) that title, has his fingers of incompetence tangled into Bucks downfall.

And Bucks fans pretty much are fine with open prostitution of a team in his service. To me that's a worst part. Guy won you a title. You paid him near billion dollars for it. You don't "own" him nothing. He is milking money through his brothers, plays politic games, pulls strings and is gaslighting you every year.


From what I read and I understand, Giannis has no clue of what was happening regarding Alex, who is his brother. That could totally be wrong.

Giannis even came out and said he had nothing to do with it.

So... That could be wrong. Because this kinda decision, he has to be informed before it happened, which is just common sense.

But IMO I think this marriage of Giannis and Milwaukee Bucks is coming to an end as late as the end of this regular season


Giannis has no clue and didnt do anything about it? Of course... Ballmer also didnt know anythig about Aspirations paying Kawhii...


Millionaires & billionaires playing dumb since start of the world.

By pretty much all perimeters, Alex Ante was one of the worst Greece A1 league players. Guy couldn't play Adriatic second tear league. I can't stress hard enough how pathetic this is. Okey, i'll try. My local team, Šibenka, plays there. Few years ago 22 years old player from my team quilt basketball to become a priest. My friend was there for trail training 8-10 years ago and decided it's more lucrative to have real job. People play there for $1500 a month. Nobody makes big money. And Alex couldn't play due lack of talent.

Thanasis has been resigned by Bucks, at age of 33, post ACL tear to be 5th center on roster that will probably start one of G. Harris/ Cole Anthony at guard spots. Thanasis is 6'6 center who can't shoot, rebound nor protect rim. Guy is definition of wasted roster spot. On position they have: Turner, Jericho Sims, Pete Nance, Tyler Smith, Bobby Portis and even Giannis himself.

In last 8 games for his team in Greece, Kostas has 3 DNP-CDs and cumulative 35 min played this season.Logical national team member to select.

Not a single Kumpo brother would have been pro basketball player if it's not for Giannis who plays politics to force teams to get them. It's blackmail tactic 1/1. This whole fasade of "nice guy" is like Lebron's book reading. Superficial, shallow mask they put to play in public.

This whole thing isn't far off from Aspiration Kawhi thing. It's extortion. Bucks need to pay two clueless bums in fear of Giannis asking trade in public. Paying one wasn't enough, they now have to pay guy who's basketball talent is at level of some of forum members.

And pls let's not be 5 years old -level naive and suck into that "Giannis didn't know".

Go back and read all the stuff that Giannis was saying to media in past to sell idea of his brothers being "better than him". Alex in particular. It was bombshell news in 2017. For TMZ. HoopsHype, SI. com and all the other major media outlets.

Than both Kostas & Alex started playing in USA schools to find out, both of them suck. Alex, who Giannis claimed is better, ended up being 3 star recruit and had no college offers, that's why he went back in Europe, Kostas ended up on Dayton, with 14-17 record, as bench player. Guess who is only player from that roster to make it to nba? :roll:

Giannis is Greek God of Nepotism who used all his power and forced his brothers on both Greece national team and Bucks.


But at the end of a day, all his nepo-power ended up costing him and his teams. Greece had no starting level C and they got demolished by Nurkić, Segun, Valanciunas & Markannen.
Bucks have paper thin roster with 2 wasted roster spots.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#976 » by basketballRob » Thu Oct 16, 2025 3:44 am

Simons looked really bad when I watched a little of the game today. Maybe we dodged a bullet.

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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#977 » by Idiosyncratic » Thu Oct 16, 2025 3:51 am

basketballRob wrote:Simons looked really bad when I watched a little of the game today. Maybe we dodged a bullet.

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He's been pretty good before this game, I think he will be pretty solid off the bench for them. He's not a bad player, the 28 million dollar contract is just way too much.

I still think maybe there is a world where getting a guy like him for cheap and praying the Suns pick ended top 3 could have been the right move for us, but I am excited to start hopefully winning a lot this year with Bane. We shall see.
Skybox
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#978 » by Skybox » Thu Oct 16, 2025 12:03 pm

Malcolm Brogdon announces his retirement...clearly the injuries aren't going away
pepe1991
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#979 » by pepe1991 » Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:44 am

Skybox wrote:Malcolm Brogdon announces his retirement...clearly the injuries aren't going away


bro is year younger than me and retired. I have like 32 years left :cry:
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: 2025-2026: Around the League 

Post#980 » by GelbeWand09 » Fri Oct 17, 2025 11:28 am

I'm really sorry for Kings fans, just imaging watching a team with DeRozen, LaVine, Schröder (no, he is not a good NBA player no matter what he does on the national team), Westbrook & very good but super flawed Sabonis + giving Murray 140 Mio. Yikes, really loved watching the Webber / Divac Kings back in the day.
At least Clifford looks solid/good so far but he should as a 23 year old rookie, who's going to be 24 in february already.

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