OT: What is the most brutal way to be knocked out of the playoffs?

[MiamiBulls]

Game 7 1994 NBA Finals | 6 Point Loss by NYK were in position to take the lead.

John Starks shot 2 for 18 from the field, 0-11 from 3 in Game 7

[Doctor MJ]

While it was unfortunate about the suspensions, even Nash’s teammates admitted Nash flipped on the play making it far worse than it needed to be. Horry’s play was dirty no doubt, but nash flinging himself into the first row made it much worse.

Suns had a chance to force game 6, but got wrecked. Spurs always had their number. I do agree it was a lame way for that series to go, but nash didn’t need to flop as hard as he done on a bad play.

https://www.abc15.com/sports/sports-blogs-local/did-suns-guard-steve-nash-embellish-robert-horry-s-infamous-hip-check-that-led-to-suspensions-

None of this changes the fact that the rule wasn't something that realistically factored in what humans do when a they see something violent happens on the court, and the NBA after this one time stopped following it without taking it off the books.

Re: had a chance to force Game 6, but got wrecked. I think you mean they had a chance to go up 3-2 in Game 5 without their two players, but couldn't quite do it despite burning their nitro on the game because they knew that this was their home game, and Game 6 would be on the road.

Re: Spurs always had their number. I mean, that's what people were saying going into the 2010 series where the Suns swept the Spurs. For some reason, people tend to forget about this when they look to make a simple narrative about the matchup.

Yeah, and 2010 required the Suns moving away from 7 seconds or less with an entirely different coach and lots of different players from the D'Antoni era. 2008 was his nail in the coffin against the Spurs.

Spurs have won 6 of their last 8 playoff series. they absolutely had Phoenix's number, nothing controversial about that.

And yes, it is a stupid rule, but Nash flopping did just as much harm even getting it to that point.

Game 6 the Suns had a chance to level the series, and the Spurs didn't have Robery Horry. The Suns always had a mental block against San Antonio, not sure why every excuse needs to be made for them. In Game 6 Suns got a rested Diaw and Amare back, while the Spurs were the ones who had to fight back in Game 5 tooth and nail to the Suns credit.

Spurs having the much better coach, and Tim Duncan went a long way.

Oh I'd push back hard against your narrative of events.

First there's the matter that the whole league plays pace & space now, and the Spurs adopting a more Suns-like approach was critical to them regaining relevancy in the 2010s. Pop has had a GOAT coaching career, but when it comes to the big paradigm shift of the 21st century, he was a latecomer compared to D'Antoni.

Second the Suns in 2010 was not them giving up on pace & space but going back to it. Remember, they had Channing Frye as their center at that point, which meant they had a considerably spacier lineup than they did with Amar'e, let alone Shaq who was there in 2008, and should go down as one of the worst player acquisitions in history (considering they gave up Marion and pace & space to make that happen).

Re: Game the Suns had a chance. You're trying to say they could have still maybe won, and sure that's true.

What I'm saying is that a stupid rule that the NBA immediately afterward stopped honoring tipped the scales against a paradigm shifting team. Everyone involved in the decision deserves to where a dunce cap forever, and when a team loses that way, it's a special kind of frustration.

[jokeboy86]

Game 7 of the 2000 WC Finals was brutal for Blazer fans. Just awful.

A buddy of mine thought it was rigged and Rasheed took a bribe, that's how shocked he was as the Lakers run was happening.

[LakersLegacy]

Nick Anderson coming behind Jordan as the crowd gasped
But Jordan did not realize to protect the ball after did not practice most of that year and missed most of that season
Nick Anderson stealing the ball from Jordan for the series

[dirkdiggler4177]

[Rust_Cohle]

None of this changes the fact that the rule wasn't something that realistically factored in what humans do when a they see something violent happens on the court, and the NBA after this one time stopped following it without taking it off the books.

Re: had a chance to force Game 6, but got wrecked. I think you mean they had a chance to go up 3-2 in Game 5 without their two players, but couldn't quite do it despite burning their nitro on the game because they knew that this was their home game, and Game 6 would be on the road.

Re: Spurs always had their number. I mean, that's what people were saying going into the 2010 series where the Suns swept the Spurs. For some reason, people tend to forget about this when they look to make a simple narrative about the matchup.

Yeah, and 2010 required the Suns moving away from 7 seconds or less with an entirely different coach and lots of different players from the D'Antoni era. 2008 was his nail in the coffin against the Spurs.

Spurs have won 6 of their last 8 playoff series. they absolutely had Phoenix's number, nothing controversial about that.

And yes, it is a stupid rule, but Nash flopping did just as much harm even getting it to that point.

Game 6 the Suns had a chance to level the series, and the Spurs didn't have Robery Horry. The Suns always had a mental block against San Antonio, not sure why every excuse needs to be made for them. In Game 6 Suns got a rested Diaw and Amare back, while the Spurs were the ones who had to fight back in Game 5 tooth and nail to the Suns credit.

Spurs having the much better coach, and Tim Duncan went a long way.

Oh I'd push back hard against your narrative of events.

First there's the matter that the whole league plays pace & space now, and the Spurs adopting a more Suns-like approach was critical to them regaining relevancy in the 2010s. Pop has had a GOAT coaching career, but when it comes to the big paradigm shift of the 21st century, he was a latecomer compared to D'Antoni.

Second the Suns in 2010 was not them giving up on pace & space but going back to it. Remember, they had Channing Frye as their center at that point, which meant they had a considerably spacier lineup than they did with Amar'e, let alone Shaq who was there in 2008, and should go down as one of the worst player acquisitions in history (considering they gave up Marion and pace & space to make that happen).

Re: Game the Suns had a chance. You're trying to say they could have still maybe won, and sure that's true.

What I'm saying is that a stupid rule that the NBA immediately afterward stopped honoring tipped the scales against a paradigm shifting team. Everyone involved in the decision deserves to where a dunce cap forever, and when a team loses that way, it's a special kind of frustration.

No disagreement there, and I am not saying Nash deserves all the blame (not that you implied I did) but he didn't help his case very much. It was an incredibly harsh and stupid rule of what was an otherwise really good series.

As for the 2010 team, I'd argue they were far more versatile than D'Antoni's teams. 2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all. They also had way more flexibility defensively which was a huge difference from the D'Antoni teams. Suns got beat at their own pace by the Spurs in 2005 (where games were very high scoring in that series) and 2007. Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns. The Suns were never as flexible tactically as the Spurs until Gentry took over.

D'Antoni may have been ahead with his ideas, but the execution was done much better by better coaches. D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense.

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15k3ku2/we_literally_never_did_anything_for_defense_like/

He may have been ahead of the curve on offense, but light years behind on defense which he made no time for.

[Rust_Cohle]

Almost as bad as giving Wade 25 free throws in a close out game. Mavs had the bigger heartbreak that season blowing a 2-0 lead.

[Dominator83]

C'mon man this is a basketball forum

Its a legit question. This the equivalent of a player calling a time out with no time outs left, or walking the ball in bounds with time on the clock. He asked a good question that relates to all sports and used a example to base it from.

Then should post about basketball youtube not Baseball or soccer for that matter, just saying.

You don't have to post in a thread you aren't interested in. Theres plenty of other threads about the same stuff.

But yea as for the OP question thats pretty equal to the Chris Weber Michigan timeout call.

If my team is losing a game 7, i'd honestly rather they get blown out early on, than to string me along all game only to lose in a heart breaker

[Gusto1903]

I remember Turkey had 5 Freethrows at the end of overtime of a do or die group stage game against Team USA in the Basketball Worldcup 2019 and they missed all 5.
One of them would have them win the game and advance.

Even more horrible! They were up 79-81 with 0.1seconds left in regulation and stupidly fouled Jayson Tatums wild Buzzerbeater attempt which wasnt going in anyway.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, and 2010 required the Suns moving away from 7 seconds or less with an entirely different coach and lots of different players from the D'Antoni era. 2008 was his nail in the coffin against the Spurs.

Spurs have won 6 of their last 8 playoff series. they absolutely had Phoenix's number, nothing controversial about that.

And yes, it is a stupid rule, but Nash flopping did just as much harm even getting it to that point.

Game 6 the Suns had a chance to level the series, and the Spurs didn't have Robery Horry. The Suns always had a mental block against San Antonio, not sure why every excuse needs to be made for them. In Game 6 Suns got a rested Diaw and Amare back, while the Spurs were the ones who had to fight back in Game 5 tooth and nail to the Suns credit.

Spurs having the much better coach, and Tim Duncan went a long way.

Oh I'd push back hard against your narrative of events.

First there's the matter that the whole league plays pace & space now, and the Spurs adopting a more Suns-like approach was critical to them regaining relevancy in the 2010s. Pop has had a GOAT coaching career, but when it comes to the big paradigm shift of the 21st century, he was a latecomer compared to D'Antoni.

Second the Suns in 2010 was not them giving up on pace & space but going back to it. Remember, they had Channing Frye as their center at that point, which meant they had a considerably spacier lineup than they did with Amar'e, let alone Shaq who was there in 2008, and should go down as one of the worst player acquisitions in history (considering they gave up Marion and pace & space to make that happen).

Re: Game the Suns had a chance. You're trying to say they could have still maybe won, and sure that's true.

What I'm saying is that a stupid rule that the NBA immediately afterward stopped honoring tipped the scales against a paradigm shifting team. Everyone involved in the decision deserves to where a dunce cap forever, and when a team loses that way, it's a special kind of frustration.

No disagreement there, and I am not saying Nash deserves all the blame (not that you implied I did) but he didn't help his case very much. It was an incredibly harsh and stupid rule of what was an otherwise really good series.

As for the 2010 team, I'd argue they were far more versatile than D'Antoni's teams. 2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all. They also had way more flexibility defensively which was a huge difference from the D'Antoni teams. Suns got beat at their own pace by the Spurs in 2005 (where games were very high scoring in that series) and 2007. Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns. The Suns were never as flexible tactically as the Spurs until Gentry took over.

D'Antoni may have been ahead with his ideas, but the execution was done much better by better coaches. D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense.

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15k3ku2/we_literally_never_did_anything_for_defense_like/

He may have been ahead of the curve on offense, but light years behind on defense which he made no time for.

I would question what "Seven Seconds or Less" means in your assessment if you think they weren't doing it in 2010. Here are the Suns' paces each year from Nash's arrival:

2005 - 95.9
2006 - 95.8
2007 - 95.6
2008 - 96.7
2009 - 96.0
2010 - 95.3

This is actually remarkably consistent and not remotely what we'd expect if there'd been some dramatic shift in tactics.

Now I will say that Nash had his fastest offensive possessions in 2005, but the idea that Nash wasn't looking to take advantage in transition in the subsequent years just doesn't make sense. Both D'Antoni & Gentry knew that you let Nash make the decisions on the floor, and the pace largely comes from that.

Also, the fact that they did end up at the same pace this whole time given that Nash's possessions slowed down slightly is only possible because the entire league was playing faster, which they were doing because it was working.

Re: "way more defensive flexibility on defense in 2010", I wouldn't say that changes to their defense really had anything to do with changes in offensive philosophy. The mere fact that they played Frye as a 5 makes clear that they were still doing largely the same thing.

Re: more flexible tactically with Gentry. Hmm, this is plausible but not a repudiation of D'Antoni's strategy. We also shouldn't act like Gentry had a reputation as a tactical mastermind.

Re: "Suns got beat at their own pace." Hmm, this in the context of our conversation makes it sounds like you're saying that Pace was the reason they lost to the Spurs in 2005, but I can't imagine you actually think this.

Re: "Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns." I'd ask you to clarify what exactly you mean by this. By definition they won, and also by definition, they had to roughly play at the same overall pace as their opponent.

RE: "D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense." You talk as if D'Antoni wasn't coach of a 65-17 team 13 years after 2005, and also as if Gentry's 2010s work was more respected than D'Antoni.

But I would agree that D'Antoni's strength was on offense and weakness on defense. Fine to point out the defensive limitations, just be sure not to confuse those issues with something being wrong on offense.

Last thing I'll just emphasize: If playing faster wasn't the right move in the 00s, then why did pace keep going up through the 2010s?

I'll just say, when I hear people in 2025 say the same stuff that came out of skeptics mouths in 2005, as if the last 20 years didn't rewrite everything we know about top tier basketball, I can't help but folks need to re-examine what they thought they knew back then.

It was understandable to think that pace & space was a gimmick in 2005, but given that this is an indefensible perspective in 2025 when basically everyone plays faster and shoots more 3's than norms 20 years, any "gimmick" conclusions from back then need to be re-thought out.

[bkkrh]

For me personally it is mostly when you know the knockout was heavily impacted by external factors. The Pacers losing Haliburton. Wrong referee decisions.

The 2 worst all time examples to me are the 97 Knicks - Heat series and to a lesser extend the 07 Suns - Spurs series.

[Rust_Cohle]

Oh I'd push back hard against your narrative of events.

First there's the matter that the whole league plays pace & space now, and the Spurs adopting a more Suns-like approach was critical to them regaining relevancy in the 2010s. Pop has had a GOAT coaching career, but when it comes to the big paradigm shift of the 21st century, he was a latecomer compared to D'Antoni.

Second the Suns in 2010 was not them giving up on pace & space but going back to it. Remember, they had Channing Frye as their center at that point, which meant they had a considerably spacier lineup than they did with Amar'e, let alone Shaq who was there in 2008, and should go down as one of the worst player acquisitions in history (considering they gave up Marion and pace & space to make that happen).

Re: Game the Suns had a chance. You're trying to say they could have still maybe won, and sure that's true.

What I'm saying is that a stupid rule that the NBA immediately afterward stopped honoring tipped the scales against a paradigm shifting team. Everyone involved in the decision deserves to where a dunce cap forever, and when a team loses that way, it's a special kind of frustration.

No disagreement there, and I am not saying Nash deserves all the blame (not that you implied I did) but he didn't help his case very much. It was an incredibly harsh and stupid rule of what was an otherwise really good series.

As for the 2010 team, I'd argue they were far more versatile than D'Antoni's teams. 2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all. They also had way more flexibility defensively which was a huge difference from the D'Antoni teams. Suns got beat at their own pace by the Spurs in 2005 (where games were very high scoring in that series) and 2007. Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns. The Suns were never as flexible tactically as the Spurs until Gentry took over.

D'Antoni may have been ahead with his ideas, but the execution was done much better by better coaches. D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense.

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15k3ku2/we_literally_never_did_anything_for_defense_like/

He may have been ahead of the curve on offense, but light years behind on defense which he made no time for.

I would question what "Seven Seconds or Less" means in your assessment if you think they weren't doing it in 2010. Here are the Suns' paces each year from Nash's arrival:

2005 - 95.9
2006 - 95.8
2007 - 95.6
2008 - 96.7
2009 - 96.0
2010 - 95.3

This is actually remarkably consistent and not remotely what we'd expect if there'd been some dramatic shift in tactics.

Now I will say that Nash had his fastest offensive possessions in 2005, but the idea that Nash wasn't looking to take advantage in transition in the subsequent years just doesn't make sense. Both D'Antoni & Gentry knew that you let Nash make the decisions on the floor, and the pace largely comes from that.

Also, the fact that they did end up at the same pace this whole time given that Nash's possessions slowed down slightly is only possible because the entire league was playing faster, which they were doing because it was working.

Re: "way more defensive flexibility on defense in 2010", I wouldn't say that changes to their defense really had anything to do with changes in offensive philosophy. The mere fact that they played Frye as a 5 makes clear that they were still doing largely the same thing.

Re: more flexible tactically with Gentry. Hmm, this is plausible but not a repudiation of D'Antoni's strategy. We also shouldn't act like Gentry had a reputation as a tactical mastermind.

Re: "Suns got beat at their own pace." Hmm, this in the context of our conversation makes it sounds like you're saying that Pace was the reason they lost to the Spurs in 2005, but I can't imagine you actually think this.

Re: "Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns." I'd ask you to clarify what exactly you mean by this. By definition they won, and also by definition, they had to roughly play at the same overall pace as their opponent.

RE: "D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense." You talk as if D'Antoni wasn't coach of a 65-17 team 13 years after 2005, and also as if Gentry's 2010s work was more respected than D'Antoni.

But I would agree that D'Antoni's strength was on offense and weakness on defense. Fine to point out the defensive limitations, just be sure not to confuse those issues with something being wrong on offense.

Last thing I'll just emphasize: If playing faster wasn't the right move in the 00s, then why did pace keep going up through the 2010s?

I'll just say, when I hear people in 2025 say the same stuff that came out of skeptics mouths in 2005, as if the last 20 years didn't rewrite everything we know about top tier basketball, I can't help but folks need to re-examine what they thought they knew back then.

It was understandable to think that pace & space was a gimmick in 2005, but given that this is an indefensible perspective in 2025 when basically everyone plays faster and shoots more 3's than norms 20 years, any "gimmick" conclusions from back then need to be re-thought out.

The problem isn't just pace, it's about defense. The Spurs in 2005 were able to do both, D'Antoni could only zero on on being elite on offense. I never said playing faster is wrong, I literally said he was ahead of the curve with offense sure, but with zero respect to defense he was never going to be a title winning coach. He was far too stubborn.

It's not about re-examining what we knew back then, it's about not seeing what we knew back then about those Suns teams with rose coloured glasses because they were fun to watch on offense. They even got Shaq to try and limit the Spurs which goes against everything D'Antoni would want to do with his system. Even Phoenix back then felt it was time to move on from him and his tactics, and focus much more on defense.

It's not about pace, it's about defense. It is very hard to win if you want to keep giving up 115 points a night and this is before the insane amount of 3's we see much more in recent years. Even amazing offensive teams like the Warriors and 2014 Spurs were FAR better defensively than those Suns teams. As I showed you in that Knicks interview, D'Antoni gives zero creedence to basketball. He may as well be the Blackberry of the NBA done in by his own hubris. It was fun basketball until they ran into very disciplined teams. He would have his teams push the pace like crazy with just 7 man rotations. That may work in the regular season, but playoffs are a very different animal where pace tends to slow down as well.

[ShootersShoot]

For me its having the other team on the ropes would be first followed by a devastating injury. 2016 and 2019 warriors come to mind but also 2000 blazers and this years pacers.

Missing an easy game winner or losing on a last second shot as well.

[Doctor MJ]

No disagreement there, and I am not saying Nash deserves all the blame (not that you implied I did) but he didn't help his case very much. It was an incredibly harsh and stupid rule of what was an otherwise really good series.

As for the 2010 team, I'd argue they were far more versatile than D'Antoni's teams. 2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all. They also had way more flexibility defensively which was a huge difference from the D'Antoni teams. Suns got beat at their own pace by the Spurs in 2005 (where games were very high scoring in that series) and 2007. Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns. The Suns were never as flexible tactically as the Spurs until Gentry took over.

D'Antoni may have been ahead with his ideas, but the execution was done much better by better coaches. D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense.

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15k3ku2/we_literally_never_did_anything_for_defense_like/

He may have been ahead of the curve on offense, but light years behind on defense which he made no time for.

I would question what "Seven Seconds or Less" means in your assessment if you think they weren't doing it in 2010. Here are the Suns' paces each year from Nash's arrival:

2005 - 95.9
2006 - 95.8
2007 - 95.6
2008 - 96.7
2009 - 96.0
2010 - 95.3

This is actually remarkably consistent and not remotely what we'd expect if there'd been some dramatic shift in tactics.

Now I will say that Nash had his fastest offensive possessions in 2005, but the idea that Nash wasn't looking to take advantage in transition in the subsequent years just doesn't make sense. Both D'Antoni & Gentry knew that you let Nash make the decisions on the floor, and the pace largely comes from that.

Also, the fact that they did end up at the same pace this whole time given that Nash's possessions slowed down slightly is only possible because the entire league was playing faster, which they were doing because it was working.

Re: "way more defensive flexibility on defense in 2010", I wouldn't say that changes to their defense really had anything to do with changes in offensive philosophy. The mere fact that they played Frye as a 5 makes clear that they were still doing largely the same thing.

Re: more flexible tactically with Gentry. Hmm, this is plausible but not a repudiation of D'Antoni's strategy. We also shouldn't act like Gentry had a reputation as a tactical mastermind.

Re: "Suns got beat at their own pace." Hmm, this in the context of our conversation makes it sounds like you're saying that Pace was the reason they lost to the Spurs in 2005, but I can't imagine you actually think this.

Re: "Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns." I'd ask you to clarify what exactly you mean by this. By definition they won, and also by definition, they had to roughly play at the same overall pace as their opponent.

RE: "D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense." You talk as if D'Antoni wasn't coach of a 65-17 team 13 years after 2005, and also as if Gentry's 2010s work was more respected than D'Antoni.

But I would agree that D'Antoni's strength was on offense and weakness on defense. Fine to point out the defensive limitations, just be sure not to confuse those issues with something being wrong on offense.

Last thing I'll just emphasize: If playing faster wasn't the right move in the 00s, then why did pace keep going up through the 2010s?

I'll just say, when I hear people in 2025 say the same stuff that came out of skeptics mouths in 2005, as if the last 20 years didn't rewrite everything we know about top tier basketball, I can't help but folks need to re-examine what they thought they knew back then.

It was understandable to think that pace & space was a gimmick in 2005, but given that this is an indefensible perspective in 2025 when basically everyone plays faster and shoots more 3's than norms 20 years, any "gimmick" conclusions from back then need to be re-thought out.

The problem isn't just pace, it's about defense. The Spurs in 2005 were able to do both, D'Antoni could only zero on on being elite on offense. I never said playing faster is wrong, I literally said he was ahead of the curve with offense sure, but with zero respect to defense he was never going to be a title winning coach. He was far too stubborn.

It's not about re-examining what we knew back then, it's about not seeing what we knew back then about those Suns teams with rose coloured glasses because they were fun to watch on offense. They even got Shaq to try and limit the Spurs which goes against everything D'Antoni would want to do with his system. Even Phoenix back then felt it was time to move on from him and his tactics, and focus much more on defense.

It's not about pace, it's about defense. It is very hard to win if you want to keep giving up 115 points a night and this is before the insane amount of 3's we see much more in recent years. Even amazing offensive teams like the Warriors and 2014 Spurs were FAR better defensively than those Suns teams. As I showed you in that Knicks interview, D'Antoni gives zero creedence to basketball. He may as well be the Blackberry of the NBA done in by his own hubris. It was fun basketball until they ran into very disciplined teams. He would have his teams push the pace like crazy with just 7 man rotations. That may work in the regular season, but playoffs are a very different animal where pace tends to slow down as well.

Listen, I have no problem with you criticizing the Suns' defense - I explicitly said it was the weakness, and we can leave it at that.

But when you say "2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all.", if you're not seeing pace as something directly tied to that, I'm just confused what you do mean.

[Rust_Cohle]

I would question what "Seven Seconds or Less" means in your assessment if you think they weren't doing it in 2010. Here are the Suns' paces each year from Nash's arrival:

2005 - 95.9
2006 - 95.8
2007 - 95.6
2008 - 96.7
2009 - 96.0
2010 - 95.3

This is actually remarkably consistent and not remotely what we'd expect if there'd been some dramatic shift in tactics.

Now I will say that Nash had his fastest offensive possessions in 2005, but the idea that Nash wasn't looking to take advantage in transition in the subsequent years just doesn't make sense. Both D'Antoni & Gentry knew that you let Nash make the decisions on the floor, and the pace largely comes from that.

Also, the fact that they did end up at the same pace this whole time given that Nash's possessions slowed down slightly is only possible because the entire league was playing faster, which they were doing because it was working.

Re: "way more defensive flexibility on defense in 2010", I wouldn't say that changes to their defense really had anything to do with changes in offensive philosophy. The mere fact that they played Frye as a 5 makes clear that they were still doing largely the same thing.

Re: more flexible tactically with Gentry. Hmm, this is plausible but not a repudiation of D'Antoni's strategy. We also shouldn't act like Gentry had a reputation as a tactical mastermind.

Re: "Suns got beat at their own pace." Hmm, this in the context of our conversation makes it sounds like you're saying that Pace was the reason they lost to the Spurs in 2005, but I can't imagine you actually think this.

Re: "Spurs were able to play grind it out but also keep pace with the Suns." I'd ask you to clarify what exactly you mean by this. By definition they won, and also by definition, they had to roughly play at the same overall pace as their opponent.

RE: "D'Antoni wouldn't have fared much better in the 2010's as he was too stubborn to respect defense." You talk as if D'Antoni wasn't coach of a 65-17 team 13 years after 2005, and also as if Gentry's 2010s work was more respected than D'Antoni.

But I would agree that D'Antoni's strength was on offense and weakness on defense. Fine to point out the defensive limitations, just be sure not to confuse those issues with something being wrong on offense.

Last thing I'll just emphasize: If playing faster wasn't the right move in the 00s, then why did pace keep going up through the 2010s?

I'll just say, when I hear people in 2025 say the same stuff that came out of skeptics mouths in 2005, as if the last 20 years didn't rewrite everything we know about top tier basketball, I can't help but folks need to re-examine what they thought they knew back then.

It was understandable to think that pace & space was a gimmick in 2005, but given that this is an indefensible perspective in 2025 when basically everyone plays faster and shoots more 3's than norms 20 years, any "gimmick" conclusions from back then need to be re-thought out.

The problem isn't just pace, it's about defense. The Spurs in 2005 were able to do both, D'Antoni could only zero on on being elite on offense. I never said playing faster is wrong, I literally said he was ahead of the curve with offense sure, but with zero respect to defense he was never going to be a title winning coach. He was far too stubborn.

It's not about re-examining what we knew back then, it's about not seeing what we knew back then about those Suns teams with rose coloured glasses because they were fun to watch on offense. They even got Shaq to try and limit the Spurs which goes against everything D'Antoni would want to do with his system. Even Phoenix back then felt it was time to move on from him and his tactics, and focus much more on defense.

It's not about pace, it's about defense. It is very hard to win if you want to keep giving up 115 points a night and this is before the insane amount of 3's we see much more in recent years. Even amazing offensive teams like the Warriors and 2014 Spurs were FAR better defensively than those Suns teams. As I showed you in that Knicks interview, D'Antoni gives zero creedence to basketball. He may as well be the Blackberry of the NBA done in by his own hubris. It was fun basketball until they ran into very disciplined teams. He would have his teams push the pace like crazy with just 7 man rotations. That may work in the regular season, but playoffs are a very different animal where pace tends to slow down as well.

Listen, I have no problem with you criticizing the Suns' defense - I explicitly said it was the weakness, and we can leave it at that.

But when you say "2010 was not doing 7 seconds or less at all.", if you're not seeing pace as something directly tied to that, I'm just confused what you do mean.

In fairness to you I do see the pace stats closer than what I had initially thought. That is fair. But I will say they were definitely slowing down more and more and with Gentry and probably more so after that 2010-11 season:


Teams from SSOL era ranked in descending order by pace or possessions per 48 minutes (winning percentage)

1. — 96.7 … 2007-08 (.671)
2. — 96.0 … 2008-09 (.561) – Worst DRtg of SSOL
3. — 95.9 … 2004-05 (.756)
4. — 95.8 … 2005-06 (.659) – Best DRtg of SSOL
5. — 95.6 … 2006-07 (.744)
6. — 95.3 … 2009-10 (.659) – Best ORtg of SSOL
7. — 94.4 … 2010-11 (.488)
8. — 92.6 … 2011-12 (.500) – Worst ORtg of SSOL


But at the end of the day, I just don’t think D’Antoni was ever gonna be the championship coach even if he could get close with Nash. Total
Disregard for defense was a death sentence.

[dirkdiggler4177]

Almost as bad as giving Wade 25 free throws in a close out game. Mavs had the bigger heartbreak that season blowing a 2-0 lead.

Haha. Excellent point! With that said, it was kinda sad that they allowed for that in the playoffs. If Harden had that whistle during the playoffs he would be the GOAT today.

[Rust_Cohle]

Almost as bad as giving Wade 25 free throws in a close out game. Mavs had the bigger heartbreak that season blowing a 2-0 lead.

Haha. Excellent point! With that said, it was kinda sad that they allowed for that in the playoffs. If Harden had that whistle during the playoffs he would be the GOAT today.

I'm just messing with you, you guys were amazing that year and to this day I say Dirk was the toughest guy we ever faced. 2011 probably felt for you like 2014 felt for us. Revenge tours are the greatest. Even our 2014 team still got pushed harder by you than anyone else that season!

[Ritzo]

Blowing out a 3-1 lead

[Hoop Hunter]

Haliburton's torn ACL on the game 7 of the Finals.

No one will ever convince me that we would not have won, never ever.