SAC - UTA (Markkanen for Sabonis)

[sackings916]

Great trade for Sac, but no reason for Utah to do it. Utah is trying to build the right way. A player like Sabonis is the antithesis of that. Sabonis is the guy you want on a 38-42 win team, who exists to sell false hope to fans. He's not a guy you start on a contender.

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

The false narratives are wild

[One_and_Done]

Great trade for Sac, but no reason for Utah to do it. Utah is trying to build the right way. A player like Sabonis is the antithesis of that. Sabonis is the guy you want on a 38-42 win team, who exists to sell false hope to fans. He's not a guy you start on a contender.

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

[babyjax13]

Great trade for Sac, but no reason for Utah to do it. Utah is trying to build the right way. A player like Sabonis is the antithesis of that. Sabonis is the guy you want on a 38-42 win team, who exists to sell false hope to fans. He's not a guy you start on a contender.

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

I'm note sure you can't build a contender with him as *a* core piece, but him as the best player? Definitely not. I think if Houston is a contender and you replaced Sengun with Sabonis they probably still would be? Or if you added him as the third best player in Boston next to Tatum and Brown?

[One_and_Done]

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

I'm note sure you can't build a contender with him as *a* core piece, but him as the best player? Definitely not. I think if Houston is a contender and you replaced Sengun with Sabonis they probably still would be? Or if you added him as the third best player in Boston next to Tatum and Brown?

He wouldn't start on the 2024 Celtics. Horford/Zinger are better fits with their D and 3pt shooting.

[sackings916]

Great trade for Sac, but no reason for Utah to do it. Utah is trying to build the right way. A player like Sabonis is the antithesis of that. Sabonis is the guy you want on a 38-42 win team, who exists to sell false hope to fans. He's not a guy you start on a contender.

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

[BK_2020]

Great trade for Sac, but no reason for Utah to do it. Utah is trying to build the right way. A player like Sabonis is the antithesis of that. Sabonis is the guy you want on a 38-42 win team, who exists to sell false hope to fans. He's not a guy you start on a contender.

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

He played 20 mpg and started 66 games in his first season. I don't know what your definition of a "bit player" is but Sabonis played a significant role on that 2017 Thunder team that won 47 games.
The next two seasons, he was a 24 mpg player, again a significant role.
And I don't know what point you want to make by pointing out he was not a starter when his teams thrived, because his teams mostly thrived when he was a starter or when he was the focal point of their offense. His regular season on/off has been stellar minus a couple bleeps.
Arguably, his limitations show up when he gets to the playoffs and teams can plan against him, and we did see this happen in 23, but we are talking about a 7 game, 1 series sample. For all we know, Draymond and the Dubs were just a horrible matchup for him, or the Kings were poorly built with zero counters.
And if you are looking purely at team record as the barometer of a player's impact, then go look at Laurie's team success.

[One_and_Done]

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

[sackings916]

In his 9 seasons Sabonis's teams have won 45 or more games 6 times.

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

He played 20 mpg and started 66 games in his first season. I don't know what your definition of a "bit player" is but Sabonis played a significant role on that 2017 Thunder team that won 47 games.
The next two seasons, he was a 24 mpg player, again a significant role.
And I don't know what point you want to make by pointing out he was not a starter when his teams thrived, because his teams mostly thrived when he was a starter or when he was the focal point of their offense. His regular season on/off has been stellar minus a couple bleeps.
Arguably, his limitations show up when he gets to the playoffs and teams can plan against him, and we did see this happen in 23, but we are talking about a 7 game, 1 series sample. For all we know, Draymond and the Dubs were just a horrible matchup for him, or the Kings were poorly built with zero counters.
And if you are looking purely at team record as the barometer of a player's impact, then go look at Laurie's team success.

In 23 Sabonis put up 16, 11 and 5 going against primarily one of the GOAT defenders in Draymond. Not great but not terrible. And what the numbers don’t show, is that the Warriors gameplan and focus was to cut off Sabonis as the hub and playmaker. So if you look at the numbers it shows Sabonis as mediocre and Fox and Monk had great series, but that’s because the Warriors were keyed in on stopping Sabonis thus opening things up for Fox and Monk.

[BK_2020]

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

If Sabonis makes good players worse, then how come his teams play better when he's on the floor? He's not a 90th+ percentile on/off demon like Gobert or Jokic but he's regularly in the high 70s or 80s. If you value Lauri over him that's fine with me. I just think it's hyperbole to say he's a guy who ceiling-caps your team at 37 wins.

[One_and_Done]

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

If Sabonis makes good players worse, then how come his teams play better when he's on the floor? He's not a 90th+ percentile on/off demon like Gobert or Jokic but he's regularly in the high 70s or 80s. If you value Lauri over him that's fine with me. I just think it's hyperbole to say he's a guy who ceiling-caps your team at 37 wins.

He ceiling caps you as a mid 40s team, but more likely you're fighting for the play in. No would be contender should aspire to get such a player.

[sackings916]

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

The numbers literally show the opposite if every point you made on this post. Even the closest one that he can’t play D all the advanced metrics paint him as about average defensively. He can’t shoot 3s is an outdated false narrative as he shot 41% from 3 last year. Yes on lower volume but teams aren’t leaving him open from 3 anymore.

Also you didn’t answer the question - are the Thunder not contenders anymore with Sabonis starting next to SGA, Chet, J Will and Dort?

[babyjax13]

And in the first season Sabonis was a bit player, and in the next 2 he was a bench player. For the seasons where his role was large, or his prime seasons, his teams won 45, 34, 25, 48, 46, and 40 games. You can't build a contender with Sabonis as a core piece.

I'm note sure you can't build a contender with him as *a* core piece, but him as the best player? Definitely not. I think if Houston is a contender and you replaced Sengun with Sabonis they probably still would be? Or if you added him as the third best player in Boston next to Tatum and Brown?

He wouldn't start on the 2024 Celtics. Horford/Zinger are better fits with their D and 3pt shooting.

I think he would easily start over Horford. I won't argue that there *could* be better fits, but he also opens up some fun offensive options with his passing. If the Celtics added him next year with Brown and Tatum, that would be a dangerous team. He also isn't on a full max. I think some team could see him as an awesome second or third best player depending on the composition of their roster. But your central point that he is a difficult fit on most contenders - yes, totally agree.

[One_and_Done]

And who were the best players Sabonis played with on all those teams? Are you saying if he’s starting with SGA and Chet they’re not contenders anymore?

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

The numbers literally show the opposite if every point you made on this post. Even the closest one that he can’t play D all the advanced metrics paint him as about average defensively. He can’t shoot 3s is an outdated false narrative as he shot 41% from 3 last year. Yes on lower volume but teams aren’t leaving him open from 3 anymore.

Also you didn’t answer the question - are the Thunder not contenders anymore with Sabonis starting next to SGA, Chet, J Will and Dort?

They wouldn't start him, so them being contenders wouldn't have much to do with their 7th man.

[One_and_Done]

I'm note sure you can't build a contender with him as *a* core piece, but him as the best player? Definitely not. I think if Houston is a contender and you replaced Sengun with Sabonis they probably still would be? Or if you added him as the third best player in Boston next to Tatum and Brown?

He wouldn't start on the 2024 Celtics. Horford/Zinger are better fits with their D and 3pt shooting.

I think he would easily start over Horford. I won't argue that there *could* be better fits, but he also opens up some fun offensive options with his passing. If the Celtics added him next year with Brown and Tatum, that would be a dangerous team. He also isn't on a full max. I think some team could see him as an awesome second or third best player depending on the composition of their roster. But your central point that he is a difficult fit on most contenders - yes, totally agree.

There is zero chance he's starts over Horford on the 24 Celtics. Zero. Horford's D is extremely underrated, and he is a good 3pt shooter.

[BK_2020]

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

If Sabonis makes good players worse, then how come his teams play better when he's on the floor? He's not a 90th+ percentile on/off demon like Gobert or Jokic but he's regularly in the high 70s or 80s. If you value Lauri over him that's fine with me. I just think it's hyperbole to say he's a guy who ceiling-caps your team at 37 wins.

He ceiling caps you as a mid 40s team, but more likely you're fighting for the play in. No would be contender should aspire to get such a player.

Not sure if we have the data for that. He took a really weak Sacramento team to 48 wins, 2.3 SRS (8th in the league), and 3rd seed in the West. That's a team that had rookie Keegan Murray playing 30 mpg and Chimizie Metu as their backup center. Harrison Barnes was literally their 3rd best player. Next season the Kings won 46 games, had 2.29 SRS (13th in the league), and missed the playoffs. Being in the West is suffering.
Basically I think the ceiling talk is kinda silly. It's not like you add Sabonis to the 2025 Thunder and they suddenly can't win more than 45 games. Chances are, they'll do even better. It's like saying Kevin Love caps teams to a 30 win ceiling because that's what his teams did when he had to carry them. If a team can add him at his salary but still feature two or three players better than him, then that'll be imo a dangerous team

[sackings916]

That's the thing; he often makes good players worse, because he stuffs up the scheme. That's why contenders don't want him, much like how the Thunder got better after moving Giddey. Giddey put up 'numbers' on the Bulls, but they were almost as empty as Sabonis's stats.

Sabonis is a 4 who has to play 5, and can't shoot 3s or play D. That's not a skillset you want starting on a contender. For all that Lauri has gotten overrated, his skillset would be much more useful on teams like OKC.

The numbers literally show the opposite if every point you made on this post. Even the closest one that he can’t play D all the advanced metrics paint him as about average defensively. He can’t shoot 3s is an outdated false narrative as he shot 41% from 3 last year. Yes on lower volume but teams aren’t leaving him open from 3 anymore.

Also you didn’t answer the question - are the Thunder not contenders anymore with Sabonis starting next to SGA, Chet, J Will and Dort?

They wouldn't start him, so them being contenders wouldn't have much to do with their 7th man.

Inaccurate and outdated false narratives. Every advanced metric paint Sabonis as one of the most impactful players in the entire league. You have no evidence to support your claims.

[One_and_Done]

If Sabonis makes good players worse, then how come his teams play better when he's on the floor? He's not a 90th+ percentile on/off demon like Gobert or Jokic but he's regularly in the high 70s or 80s. If you value Lauri over him that's fine with me. I just think it's hyperbole to say he's a guy who ceiling-caps your team at 37 wins.

He ceiling caps you as a mid 40s team, but more likely you're fighting for the play in. No would be contender should aspire to get such a player.

Not sure if we have the data for that. He took a really weak Sacramento team to 48 wins, 2.3 SRS (8th in the league), and 3rd seed in the West. That's a team that had rookie Keegan Murray playing 30 mpg and Chimizie Metu as their backup center. Harrison Barnes was literally their 3rd best player. Next season the Kings won 46 games, had 2.29 SRS (13th in the league), and missed the playoffs. Being in the West is suffering.
Basically I think the ceiling talk is kinda silly. It's not like you add Sabonis to the 2025 Thunder and they suddenly can't win more than 45 games. Chances are, they'll do even better. It's like saying Kevin Love caps teams to a 30 win ceiling because that's what his teams did when he had to carry them. If a team can add him at his salary but still feature two or three players better than him, then that'll be imo a dangerous team

The 48 win team in 2023 is probably pushing the limits of what a Sabonis team can achieve. I don't think Sabonis was even the best player on that team, Fox was, and I don't really care if advanced/impact stats don't agree.

I would hardly call that a weak team either. Fox was an all-star and made the 3rd all-NBA team that year, Barnes had a great year and was a clearly above average starter. Huerter was a bit overrated at the time, but before all the injuries he was still a solid starter. Monk was a great 6th man. The only thing to squint at is Keegan, but his rookie year was actually his best season so far. He regressed since then, and regressed Keegan just got a $140 mill contract. I think calling that team bad is a bit ridiculous.

The Thunder would win despite prime Love or Sabonis getting minutes, not because of it, just like with Giddey. All 3 would be bench players for this year's Thunder team at any rate.

[sackings916]

He ceiling caps you as a mid 40s team, but more likely you're fighting for the play in. No would be contender should aspire to get such a player.

Not sure if we have the data for that. He took a really weak Sacramento team to 48 wins, 2.3 SRS (8th in the league), and 3rd seed in the West. That's a team that had rookie Keegan Murray playing 30 mpg and Chimizie Metu as their backup center. Harrison Barnes was literally their 3rd best player. Next season the Kings won 46 games, had 2.29 SRS (13th in the league), and missed the playoffs. Being in the West is suffering.
Basically I think the ceiling talk is kinda silly. It's not like you add Sabonis to the 2025 Thunder and they suddenly can't win more than 45 games. Chances are, they'll do even better. It's like saying Kevin Love caps teams to a 30 win ceiling because that's what his teams did when he had to carry them. If a team can add him at his salary but still feature two or three players better than him, then that'll be imo a dangerous team

The 48 win team in 2023 is probably pushing the limits of what a Sabonis team can achieve. I don't think Sabonis was even the best player on that team, Fox was, and I don't really care if advanced/impact stats don't agree.

I would hardly call that a weak team either. Fox was an all-star and made the 3rd all-NBA team that year, Barnes had a great year and was a clearly above average starter. Huerter was a bit overrated at the time, but before all the injuries he was still a solid starter. Monk was a great 6th man. The only thing to squint at is Keegan, but his rookie year was actually his best season so far. He regressed since then, and regressed Keegan just got a $140 mill contract. I think calling that team bad is a bit ridiculous.

The Thunder would win despite prime Love or Sabonis getting minutes, not because of it, just like with Giddey. All 3 would be bench players for this year's Thunder team at any rate.

That 2023 Kings team was about average to slightly above average because that’s roughly the ceiling of a team when your two best players are Fox and Sabonis. If you replaced Fox with a legitimate MVP-caliber or 1st-team All-NBA guy like SGA, that team would instantly be a contender. Saying Sabonis caps your team’s ceiling is ridiculous - what’s more accurate is that Sabonis as your best player caps your ceiling.

[One_and_Done]

Not sure if we have the data for that. He took a really weak Sacramento team to 48 wins, 2.3 SRS (8th in the league), and 3rd seed in the West. That's a team that had rookie Keegan Murray playing 30 mpg and Chimizie Metu as their backup center. Harrison Barnes was literally their 3rd best player. Next season the Kings won 46 games, had 2.29 SRS (13th in the league), and missed the playoffs. Being in the West is suffering.
Basically I think the ceiling talk is kinda silly. It's not like you add Sabonis to the 2025 Thunder and they suddenly can't win more than 45 games. Chances are, they'll do even better. It's like saying Kevin Love caps teams to a 30 win ceiling because that's what his teams did when he had to carry them. If a team can add him at his salary but still feature two or three players better than him, then that'll be imo a dangerous team

The 48 win team in 2023 is probably pushing the limits of what a Sabonis team can achieve. I don't think Sabonis was even the best player on that team, Fox was, and I don't really care if advanced/impact stats don't agree.

I would hardly call that a weak team either. Fox was an all-star and made the 3rd all-NBA team that year, Barnes had a great year and was a clearly above average starter. Huerter was a bit overrated at the time, but before all the injuries he was still a solid starter. Monk was a great 6th man. The only thing to squint at is Keegan, but his rookie year was actually his best season so far. He regressed since then, and regressed Keegan just got a $140 mill contract. I think calling that team bad is a bit ridiculous.

The Thunder would win despite prime Love or Sabonis getting minutes, not because of it, just like with Giddey. All 3 would be bench players for this year's Thunder team at any rate.

That 2023 Kings team was about average to slightly above average because that’s roughly the ceiling of a team when your two best players are Fox and Sabonis. If you replaced Fox with a legitimate MVP-caliber or 1st-team All-NBA guy like SGA, that team would instantly be a contender. Saying Sabonis caps your team’s ceiling is ridiculous - what’s more accurate is that Sabonis as your best player caps your ceiling.

Sabonis next to SGA is worse for SGA than just starting Chet and Hartenstein next to him, and subbing in Caruso/Cason for heavy minutes. Sabonis doesn't fit at all next to him. You need role players that fit around stars, not fake stars whose style of play will distort your scheme.

[sackings916]

The 48 win team in 2023 is probably pushing the limits of what a Sabonis team can achieve. I don't think Sabonis was even the best player on that team, Fox was, and I don't really care if advanced/impact stats don't agree.

I would hardly call that a weak team either. Fox was an all-star and made the 3rd all-NBA team that year, Barnes had a great year and was a clearly above average starter. Huerter was a bit overrated at the time, but before all the injuries he was still a solid starter. Monk was a great 6th man. The only thing to squint at is Keegan, but his rookie year was actually his best season so far. He regressed since then, and regressed Keegan just got a $140 mill contract. I think calling that team bad is a bit ridiculous.

The Thunder would win despite prime Love or Sabonis getting minutes, not because of it, just like with Giddey. All 3 would be bench players for this year's Thunder team at any rate.

That 2023 Kings team was about average to slightly above average because that’s roughly the ceiling of a team when your two best players are Fox and Sabonis. If you replaced Fox with a legitimate MVP-caliber or 1st-team All-NBA guy like SGA, that team would instantly be a contender. Saying Sabonis caps your team’s ceiling is ridiculous - what’s more accurate is that Sabonis as your best player caps your ceiling.

Sabonis next to SGA is worse for SGA than just starting Chet and Hartenstein next to him, and subbing in Caruso/Cason for heavy minutes. Sabonis doesn't fit at all next to him. You need role players that fit around stars, not fake stars whose style of play will distort your scheme.

How did you come to the conclusion that Sabonis doesn’t fit with SGA?