Crazy Take-Kidd over Magic

[penbeast0]

Nobody is saying Kidd is as good an offensive player as Nash or Magic. Or even remotely close. Of course they are better overall playmakers.

The argument was about whether or not his assists are just system related which could not be more false. This idea that you have to be Steve Nash or Magic Johnson or you are just getting assists by following a set play is silly and reductive.

Go watch some Kidd film. And watch a lot of it. I know I didn't fully appreciate him until he was a Mav and I saw him every night. I was like oh this is why the team traded Harris and multiple firsts for him at this point in his career. There are levels and Kidd's is so high.

I saw Kidd a lot (more in New Jersey prime than in his Dallas or Phoenix years) and he was a great player. But his playmaking, particularly in the half court, was never at the level of his top playmaking peers like Nash or Stockton. More the Mark Jackson/Andre Miller level of playmaking (which is still pretty good darn good). He gave you rebounding and size that neither of the top two ever did, but was significantly worse at running an offense. Enough worse that I would think that even if he could shoot at the level of a Steve Nash or John Stockton, I believe he still wouldn't be able to run as strong an offense given the same level of offensive talent around him.

Sticking to players who could be considered peers rather than looking at Magic or Doncic to make the comparisons more apples to apples.

[threethehardway]

This is just fundamentally false. I think you raise some valid points regarding his lack of threat as a scorer limiting what he can do, but Kidd was not just throwing the ball to Shaq or Karl Malone and collecting assists. And he's probably the best extra pass guy in NBA history which isn't as fun a full length bounce pass or a lob to STAT, but really really effective and while it seems simple, not just anyone was doing it at Kidd's level.

Kidd has extraordinary vision and one of the highest IQ players of all-time. He was regularly finding passes nobody else was finding. He just was Tom Brady like or Greg Maddux like. He put the ball exactly where it needed to be time and again and he didn't feel the need to put Luka or Magic flair on it just to do it.

No. I am saying that Kidd could not manipulate defenses like a Luka or a Nash and get into the teeth of a defense, thus, he can't create opportunities the same way Luka or a Nash.

Lonzo has great vision too, doesn't mean he isn't limited by his own lack scoring aggression.

Rondo also had great vision but couldn't threatened the defense on a consistent basis.

Lonzo's assists are full-court through ahead passes that are a product of great anticipation.

Rondo's assists are the product of running an offense and play calling.

Point is Jason Kidd can't make the passes that Nash and Luka make but it doesn't mean he is lesser.

If he can't do some positive things that the others can, it DOES mean he is lesser (at creating opportunities) unless there is some area of this skillset that he is better at than Nash or Doncic. What did Kidd do in terms of creating opportunities that is better than what Nash could do?

Kidd's primary value was turning defense into offense. Most of Kidd's razzle dazzle happened on the break by generating TO.

In the the half court Kidd is nothing special. He runs the offense, occasionally makes a nice pass that nobody would see coming.

But on the break, Kidd was a terror.

My whole point about passing is that we need to take into account the fact that all assists are not created equal and passing is a tertiary ability that is a function of the ability to run the break, create turnovers, score, and athleticism.

Luka can't push the break like Kidd. Nash couldn't"t generate TOs like Kidd.

Kidd's ability to play defense and he generate TOs meant that his teams could play fast with middling offenses at his peak. No real shooting threats or anything. Nothing is spaced out.

That's his good his fast break ability was. It was the equivalent of Curry being so good at shooting, he can play with 4 non-shooters and have a respectable offense .

Of course, I would take the Luka's, Magic" s, LeBron"s of the world over a player like Kidd because scoring is the most important thing for a primary ball handler.

I rather have a player's vision needing to be improved upon than their scoring aggression. Players like Donovan Mitchell and Devin Booker can age into being a PG if necessary, you never see a player start off with weak scoring ability into a bonafide scorer.

Donovan Mitchell can get me 8 assists a game, can Kidd get me 25 points.

[penbeast0]

No. I am saying that Kidd could not manipulate defenses like a Luka or a Nash and get into the teeth of a defense, thus, he can't create opportunities the same way Luka or a Nash.

Lonzo has great vision too, doesn't mean he isn't limited by his own lack scoring aggression.

Rondo also had great vision but couldn't threatened the defense on a consistent basis.

Lonzo's assists are full-court through ahead passes that are a product of great anticipation.

Rondo's assists are the product of running an offense and play calling.

Point is Jason Kidd can't make the passes that Nash and Luka make but it doesn't mean he is lesser.

If he can't do some positive things that the others can, it DOES mean he is lesser (at creating opportunities) unless there is some area of this skillset that he is better at than Nash or Doncic. What did Kidd do in terms of creating opportunities that is better than what Nash could do?

Kidd's primary value was turning defense into offense. Most of Kidd's razzle dazzle happened on the break by generating TO.

In the the half court Kidd is nothing special. He runs the offense, occasionally makes a nice pass that nobody would see coming.

But on the break, Kidd was a terror.

My whole point about passing is that we need to take into account the fact that all assists are not created equal and passing is a tertiary ability that is a function of the ability to run the break, create turnovers, score, and athleticism.

Luka can't push the break like Kidd. Nash couldn't"t generate TOs like Kidd.

Kidd's ability to play defense and he generate TOs meant that his teams could play fast with middling offenses at his peak. No real shooting threats or anything. Nothing is spaced out.

That's his good his fast break ability was. It was the equivalent of Curry being so good at shooting, he can play with 4 non-shooters and have a respectable offense .

Of course, I would take the Luka's, Magic" s, LeBron"s of the world over a player like Kidd because scoring is the most important thing for a primary ball handler.

I rather have a player's vision needing to be improved upon than their scoring aggression. Players like Donovan Mitchell and Devin Booker can age into being a PG if necessary, you never see a player start off with weak scoring ability into a bonafide scorer.

Donovan Mitchell can get me 8 assists a game, can Kidd get me 25 points.

Don't say never; Gary Payton for example was considered a non-scoring point for his 1st two years in the league but became a consistent threat to score 20 a game for a decade. And it is rare for a player to develop any skill they didn't have in their first two years in the NBA into one of the best in the league.

And give Kidd an Iverson in 2001 team where they ask him to score 25 and don't care about efficiency and he could give it to you.