Update: It is time to trade Scottie Barnes before it's too late!

[Troubadour]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Looking back on it, the ideal situation would have been to keep Norman Powell and select Sengun.

VanVleet / Powell / Anunoby / Siakam / Sengun would be a very good team.

[Appostis]

Some of you still blaming his lack of progress on roster construction

We’re also not getting Giannis for him. The only “star” we’d likely get back are the likes of Zach Lavine. Someone who’s overpaid and seen as a losing player.

Yeah because who would ever think the "team" would impact in a "team" sport.

Crazy idea.

[lolwut]

Some of you still blaming his lack of progress on roster construction

We’re also not getting Giannis for him. The only “star” we’d likely get back are the likes of Zach Lavine. Someone who’s overpaid and seen as a losing player.

Yeah because who would ever think the "team" would impact in a "team" sport.

Crazy idea.

I think the issue is that he's shown little progress in areas that are independent from team success, such as jumpshooting. He's tossing up complete bricks on wide open shots, and there's nothing more his teammates can do to help him with those.

[tsherkin]

Some of you still blaming his lack of progress on roster construction

We’re also not getting Giannis for him. The only “star” we’d likely get back are the likes of Zach Lavine. Someone who’s overpaid and seen as a losing player.

Yeah because who would ever think the "team" would impact in a "team" sport.

Crazy idea.

It is a little crazy to suggest that team context is what's separating Scottie from being a competent scorer. He could look better than he does in a very specifically-tailored role, I'm sure, but it's been clear since before he even hit the NBA that it was never going to be a strength of his. Beyond that, he plays pretty well, which is also pretty consistent. His D, his rebounding, his passing at size? Those are all known pre-draft quantities, and he is reasonably consistent with those. But he can't shoot, he isn't an elite athlete and he doesn't have an elite handle, so there are major limitations to what he can do as a scorer, and those will always be heavy limitations on his game.

The problem is more the role and expectations the franchise is putting on him than anything else. He is being given too many shots and too much responsibility to create. He doesn't have the tools to make that a viable strategy.

[Boogie!]

Some of you still blaming his lack of progress on roster construction

We’re also not getting Giannis for him. The only “star” we’d likely get back are the likes of Zach Lavine. Someone who’s overpaid and seen as a losing player.

Yeah because who would ever think the "team" would impact in a "team" sport.

Crazy idea.

It is a little crazy to suggest that team context is what's separating Scottie from being a competent scorer. He could look better than he does in a very specifically-tailored role, I'm sure, but it's been clear since before he even hit the NBA that it was never going to be a strength of his. Beyond that, he plays pretty well, which is also pretty consistent. His D, his rebounding, his passing at size? Those are all known pre-draft quantities, and he is reasonably consistent with those. But he can't shoot, he isn't an elite athlete and he doesn't have an elite handle, so there are major limitations to what he can do as a scorer, and those will always be heavy limitations on his game.

The problem is more the role and expectations the franchise is putting on him than anything else. He is being given too many shots and too much responsibility to create. He doesn't have the tools to make that a viable strategy.

They declared him the franchise and paid him based on the potential the he was to become competent in all the things he still can’t and may never be able to do. That’s the problem right now. And you have an entire fanbase that’s still brainwashed to think the same way about him.

Things would be completely different if the organization accepted who he was and presented him accordingly. Instead there was this whole agenda To build around him and get rid of everyone that got in the way of that, including the actual star at the time, siakam. Kind of makes the resentment for Scottie and the organization stronger.

[ConSarnit]

At least the pg talks have finally ended lol.

This board is going to get really interesting if he and raptors start off slow.

If by "interesting" you mean "insufferably reactionary" then yes.

Like do none of you remember when Siakam - a more seasoned NBA player - struggled in the 2023/24 season adapting to a new role? It's not easy and it doesn't help when 3 of your 4 years in the league have been marked by an understated level of turnover for the roster.

Scottie and Poeltl being the most tenured players (Jakob if you count non-consecutive, Scottie if you only count consecutive) is a testament to how frustrating the teambuilding has been for the past two years in terms of both complimentary talent & asset use. And I say this as someone who's high on guys like Dick & Walter's ability to space the floor next to Scottie.

What are you talking about with Siakam struggling? Prior to ‘23/24 he was already our #1 option for 2 straight years. In ‘23/24 he put up 22/6/5 on 60% TS with us.

We asked Siakam to do more creating and he did fine given our lack of other creators. He was never cut out to be a 1st option but his numbers didn’t suffer. Without Siakam on the floor our numbers cratered every year.

We asked Siakam to do more. We’re asking Barnes to do less and he looks just as bad as ever (scoring-wise) this preseason. It’s not an apt comparison.

[LarSiN]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

[ConSarnit]

Some of you still blaming his lack of progress on roster construction

We’re also not getting Giannis for him. The only “star” we’d likely get back are the likes of Zach Lavine. Someone who’s overpaid and seen as a losing player.

Yeah because who would ever think the "team" would impact in a "team" sport.

Crazy idea.

I think the issue is that he's shown little progress in areas that are independent from team success, such as jumpshooting. He's tossing up complete bricks on wide open shots, and there's nothing more his teammates can do to help him with those.

There were 190 players who took > 2 wide open 3PA last year. Barnes was 182nd in fg%. His teammates can’t do much to help him make wide open shots.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I trust my eye test and he doesn’t look like someone who is confident with the ball in the half court. His help defense and transition passing is excellent but his role on this team looks more like a super charged role player than a 25% of the cap guy.

I was giving him grace but were in year 5 and he still doesn’t have a handle on how he can be an efficient scorer in the league. Getting putbacks and transition stuff is cool but that’s not enough if the goal is to be an eventual playoff riser as a team and that type of offense isn’t resilient in the playoffs.

Scottie would have to turn into a Gobert level defensive playmaker to make his contract worth it the way he’s trending. What he brings offensively won’t be enough if he’s going to be featured this much and take up as much of our cap space as he is. Transition playmaking can’t be the only premium skill

[Anticon]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

Certainly the ROY award will help offset the impact of paying 50 million a year and rebuilding the roster around a guy shooting 20%.

The point is that they made a commitment to a flawed player and may have lost half a decade of team building as a result.

[billy_hoyle]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

Certainly the ROY award will help offset the impact of paying 50 million a year and rebuilding the roster around a guy shooting 20%.

The point is that they made a commitment to a flawed player and may have lost half a decade of team building as a result.

Bargnani was the ROY runner-up, and was 3rd in Center balloting for an All-star team in his 3 or 4th season.

Bargs had high potential and alot of people on this board thought he could be a star in the early years. He regressed. Let's hope Barnes improves. The comparison isn't that crazy IMO.

I wouldn't read too much into pre-season numbers.

[Basketball_Jones]

I know CMB is supposed to be Draymond but Scottie suits that role way better

[TheGeneral99]

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

Certainly the ROY award will help offset the impact of paying 50 million a year and rebuilding the roster around a guy shooting 20%.

The point is that they made a commitment to a flawed player and may have lost half a decade of team building as a result.

Bargnani was the ROY runner-up, and was 3rd in Center balloting for an All-star team in his 3 or 4th season.

Bargs had high potential and alot of people on this board thought he could be a star in the early years. He regressed. Let's hope Barnes improves. The comparison isn't that crazy IMO.

I wouldn't read too much into pre-season numbers.

Bargnani was always atrocious defensively and a horrendously poor rebounder for his size. Yeah he was okay his first 2 years because he was used more as a role player behind bigs like Bosh and Rasho.

When Bosh left, his scoring output went up simply due to higher volume, but he had almost zero impact on winning. We won 20, 22 and 23 games with Bargnani at the helm in a weak Eastern Conference between 2010 and 2012. You look at every advanced stat during that period and Bargnani was terrible. It was actually Amir Johnson and Jose that led the team in WS, VORP and RPM in those years. Even in terms of scoring Bargnani was overrated. He was skilled, but didn't use his body properly, wasn't aggressive, and didn't shoot that well from deep for a guy known as a "shooter."

His best statistical season was in 2011 where he averaged 21ppg and 5rpg on 44%fg and 35%3fg...not very good for a 7 footer that is so bad defensively.

[Troubadour]

Maybe it's unfair to Scottie Barnes, but it seems like unlikely to me that knee tendinitis would have just suddenly appeared after he no-showed the preseason.

If he's injured, why is he playing? Because it seems like any time he has a poor run of form, he has something wrong with a hand, an ankle, a finger, a knee or something that is supposed to make us forget everything. Playing through injury during the season is one thing, but it seems ridiculous for the pre-season.

[raptor jesus]

I don't really care about Scottie's lack of development as a scorer and shooter. Those aspirations were always pipe dreams - he came into the league as a poor-shooting role player. What I am disappointed in is his inconsistent motor and terrible shot selection because he was supposed to be a high-energy, intelligent player.

[LarSiN]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

Certainly the ROY award will help offset the impact of paying 50 million a year and rebuilding the roster around a guy shooting 20%.

The point is that they made a commitment to a flawed player and may have lost half a decade of team building as a result.

"The point is, I'm overreacting to preseason & comparing completely unrelated players for shock value"

[YogurtProducer]

I don't really care about Scottie's lack of development as a scorer and shooter. Those aspirations were always pipe dreams - he came into the league as a poor-shooting role player. What I am disappointed in is his inconsistent motor and terrible shot selection because he was supposed to be a high-energy, intelligent player.

This is true. Even if Scottie figured it out scoring wise, his value isn't that great anyways if he is mentally checked out for 75% of the game.

[anotherhomer]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Looking back on it, the ideal situation would have been to keep Norman Powell and select Sengun.

VanVleet / Powell / Anunoby / Siakam / Sengun would be a very good team.

the correct move, yes was keeping powell, selecting barnes but trading him after year 1.

[TheGeneral99]

I'm trying to look on the bright side here but this is a thread from 2013 on Lowry - it's really amazing.

viewtopic.php?p=37821742

agree with the OP's diagnosis. Lowry is very unsure of his passing ability, especially passing forward. He's a poor pick and roll PG, one of the worst I have ever seen. Last night, he bounced a pass to a rolling Jonas but the pass was slow and late, and the play busted. However, Lowry yelled and gestured angrily at Jonas, when as I saw it, the pass was bad. Lowry should be a high end backup on a contender, a role in which he'd be perfect. On a developing team, he's a bad influence, and on a Casey developing team where there is too little offensive structure, he's downright counter-productive at times.

KL is not a good PG against set defences, not at all. I agree that he's not an accurate lead passer, particularly while on the move, and his entry passes aren't great. I wonder if he can see over the D. He needs to be used like a 3rd option, to have the ball kicked and reversed to him or to attack on the secondary break. He's good at making good, aggressive, quick decisions against scrambling Ds but he's the wrong guard for us because we rarely break, period (except, of course, when Rudy goes coast to almost coast), we don't have a pivot to play through (yet) and we don't have a wing to run PnR.

Lowry not that good. He's an average point guard. But Felton is a below average point guard and beno and Pablo are only good for coming off the bench

[canada_dry]

Did the Raptors jumping positions in the draft in 2021 set the franchise back by 5 years? Seems possible if Barnes continues on this route.

Bargnani part 2 scenario.

Ah yes, notorious ROY + All Star Andrea Bargnani, totally rational comparison ...

No he didn't win ROY or become an all star but bargnani also looked very promising his first 2-3 years and then...

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