Position battle: PWill, Terry, Phillips, Noa

[sco]

So wanted to debate this a bit. There will be minutes to be fought for between:

PWill - best 3pt shooter, decent defender, under long contract, low motor, low BBIQ
Terry - below average shooter, best defender, hard worker, RFA next season
Phillips - below average shooter, good defender, most athletic, Club option next season
Noa - worst shooter, good defender, best length, Rookie

You could make a case for any of them to get the most minutes at backup 3/4. If you could pick the you think SHOULD get the largest number of minutes TO START THE SEASON (because stuff will change after the deadline), who do you pick?

[League Circles]

Patrick easily. And although I also see him in competition with okoro and Huerter and even Ayo for minutes.

Terry and Phillips are marginal talents on expiring contracts. It's Noa vs Patrick to me.

[Red Larrivee]

Not even close. Pat will and should play more. Terry and Phillips are end of bench plays. Essengue is clearly not ready for a regular role to start the season

[WindyCityBorn]

Definitely not Noa.

[Evil_Headband]

Noa isn't ready. I think Phillips may have the most long term potential of the remaining three so I went with him. Billy likes him too for what it's worth.

[League Circles]

How good would Phillips and/or Terry have to be this season in order for you guys to want to try to re-sign them to a multi year contract?

For me, the clear answer is WAY, WAY better than they've ever been. Nothing against them. I actually like both guys and think they have chances to be long term nba players (or out of the league after their current deals). I just don't see room for them on a team as mediocre as ours considering we have all these guys signed at least for the next two years:

Smith
Essengue
Patrick
Giddey
Okoro

When your team isn't great, IMO it's straightforward that you should try to replace meaningless, expiring contract players with other, hopefully much better guys, whether those are your subsequent draft picks, free agents, or trade targets.

Patrick obviously is just in a totally different universe because he's here for 4 more years. Gotta make it work for him to be a rotation player IMO. Burying an 18 million dollar annual deal on a team without a superstar is just too much of an obstacle to overcome. Unless we got super lucky and had like two second round picks that were super ready to go as backup forwards for 4 years on near league minimum contracts, like what we would have hoped for from Phillips and if Ayo had been on his original deal for 4 years. This is unlikely, which means Patrick must be salvaged.

[ghostinthepost1]

I've seen Noa make more of a positive impact this preseason than Pat did all of last year.

[sco]

Noa isn't ready. I think Phillips may have the most long term potential of the remaining three so I went with him. Billy likes him too for what it's worth.

I think Phillips provides the best mix of complementary skills/abilities right now, so I went with him too.

I understand the logic behind going with Pat, but IMO, his contract is a sunk cost. If he was marginally tradeable, I might think differently. Go with the BPA to start the season.

I have to admit liking Terry. He's become a very disruptive defender. He's a hard worker too. That said, his lack of a consistent 3pt shot and limited ability to finish at the rim, gives me pause.

[Evil_Headband]

Terry is at a disadvantage since he's less of a 4 than the others. With Tre and Ayo playing so well and with Billy wanting Huerter's shooting (in theory), they will take large chunks of the reserve minutes. A fight for the backup 4 seems real between Pat and Julian. Maybe Jalen will play there but I'll believe it when we see it in the regular season.

With inevitable injuries, though, all these guys will play plenty in time.

[kodo]

I'd probably go with Terry and just stop him trying to be something he isn't, he's handling the ball like Giddey or Tre with the 2nd unit. Just have him hustle, play D, and attempt corner 3s. He was 36% last season. The biggest problem with him is the team trying to justify his 18th pick by still pushing this "big PG" narrative with him. I think he's good as a pure 3&D.

If that's impossible for whatever reason, I'd rather play PWill as it seems like he's accepted his role now.

[MrSparkle]

When Terry and Phillips are in a flow, running, I like them as a 9-10 defensive punch. When they have to play against good lineups, half-court basketball… their shooting is exposed. They’re 3rd stringers. This FO wants to stack its injury reserve.

Pat’s 3Ps obviously make him first in the pecking order, but overall he’s a detriment to the team. An invisible player; wasn’t missed last night at all. Primary focus should be to get his averages up and trade him away for a near expiring. Honestly, I think even bench 8th man doesn’t suit us well, but that’s where he should be to keep the numbers up. I even preferred seeing Jalen start. But i still think Huerter should get the nod. Good offense makes the team watchable. Balancing bad offense (spacing) and exploitable defense (Vuc/Giddey) makes for -10 deficits every opening.

Noa is the best option to play (and develop) today, afaic, but it won’t happen (cause of the rookie hazing program). He has a knack for loose balls, and rim protection/rebounding is an obvious upgrade with his length.

[DuckIII]

Not even close. Pat will and should play more. Terry and Phillips are end of bench plays. Essengue is clearly not ready for a regular role to start the season

Because of how reviled Pat is by the fanbase this conversation will end up being lengthy with people attempting to find nuance and complexity. But there is none. Regardless of how frustrated and bitter Bulls fans are with Pat, two things eliminate this as a serious discussion.

1. Terry is not a NBA quality player.

2. Phillips is not a NBA quality player.

Pat, Essengue, Okoro and Huerter? That’s a lot closer to a real conversation where reasonable minds can differ.

As to the Essengue/Pat part it has to be Pat on opening night due to experience and physical preparedness. But unless something starts to finally click with Pat, it’s very easy to see Noa passing him up by January due to his length, motor and general feel.

[jnrjr79]

How good would Phillips and/or Terry have to be this season in order for you guys to want to try to re-sign them to a multi year contract?

For me, the clear answer is WAY, WAY better than they've ever been. Nothing against them. I actually like both guys and think they have chances to be long term nba players (or out of the league after their current deals). I just don't see room for them on a team as mediocre as ours considering we have all these guys signed at least for the next two years:

Smith
Essengue
Patrick
Giddey
Okoro

When your team isn't great, IMO it's straightforward that you should try to replace meaningless, expiring contract players with other, hopefully much better guys, whether those are your subsequent draft picks, free agents, or trade targets.

Patrick obviously is just in a totally different universe because he's here for 4 more years. Gotta make it work for him to be a rotation player IMO. Burying an 18 million dollar annual deal on a team without a superstar is just too much of an obstacle to overcome. Unless we got super lucky and had like two second round picks that were super ready to go as backup forwards for 4 years on near league minimum contracts, like what we would have hoped for from Phillips and if Ayo had been on his original deal for 4 years. This is unlikely, which means Patrick must be salvaged.

I'd put these guys in a "I wouldn't sign them until I've done whatever else I'm going to do with my cap space" kind of situation. Neither has yet shown me enough that I probably wouldn't prefer having space, though Phillips flashes here and there.

[dougthonus]

Not even close. Pat will and should play more. Terry and Phillips are end of bench plays. Essengue is clearly not ready for a regular role to start the season

Because of how reviled Pat is by the fanbase this conversation will end up being lengthy with people attempting to find nuance and complexity. But there is none. Regardless of how frustrated and bitter Bulls fans are with Pat, two things eliminate this as a serious discussion.

1. Terry is not a NBA quality player.

2. Phillips is not a NBA quality player.

Pat, Essengue, Okoro and Huerter? That’s a lot closer to a real conversation where reasonable minds can differ.

As to the Essengue/Pat part it has to be Pat on opening night due to experience and physical preparedness. But unless something starts to finally click with Pat, it’s very easy to see Noa passing him up by January due to his length, motor and general feel.

Generally agree with this. We should play Terry/Phillips 0 minutes by default. Huerter/Okoro to me are in their own different battle at largely a different position.

It's really Pat/Noa.

I wouldn't go quite as far as you to say it "has" to be Pat, but I'd only be quibbling semantically. I think there is a case you could make that you just play Noa even if he's not quite physically ready, because he may just make more of an impact anyway. That said, I think that's an edge case, and for all intents and purposes, you are correct.

Pat is the logical / most likely / most reasonable guy to play the most minutes out of these four players out of the gate. I also think the dislike of Pat has exceeded the likelihood of him becoming a reasonable player. Ie, if his foot is healthier, he worked out all off season, he is in better shape (all of which look true to me) that he's probably better than any of those other dudes by a good amount day one.

We're also on Pat's deal for four more years, in a "tie" scenario, we should absolutely play him over Huerter, Okoro, Ayo, Terry, or Phillips. That's not to say he's likely to be in a "tie" scenario with all those guys, but if he is, we should logically be giving him the benefit of the doubt vs guys that are expiring or have one year left on their deal.

[Evil_Headband]

Billy talked yesterday about how fluid lineups might be based on opponent matchups. I think it was mainly in context of the fifth starter and playing two bigs but I can see some of that playing into things with these guys too. With inevitable injuries, this may not end up really being much of a battle.

[GoBlue72391]

Essengue.

Pat, Terry, and Phillips have no future here, and we're talking about a relatively small role, so give it to Essengue for development purposes to get his feet wet at the NBA level.

[DuckIII]

Generally agree with this. We should play Terry/Phillips 0 minutes by default. Huerter/Okoro to me are in their own different battle at largely a different position.

It's really Pat/Noa.

Pat and Noa are definitely going to be in the most direct competition with one another to be the other starting forward with Matas. For the long term. No doubt. But I think with our roster still in flux and BD's willingness to go small, Pat, Noa, Huerter, Okoro and even Ayo will all be eating into each other's opportunities. The overlap may be partial rather than complete with some of those guys, but its still there.

I wouldn't go quite as far as you to say it "has" to be Pat, but I'd only be quibbling semantically. I think there is a case you could make that you just play Noa even if he's not quite physically ready, because he may just make more of an impact anyway. That said, I think that's an edge case, and for all intents and purposes, you are correct.

Yeah, its semantic due to imprecise word choice by me. I agree with the rest of your unquoted post. I say it "has" to be Pat on opening night because I can't imagine BD having it any other way due to Noa's experience level and frame. I'm not advocating here, I'm predicting. To your point, I could easily see and justify Noa above Pat in the rotation much earlier than January. In theory I'd have no problem with it. I badly wanted Noa in the draft, consider him a high upside player with a great profile, and hope to remain in the lottery one more season anyway.

To me this should be treated as the last developmental season of the rebuild. We still need to see what we have with a couple of guys who are gonna need contracts, and should be giving guys like Matas, Noa and even Pat plenty of space to operate and grow. Even at the expense of wins. Then we make the big decisions next summer and go from there. That's what I hope to see.

[DuckIII]

Essengue.

Pat, Terry, and Phillips have no future here, and we're talking about a relatively small role, so give it to Essengue for development purposes to get his feet wet at the NBA level.

Another flaw in the premise of this thread is that these four guys are somehow competing only with each other and not with guys like Huerter, Okoro and even Ayo. As though the minutes for those guys is a given and we're only talking about table scraps for these other four.

In my opinion that is a very shaky assumption. Unless we're just talking about preferences here, in which case anything goes. I was treating it more a prediction discussion but might have misread the OP.

[kodo]

Billy talked yesterday about how fluid lineups might be based on opponent matchups. I think it was mainly in context of the fifth starter and playing two bigs but I can see some of that playing into things with these guys too. With inevitable injuries, this may not end up really being much of a battle.

Yep. All these guys compete for the other F spot that isn't Matas/Okoro/Huerter, the actual answer here may be Jalen Smith.
I'm concerned about how bad his 3P% shooting has been in a CHI uniform though. But he grabs boards & loose balls and he's close to Buz as a shotblocker.

He obviously has huge limits because Billy wants 4 guys who can catch the ball then run that handoff P&R and he can't do that...but I'd argue Terry/Phillips/Williams try to run that and fail miserably. I'd rather have Smith not try and just dunk and hit open 3s than watch the train wreck of those 3 guys trying to run that kind of offense.

The Bulls offense pretends we have 10 guys all capable of running the point in a modern NBA offense like Indiana, we don't. We'd be better off focusing the offense on Giddey/White/Tre/Ayo.

[Red Larrivee]

Essengue.

Pat, Terry, and Phillips have no future here, and we're talking about a relatively small role, so give it to Essengue for development purposes to get his feet wet at the NBA level.

Pat just turned 24 and is under contract for four more years. He absolutely has a future here, or somewhere else. But for that to happen, he has to play better. It helps that he also fits well with the players who are the biggest parts of our future.

It's fine if Essengue doesn't play much, if at all, to start the season. He's 18 and he doesn't have a clear role yet. There's no rush.