RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[vagelis]

So, what happened with the thread about second best player of all time?

Is this so clear who he is and the thread was merged?

Why you keep open a thread with Jordan at 70% and you don't want to discuss who is the second best of all time?

[TheNG]

So, what happened with the thread about second best player of all time?

Is this so clear who he is and the thread was merged?

Why you keep open a thread with Jordan at 70% and you don't want to discuss who is the second best of all time?

Maybe you can try something like this:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2383162
So instead of asking "who is 2nd" and assuming who is the 1st, you just allow people have multiple selections.
In most polls I've seen, the battle is close, but usually Kareem is higher than LeBron btw.
Obviously, when you only allow one selection, like in the current thread, it always leads to "MJ vs LeBron" battle, which kind of distorts the answer to "who most people think is 2nd all time"...

[vagelis]

So, what happened with the thread about second best player of all time?

Is this so clear who he is and the thread was merged?

Why you keep open a thread with Jordan at 70% and you don't want to discuss who is the second best of all time?

Maybe you can try something like this:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2383162
So instead of asking "who is 2nd" and assuming who is the 1st, you just allow people have multiple selections.
In most polls I've seen, the battle is close, but usually Kareem is higher than LeBron btw.
Obviously, when you only allow one selection, like in the current thread, it always leads to "MJ vs LeBron" battle, which kind of distorts the answer to "who most people think is 2nd all time"...

But it is not assuming who is the first.
This thread about the GOAT is open for years and Jordan is always there over 65%.
The case is closed.

I have seen here poles about who is the best player currently.
Then after some days, they exclude the first from votes and open another thread about the second best.
Then they exclude the 2 first and pole for the 3d etc.

This happens every year for the current players.

So, what is different with the all time bests??
Why we continue to discuss about only the best when the difference is so big?

Who is the 2d best all time? Who is the 3d best?
Why to not discuss it?

[KayDee35]

Bill Russell is untouchable in the GOAT debate. No one will ever come close to matching his resume.

2x NCAA Champion
- Won consecutive NCAA titles
- Played at University of San Francisco which never won another title before or after Russell
- Led them to 55 consecutive wins during one stretch

Olympic Champion
- Largest average margin of victory by an Olympic team of 53.5 pts, which is almost 10 pts higher than the Dream Team's 43.8 pts margin.
- Leading scorer on the undefeated team (14.1 ppg, lol)

5x MVP
- 1 more than Wilt who won his first MVP in his rookie year

11x NBA Champion
- 11 rings in 13 seasons is something we will probably never see again!

2x Player-Coach Champion
- Coaching and playing at the same time is something we're unlikely to see ever again
- Winning two rings while filling two major roles hasn't been done by anyone else

Clutch
- 10-0 in Game 7s
- 9-0 in College Tournament games
- 2-0 in Olympic elimination games
- 1-0 in a deciding Game 5
- That makes it 22-0 in winner-take-all games

Tough
- Brought hard-nosed defense to the NBA
- Knocked a guy out stone cold because he kept taking cheap shots at Russell during a game

Kept Wilt out of the GOAT convo
- Won 5 MVPs to WIlt's 4
- Won 11 rings to Wilt's 2
- Showed that winning was about much more than simply scoring for centers. Wilt's two playoff runs that ended in a ring did not feature him as the top scorer. He was tied for 2nd (despite playing the most minutes on the team by far) during the first run and 4th during the second run.
- Wilt's 76ers were dominant. They set the record for most wins in a season and were favored in 3 consecutive years over the Celtics. They won only 1 of those series.
- Kept guys like Jerry West out of the GOAT conversation as well

Easily the greatest winner of all-time. Ultimate team player. While he had great teammates, he also dragged teammates into the HOF due to how much the Celtics won. Super small sample size but the Celtics were 10-18 when he didn't play.

The Celtics won because of their record defense while their offense was mid. And Russell was the key to that defense.

He'd also have a ton of DPOY awards and FMVPs (which is named after him) to go along with the above accolades which would put him even further out reach. Throw in 5-10 DPOYs and 5-10 FMVPs and he's light years ahead of anyone else.

No one else can boast 2x NCAA Champ, Olympic Champ, 11x NBA Champ, 5x MVP, and 2x Player-Coach Champ. If you add in a speculative 8x DPOY and 8x FMVP (which are not unreasonable) to account for modern awards, the man looks like a God.

MJ gets #2 rather easily. Or if you want to do it by eras, MJ is the greatest of his era (GOHE?). Russell kept Wilt - who many consider the MJ of that era (I do not) - from winning time and again.

The gap between Russell and the rest of the field is insurmountable. The gap between MJ and the others behind him is significant but Bill is on another tier.

[michaelm]

Bill Russell is untouchable in the GOAT debate. No one will ever come close to matching his resume.

2x NCAA Champion
- Won consecutive NCAA titles
- Played at University of San Francisco which never won another title before or after Russell
- Led them to 55 consecutive wins during one stretch

Olympic Champion
- Largest average margin of victory by an Olympic team of 53.5 pts, which is almost 10 pts higher than the Dream Team's 43.8 pts margin.
- Leading scorer on the undefeated team (14.1 ppg, lol)

5x MVP
- 1 more than Wilt who won his first MVP in his rookie year

11x NBA Champion
- 11 rings in 13 seasons is something we will probably never see again!

2x Player-Coach Champion
- Coaching and playing at the same time is something we're unlikely to see ever again
- Winning two rings while filling two major roles hasn't been done by anyone else

Clutch
- 10-0 in Game 7s
- 9-0 in College Tournament games
- 2-0 in Olympic elimination games
- 1-0 in a deciding Game 5
- That makes it 22-0 in winner-take-all games

Tough
- Brought hard-nosed defense to the NBA
- Knocked a guy out stone cold because he kept taking cheap shots at Russell during a game

Kept Wilt out of the GOAT convo
- Won 5 MVPs to WIlt's 4
- Won 11 rings to Wilt's 2
- Showed that winning was about much more than simply scoring for centers. Wilt's two playoff runs that ended in a ring did not feature him as the top scorer. He was tied for 2nd (despite playing the most minutes on the team by far) during the first run and 4th during the second run.
- Wilt's 76ers were dominant. They set the record for most wins in a season and were favored in 3 consecutive years over the Celtics. They won only 1 of those series.
- Kept guys like Jerry West out of the GOAT conversation as well

Easily the greatest winner of all-time. Ultimate team player. While he had great teammates, he also dragged teammates into the HOF due to how much the Celtics won. Super small sample size but the Celtics were 10-18 when he didn't play.

The Celtics won because of their record defense while their offense was mid. And Russell was the key to that defense.

He'd also have a ton of DPOY awards and FMVPs (which is named after him) to go along with the above accolades which would put him even further out reach. Throw in 5-10 DPOYs and 5-10 FMVPs and he's light years ahead of anyone else.

No one else can boast 2x NCAA Champ, Olympic Champ, 11x NBA Champ, 5x MVP, and 2x Player-Coach Champ. If you add in a speculative 8x DPOY and 8x FMVP (which are not unreasonable) to account for modern awards, the man looks like a God.

MJ gets #2 rather easily. Or if you want to do it by eras, MJ is the greatest of his era (GOHE?). Russell kept Wilt - who many consider the MJ of that era (I do not) - from winning time and again.

The gap between Russell and the rest of the field is insurmountable. The gap between MJ and the others behind him is significant but Bill is on another tier.

I agree with nearly all of this, I always ask people what more Bill could/should have done. He is on the record as saying he decided early in his career that his sole objective was to make his team win, and he certainly succeeded at same. The Celtics didn’t win the title the season before his debut season nor the season after he retired, and at least for 1 year of the 2 when the Celtics didn’t win the title while he was on their roster he was injured, They don’t seem to have had any need for him to be a better/more prolific scorer.

That said I also pretty much agree with the recent poster who suggested the GOAT debate should be divided into eras, with the 3 eras suggested fairly reasonable imo, Bill’s era was something of a foreign country compared to the NBA 60 years later. Extreme outliers can also occur at any time in a sport though, the guy likely to remain the best cricket batsman of all time played his last innings nearly 80 years with statisticians reckoning it would take 10,000 years to see his like again, and there hasn’t been a profusion of players with Wilt’s combination of size and athleticism since his time either.

[PassMeTheBall]

Kareem quite easily. When you compare Kareem & Lebron's resumes it's not really close. All-NBAs & All-Star appearances aren't as impressive as more MVPs or more All-Defensive teams made since they're way harder to achieve. Kareem should also have 3 FMVPs since they literally took the one away. Kareem also didn't jump from team to team to ring chase, he joined the Lakers when they were literally the worst team in the West.

It´s always funny to me that there is this constant talk about Bill Russell and Wilt playing in the plumber era and reasons for putting an asterisk on every modern title, while Kareem somehow gets a pass.

Is it really more impressive that he won 4 of his 6 MVPs in a watered down league due to the ABA, one of those while playing for a team with a losing record? Is it a coincidence that his stats dropped after the merger, despite him only being 29? Would he have had the same level of success with the additional competition of Doctor J, Rick Barry, Artis Gilmore, Billy Cunningham, Bobby Jones, George McGinnis, Mel Daniels and Dan Issel?

To go back to his 4th MVP. He won MVP that season while not making the playoffs on a 40-42 Win Lakers team, while 6 out of 9 teams in the West had a losing record that year and only one Western team had a better record than 43 wins.

He won the MVP with 409 points, 16 points more than Bob McAdoo who had lead the league in scoring on a team with more wins, Dave Cowens, who was the best player on the team with the 2nd best team record and Rick Barry, who was the best player on the team with the best league record. There is absolutely no way that he would win that MVP under those circumstances in the modern era.

And to a lesser extend the same can be said about his 6th MVP, where he was 6th in scoring, 8th in rebounds and 1st in Blocks, while playing for the team with the 2nd best win record. He is still the most fitting candidate, there is no real argument for Dr. J over him and Gervin was on a 41 win team, but it is definitely one of the lesser impressive MVPs in history.

What you're forgetting is Kareem should have around 8 MVPs instead of only 6 even if you want to make that argument. The one he lost to Dave Cowens in 1973 is one of the biggest MVP robberies in history. Cowens wasn't even the best player of his own team that year. Kareem also had a very strong case for a few of them after the merger ended. Bill Walton wasn't better than Kareem in 1978, he just had an excellent team with 2 other All-Stars & 3 great defenders. Also Dr. J was barely ever better than Kareem when he joined the league. The vast majority of the years when Dr. J entered the league, Kareem was still better than him outside of 3 or 4 seasons from 77-87. His stats also dropped a little since he was taking less FGs a game after he joined the Lakers. He was still putting up monster numbers from 77-81. Than even from 82-86 he was still putting up All-NBA numbers & won FMVP as the oldest player ever at 38.

His 4th MVP he had a losing record but he was so far better than everyone else that year on an individual basis. Even if you take that one away he should've won in 1973, 1978 & had very strong arguments for 1979 & 1981. Cowens wasn't even close to being better than Kareem in 1976. He just had the way better team. Whether you agree or not Kareem deserved that MVP even with only 40 win season. How does he not win it with averaging 28ppg, 17trpg, 5apg, 1.5spg, 4bpg? Not sure what you're going on about his 6th MVP. I'm noticing you don't factor in defense at all. Kareem was just the flat out best player in 1980 & it was a very solid season.

[PassMeTheBall]

Bill Russell is untouchable in the GOAT debate. No one will ever come close to matching his resume.

2x NCAA Champion
- Won consecutive NCAA titles
- Played at University of San Francisco which never won another title before or after Russell
- Led them to 55 consecutive wins during one stretch

Olympic Champion
- Largest average margin of victory by an Olympic team of 53.5 pts, which is almost 10 pts higher than the Dream Team's 43.8 pts margin.
- Leading scorer on the undefeated team (14.1 ppg, lol)

5x MVP
- 1 more than Wilt who won his first MVP in his rookie year

11x NBA Champion
- 11 rings in 13 seasons is something we will probably never see again!

2x Player-Coach Champion
- Coaching and playing at the same time is something we're unlikely to see ever again
- Winning two rings while filling two major roles hasn't been done by anyone else

Clutch
- 10-0 in Game 7s
- 9-0 in College Tournament games
- 2-0 in Olympic elimination games
- 1-0 in a deciding Game 5
- That makes it 22-0 in winner-take-all games

Tough
- Brought hard-nosed defense to the NBA
- Knocked a guy out stone cold because he kept taking cheap shots at Russell during a game

Kept Wilt out of the GOAT convo
- Won 5 MVPs to WIlt's 4
- Won 11 rings to Wilt's 2
- Showed that winning was about much more than simply scoring for centers. Wilt's two playoff runs that ended in a ring did not feature him as the top scorer. He was tied for 2nd (despite playing the most minutes on the team by far) during the first run and 4th during the second run.
- Wilt's 76ers were dominant. They set the record for most wins in a season and were favored in 3 consecutive years over the Celtics. They won only 1 of those series.
- Kept guys like Jerry West out of the GOAT conversation as well

Easily the greatest winner of all-time. Ultimate team player. While he had great teammates, he also dragged teammates into the HOF due to how much the Celtics won. Super small sample size but the Celtics were 10-18 when he didn't play.

The Celtics won because of their record defense while their offense was mid. And Russell was the key to that defense.

He'd also have a ton of DPOY awards and FMVPs (which is named after him) to go along with the above accolades which would put him even further out reach. Throw in 5-10 DPOYs and 5-10 FMVPs and he's light years ahead of anyone else.

No one else can boast 2x NCAA Champ, Olympic Champ, 11x NBA Champ, 5x MVP, and 2x Player-Coach Champ. If you add in a speculative 8x DPOY and 8x FMVP (which are not unreasonable) to account for modern awards, the man looks like a God.

MJ gets #2 rather easily. Or if you want to do it by eras, MJ is the greatest of his era (GOHE?). Russell kept Wilt - who many consider the MJ of that era (I do not) - from winning time and again.

The gap between Russell and the rest of the field is insurmountable. The gap between MJ and the others behind him is significant but Bill is on another tier.

He definitely has a case. My main reasons for him not being the GOAT to me are his lack of elite offense, having pretty stacked teams relative to his era. & Wilt making All-NBA 1st Team over him 7x to 2x. I do have him top 3 all time on my list only behind MJ & Kareem.

[AlexanderRight]

LeBron's the GOAT so it's probably Kareem and then Jordan 3rd. His quitting the league multiple times (especially in his prime) is a big stain on his career.

Literally no one besides Lebron stans say this. Half of you don't even believe it. It's just something y'all try to convince yourselves and others because you can't construct a valid argument against MJ's actual on court play.

Everyone knows why MJ went to play baseball. Cause it was his murdered dad's dream and he essentially accomplished everything he wanted to in basketball, which was already an all time career at worst. Anybody that tries to frame that as somehow making MJ less of a basketball player or person seriously needs to reevaluate themselves.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron's the GOAT so it's probably Kareem and then Jordan 3rd. His quitting the league multiple times (especially in his prime) is a big stain on his career.

Lol and James getting embarrassed in the 2011 finals isnt a bigger stain on his career? Jordan quit the nba to go give baseball a try after his pops was murdered, James played like crap in the 2011 finals because he couldn’t handle the pressure and wanted Wade to bail him out.

[The4thHorseman]

LeBron's the GOAT so it's probably Kareem and then Jordan 3rd. His quitting the league multiple times (especially in his prime) is a big stain on his career.

Literally no one besides Lebron stans say this. Half of you don't even believe it. It's just something y'all try to convince yourselves and others because you can't construct a valid argument against MJ's actual on court play.

Everyone knows why MJ went to play baseball. Cause it was his murdered dad's dream and he essentially accomplished everything he wanted to in basketball, which was already an all time career at worst. Anybody that tries to frame that as somehow making MJ less of a basketball player or person seriously needs to reevaluate themselves.

It definitely is a valid argument if you're going to be considered the GOAT. There's no longevity involved. After his 86 injury, he was only able to play 7 consecutive seasons (87-93) before walking away. He was tired

If the Bulls owner didn't also own the White Sox, you really think any other team signs him for more than nothing than a sideshow to put asses in the seats in the minor leagues? You really think he's going to walk away from the 6+ million he was still owed over the following 2 seasons? No he wasn't, so what better way to collect that money (when you're tired) than be the highest paid Minor league player in history at that time.

If he had accomplished everything he wanted, then why did he comeback?

[KayDee35]

Spoiler:

Bill Russell is untouchable in the GOAT debate. No one will ever come close to matching his resume.

2x NCAA Champion
- Won consecutive NCAA titles
- Played at University of San Francisco which never won another title before or after Russell
- Led them to 55 consecutive wins during one stretch

Olympic Champion
- Largest average margin of victory by an Olympic team of 53.5 pts, which is almost 10 pts higher than the Dream Team's 43.8 pts margin.
- Leading scorer on the undefeated team (14.1 ppg, lol)

5x MVP
- 1 more than Wilt who won his first MVP in his rookie year

11x NBA Champion
- 11 rings in 13 seasons is something we will probably never see again!

2x Player-Coach Champion
- Coaching and playing at the same time is something we're unlikely to see ever again
- Winning two rings while filling two major roles hasn't been done by anyone else

Clutch
- 10-0 in Game 7s
- 9-0 in College Tournament games
- 2-0 in Olympic elimination games
- 1-0 in a deciding Game 5
- That makes it 22-0 in winner-take-all games

Tough
- Brought hard-nosed defense to the NBA
- Knocked a guy out stone cold because he kept taking cheap shots at Russell during a game

Kept Wilt out of the GOAT convo
- Won 5 MVPs to WIlt's 4
- Won 11 rings to Wilt's 2
- Showed that winning was about much more than simply scoring for centers. Wilt's two playoff runs that ended in a ring did not feature him as the top scorer. He was tied for 2nd (despite playing the most minutes on the team by far) during the first run and 4th during the second run.
- Wilt's 76ers were dominant. They set the record for most wins in a season and were favored in 3 consecutive years over the Celtics. They won only 1 of those series.
- Kept guys like Jerry West out of the GOAT conversation as well

Easily the greatest winner of all-time. Ultimate team player. While he had great teammates, he also dragged teammates into the HOF due to how much the Celtics won. Super small sample size but the Celtics were 10-18 when he didn't play.

The Celtics won because of their record defense while their offense was mid. And Russell was the key to that defense.

He'd also have a ton of DPOY awards and FMVPs (which is named after him) to go along with the above accolades which would put him even further out reach. Throw in 5-10 DPOYs and 5-10 FMVPs and he's light years ahead of anyone else.

No one else can boast 2x NCAA Champ, Olympic Champ, 11x NBA Champ, 5x MVP, and 2x Player-Coach Champ. If you add in a speculative 8x DPOY and 8x FMVP (which are not unreasonable) to account for modern awards, the man looks like a God.

MJ gets #2 rather easily. Or if you want to do it by eras, MJ is the greatest of his era (GOHE?). Russell kept Wilt - who many consider the MJ of that era (I do not) - from winning time and again.

The gap between Russell and the rest of the field is insurmountable. The gap between MJ and the others behind him is significant but Bill is on another tier.

I agree with nearly all of this, I always ask people what more Bill could/should have done. He is on the record as saying he decided early in his career that his sole objective was to make his team win, and he certainly succeeded at same. The Celtics didn’t win the title the season before his debut season nor the season after he retired, and at least for 1 year of the 2 when the Celtics didn’t win the title while he was on their roster he was injured, They don’t seem to have had any need for him to be a better/more prolific scorer.

That said I also pretty much agree with the recent poster who suggested the GOAT debate should be divided into eras, with the 3 eras suggested fairly reasonable imo, Bill’s era was something of a foreign country compared to the NBA 60 years later. Extreme outliers can also occur at any time in a sport though, the guy likely to remain the best cricket batsman of all time played his last innings nearly 80 years with statisticians reckoning it would take 10,000 years to see his like again, and there hasn’t been a profusion of players with Wilt’s combination of size and athleticism since his time either.

Agreed on the sorting of GOATs by eras. During the 60s, the impact of defense was greater than that of offense, especially in the playoffs. Wilt got his 2 rings during that era (the second was in early 70s) by playing great defense and not being the focal point of the offense. I too view Bill as not needing to do more on offense considering how his teams did and how it kept his teammates involved.

[KayDee35]

Spoiler:

Bill Russell is untouchable in the GOAT debate. No one will ever come close to matching his resume.

2x NCAA Champion
- Won consecutive NCAA titles
- Played at University of San Francisco which never won another title before or after Russell
- Led them to 55 consecutive wins during one stretch

Olympic Champion
- Largest average margin of victory by an Olympic team of 53.5 pts, which is almost 10 pts higher than the Dream Team's 43.8 pts margin.
- Leading scorer on the undefeated team (14.1 ppg, lol)

5x MVP
- 1 more than Wilt who won his first MVP in his rookie year

11x NBA Champion
- 11 rings in 13 seasons is something we will probably never see again!

2x Player-Coach Champion
- Coaching and playing at the same time is something we're unlikely to see ever again
- Winning two rings while filling two major roles hasn't been done by anyone else

Clutch
- 10-0 in Game 7s
- 9-0 in College Tournament games
- 2-0 in Olympic elimination games
- 1-0 in a deciding Game 5
- That makes it 22-0 in winner-take-all games

Tough
- Brought hard-nosed defense to the NBA
- Knocked a guy out stone cold because he kept taking cheap shots at Russell during a game

Kept Wilt out of the GOAT convo
- Won 5 MVPs to WIlt's 4
- Won 11 rings to Wilt's 2
- Showed that winning was about much more than simply scoring for centers. Wilt's two playoff runs that ended in a ring did not feature him as the top scorer. He was tied for 2nd (despite playing the most minutes on the team by far) during the first run and 4th during the second run.
- Wilt's 76ers were dominant. They set the record for most wins in a season and were favored in 3 consecutive years over the Celtics. They won only 1 of those series.
- Kept guys like Jerry West out of the GOAT conversation as well

Easily the greatest winner of all-time. Ultimate team player. While he had great teammates, he also dragged teammates into the HOF due to how much the Celtics won. Super small sample size but the Celtics were 10-18 when he didn't play.

The Celtics won because of their record defense while their offense was mid. And Russell was the key to that defense.

He'd also have a ton of DPOY awards and FMVPs (which is named after him) to go along with the above accolades which would put him even further out reach. Throw in 5-10 DPOYs and 5-10 FMVPs and he's light years ahead of anyone else.

No one else can boast 2x NCAA Champ, Olympic Champ, 11x NBA Champ, 5x MVP, and 2x Player-Coach Champ. If you add in a speculative 8x DPOY and 8x FMVP (which are not unreasonable) to account for modern awards, the man looks like a God.

MJ gets #2 rather easily. Or if you want to do it by eras, MJ is the greatest of his era (GOHE?). Russell kept Wilt - who many consider the MJ of that era (I do not) - from winning time and again.

The gap between Russell and the rest of the field is insurmountable. The gap between MJ and the others behind him is significant but Bill is on another tier.

He definitely has a case. My main reasons for him not being the GOAT to me are his lack of elite offense, having pretty stacked teams relative to his era. & Wilt making All-NBA 1st Team over him 7x to 2x. I do have him top 3 all time on my list only behind MJ & Kareem.

I can respect that list. Wilt was the greater talent but even when his teams were the higher seed, he was able to win just once against Bill. That era favored defense more than later eras.

[AlexanderRight]

LeBron's the GOAT so it's probably Kareem and then Jordan 3rd. His quitting the league multiple times (especially in his prime) is a big stain on his career.

Literally no one besides Lebron stans say this. Half of you don't even believe it. It's just something y'all try to convince yourselves and others because you can't construct a valid argument against MJ's actual on court play.

Everyone knows why MJ went to play baseball. Cause it was his murdered dad's dream and he essentially accomplished everything he wanted to in basketball, which was already an all time career at worst. Anybody that tries to frame that as somehow making MJ less of a basketball player or person seriously needs to reevaluate themselves.

It definitely is a valid argument if you're going to be considered the GOAT. There's no longevity involved. After his 86 injury, he was only able to play 7 consecutive seasons (87-93) before walking away. He was tired

If the Bulls owner didn't also own the White Sox, you really think any other team signs him for more than nothing than a sideshow to put asses in the seats in the minor leagues? You really think he's going to walk away from the 6+ million he was still owed over the following 2 seasons? No he wasn't, so what better way to collect that money (when you're tired) than be the highest paid Minor league player in history at that time.

If he had accomplished everything he wanted, then why did he comeback?

You think 3 million a year was big money to MJ? You think the White Sox not signing him was gonna stop MJ from trying to play baseball? Clearly you don't know MJ...

Longevity would be a valid argument if MJ was actually out-accomplished, but he wasn't. The fact that LBJ ( or really anyone) hasn't accomplished more than MJ from a team perspective, individual impact perspective, or culture perspective despite LBJ playing longer is more of an argument for MJ than anything else. What you actually accomplish is more important than just how long you play.

Honestly the reason MJ left the game doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with MJ's actual on court play which is all that matters in a basketball discussion. If you wanna say he "was just tired" and pretend that what happened to his dad had nothing do with it, then sure, you can live in that world. It still doesn't change the fact that MJ still has more 2 more Rings, 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPS, 9 Scoring Titles, 3 Steals Titles, 4 All D 1st Teams and a DPOY over LBJ. That's a HOF career on it's own. It doesn't change the fact that MJ has better career PER, PPG, SPG, BPG, TOPG, FT%. That's 5/8 main basketball stats.

MJ could've left to go be a pornstar for two years for all I care. It still doesn't change the fact that MJ was still better at basketball and accomplished more in basketball than LBJ.

[RHODEY]

So, what happened with the thread about second best player of all time?

Is this so clear who he is and the thread was merged?

Why you keep open a thread with Jordan at 70% and you don't want to discuss who is the second best of all time?

Because Lebron would be exposed. The real scam is putting him at #2 ...he's nowhere near it. I noticed Kobe is not even in this poll.