Update: It is time to trade Scottie Barnes before it's too late!

[bballsparkin]

I don’t know, he seemed to ignore my “preseason doesn’t mean anything” and start and argument so I figured it was irrelevant. Or am I doing this bad faith arguing wrong?

I'm not jumping into the argument hehe. Just noticed people were ignoring the /S.

[MoneyBall]

[Um, no. I did not bring up preseason stats with you, nor was it used as an argument for its validity. I responded to those who DO take those stats seriously (people like you, apparently).

Uhhhh, this you?

Look, it's real simple, all he has to do is go 31/6/4 with super high effeciency/S

Lol, pretty sure you forgot to add the /S.

Yes, he "forgot".

[MoneyBall]

1) Scottie is not our best player anymore
2) His floor is not good. His floor is actually downright pathetically low

Ugh. Ingram has been a net negative on defense his entire career. His scoring will come in handy but he's got his share of serious flaws.

Calling Scottie's floor pathetically low, is ironically, pathetically low.

[HiJiNX]

The negative conversation around Barnes has really jumped the shark.

We know that he’s not some super scoring guy who can light it up from three levels on an island. I’m not sure why people can’t accept that he isn’t that guy and will never be that guy. He was never projected to be that guy. At his absolute best he’s still not that guy. What he is, however, is a very effective player because he can show up well in almost every aspect of game.

Are there concerns about his process and shooting? Of course (especially his shooting). That said, my unsubstantiated opinion is that Masai really wanted Scottie to be a scoring type wing and hoped to convert him into that, forcing our coaches to deploy him that way, while Bobby sees Barnes as sort of a super role player. The truth of what Barnes is a player is probably somewhere between that. He’s not a super iso scorer but he can get you iso buckets in key moments. He’s also great defensively and is amazing at starting transition and changing momentum in our favour. We also tend to function much better when he touches the ball because he doesn’t make the ball stick and usually makes the right reads. Despite his scoring woes and brain farts he is typically a very impactful player.

And if we are being super real, most of his bad qualities show up when he’s had to adjust his role or he’s coming back from injuries. Beyond that, he’s mostly been good.

[MoneyBall]

What argument are you trying to make? You don’t get to hand wave away real flaws because he’s “human”. He has made almost zero scoring improvements across 4 seasons. The guy is getting paid the max. We no longer have years to wait on his development.

Why do you think it’s acceptable for a 5th year player to make little to no progress in a significant area of their game? Why has Barnes not improved in almost a single area of scoring? ISO, shooting, post up, pnr. He’s bad in all of them. How is that acceptable? We’re not asking for improvement everywhere but we need improvement somewhere and we’re not getting it.

You're cherry picking one area of his game. He's a much better overall player today than when he entered the league. No question. He went from ROY, to AS, to now the face of this organization, all in his first 3 seasons. But because he hasn't turned into a bonafide scorer he's a failure.

BTW, the guy is getting paid the max because he's worth the max. There's no team out there that would hesitate to take him and his contract.

To be honest, I think he’s the exact same player he was as when he entered the league.

Hes got higher usage now, so his raw <‘s are up, but I don’t know if he is any better from a skills standpoint. He has some experience to draw back on now, but he is not technically stronger anywhere.

You don't maintain, much less improve, in advanced metrics on both ends of the court when handed more usage year over year. More usage leads to less effeciency without improvement, not more.

He's doubled his assist rate all the while playing with worse teammates. Going from 0.4 BPM in year 2 to 3.7 BPM in yr 3 is MASSIVE. Unfortunately he took a step back last year, but still way better than yrs 1 and 2.

[Indeed]

Last year was a bit of a throw away for Scottie. He was encouraged to just chuck 3s to get reps since we weren't trying to win. I'm expecting a leap this year with him focusing on playing to his strengths. I don't want to see him shoot a 3 unless he is wide open and being challenged to do so. He clearly took a step back last season without Pascal beside him drawing attention. That should be corrected with BI.

What would be the correction you are expecting?

What I want to see is bully ball. I want to see him play more like Giannis. Rebound, run, drive, pass.

If he cannot shoot, I do not see that happen, as his matchup would be against Cs, and he won't be able to bully against them. Teams will not have their PF guarding Ingram like Siakam, so Barnes will matchup against PF or C.

Meanwhile, he is not Giannis, his athleticism isn't at that level, and he does not have the advanced handle like Giannis to get by his man.

[HiJiNX]

Wouldn't shock me if Scottie needed a change of scenery to maximize his potential.

yup, definitely to re-adjust the expectation he's not a max player but a great role player

i think Bobby Webster kinda already hinted at that

He moved so much better as a rookie, he's got to be nursing an injury.

I think he gained too much weight.

[YogurtProducer]

In the season opener Barnes is going to destroy Porzingis. A versatile help defender like him will be useful against a soft stretch big like KP. I don't expect a big scoring game but I do think he'll be dominant defensively and get us running in transition. If we put RJ on Young, then Barnes gets a stop and rebound. He'll forward the ball to RJ in transition against Young. That will be the key to winning this game, attacking Young on defense and in transition.

I don’t know if he will. Kristaps or whoever they put on Barnes will just play 15 feet off of him. If anything a good shot blocker like Kristaps is gonna wreck havoc on us if he can just roam with Barnes being no threat.

Then Barnes can set screens and roll like he did against the Nets.

Watch on YouTube

He did that a total of once in his game against Brooklyn.

[YogurtProducer]

1) Scottie is not our best player anymore
2) His floor is not good. His floor is actually downright pathetically low

Ugh. Ingram has been a net negative on defense his entire career. His scoring will come in handy but he's got his share of serious flaws.

Calling Scottie's floor pathetically low, is ironically, pathetically low.

And Scottie has been a negative on offence his entire career - what’s your point?

Scottie’s floor IS low. He has games when he doesn’t look interested at all in playing. He doesn’t provide spacing offensively, and gives little effort defensively. Scottie at his worst is not a very good player at all.

This isn’t even an opinion, it’s just factual. He has the tools to be a solid every day piece, but that starts with an consistent effort level.

[YogurtProducer]

You're cherry picking one area of his game. He's a much better overall player today than when he entered the league. No question. He went from ROY, to AS, to now the face of this organization, all in his first 3 seasons. But because he hasn't turned into a bonafide scorer he's a failure.

BTW, the guy is getting paid the max because he's worth the max. There's no team out there that would hesitate to take him and his contract.

To be honest, I think he’s the exact same player he was as when he entered the league.

Hes got higher usage now, so his raw <‘s are up, but I don’t know if he is any better from a skills standpoint. He has some experience to draw back on now, but he is not technically stronger anywhere.

You don't maintain, much less improve, in advanced metrics on both ends of the court when handed more usage year over year. More usage leads to less effeciency without improvement, not more.

He's doubled his assist rate all the while playing with worse teammates. Going from 0.4 BPM in year 2 to 3.7 BPM in yr 3 is MASSIVE. Unfortunately he took a step back last year, but still way better than yrs 1 and 2.

First of all, BPM is just box score stats. It’s far from advanced

He doubled his asst rate because his role changed.

I’m serious - what’s one thing he does better now than he did 4 years ago? I’m convinced he could have been an inefficient 20/8/6 player from day 1. It isn’t that hard to do in the NBA if you get enough usage.

[MoneyBall]

1) Scottie is not our best player anymore
2) His floor is not good. His floor is actually downright pathetically low

Ugh. Ingram has been a net negative on defense his entire career. His scoring will come in handy but he's got his share of serious flaws.

Calling Scottie's floor pathetically low, is ironically, pathetically low.

And Scottie has been a negative on offence his entire career - what’s your point?

Scottie’s floor IS low. He has games when he doesn’t look interested at all in playing. He doesn’t provide spacing offensively, and gives little effort defensively. Scottie at his worst is not a very good player at all.

This isn’t even an opinion, it’s just factual. He has the tools to be a solid every day piece, but that starts with an consistent effort level.

Oh dear, I can't get past the first sentence. Such ignorance.

His OBPM per season:
Yr1 +0.5
Yr2 +0.5
Yr3 +2.9
Yr4 +1.5

Other metrics like EPM and RPM confirm that Scottie has been a net positive on offense. Is that elite territory? No, but it's nothing to scoff at and certainly isn't in negative territory like Ingram's defense.

[MoneyBall]

To be honest, I think he’s the exact same player he was as when he entered the league.

Hes got higher usage now, so his raw <‘s are up, but I don’t know if he is any better from a skills standpoint. He has some experience to draw back on now, but he is not technically stronger anywhere.

You don't maintain, much less improve, in advanced metrics on both ends of the court when handed more usage year over year. More usage leads to less effeciency without improvement, not more.

He's doubled his assist rate all the while playing with worse teammates. Going from 0.4 BPM in year 2 to 3.7 BPM in yr 3 is MASSIVE. Unfortunately he took a step back last year, but still way better than yrs 1 and 2.

First of all, BPM is just box score stats. It’s far from advanced

He doubled his asst rate because his role changed.

I’m serious - what’s one thing he does better now than he did 4 years ago? I’m convinced he could have been an inefficient 20/8/6 player from day 1. It isn’t that hard to do in the NBA if you get enough usage.

BPM is literally placed under Advanced section of his stat profile. It's not a raw plus minus stat.

[ConSarnit]

The negative conversation around Barnes has really jumped the shark.

We know that he’s not some super scoring guy who can light it up from three levels on an island. I’m not sure why people can’t accept that he isn’t that guy and will never be that guy. He was never projected to be that guy. At his absolute best he’s still not that guy. What he is, however, is a very effective player because he can show up well in almost every aspect of game.

Are there concerns about his process and shooting? Of course (especially his shooting). That said, my unsubstantiated opinion is that Masai really wanted Scottie to be a scoring type wing and hoped to convert him into that, forcing our coaches to deploy him that way, while Bobby sees Barnes as sort of a super role player. The truth of what Barnes is a player is probably somewhere between that. He’s not a super iso scorer but he can get you iso buckets in key moments. He’s also great defensively and is amazing at starting transition and changing momentum in our favour. We also tend to function much better when he touches the ball because he doesn’t make the ball stick and usually makes the right reads. Despite his scoring woes and brain farts he is typically a very impactful player.

And if we are being super real, most of his bad qualities show up when he’s had to adjust his role or he’s coming back from injuries. Beyond that, he’s mostly been good.

He was flat out one of the worst volume scorers in the league last year. His scoring game is really bad.

Scoring is a significant aspect of the game and he’s been bad there and has been for 4 years.

How can you say “every aspect of the game” and ignore scoring (a massive aspect of the game)?

[Pointgod]

Some people act like Giannis is the standard for a Scottie trade but I’d just trade him for a better fitting all-star, doesn’t have to be a “superstar” tbh.

Could we trade him for a first option?

[Psubs]

Would people be happier if we had Franz Wagner who is better offensively but worse defensively?

[PushDaRock]

Would people be happier if we had Franz Wagner who is better offensively but worse defensively?

Is that a serious question?

[CazOnReal]

Would people be happier if we had Franz Wagner who is better offensively but worse defensively?

No and frankly I think the comparisons between the two are kind of silly since they play very differently and - more importantly - are in very different situations. The Magic have Franz as more the 2nd option (Potentially a 2A/2B situation with Bane in the mix) whereas Scottie's role on offense has fluctuated to a frustrating extent.

First season, he's more or less the 4th option after Siakam (When he came back from surgery), Fred and O.G.

Second season he fluctuated between 3rd and 4th with the number of injuries we had with some truly awful spacing with Fred having a down season and the late addition of a non-spacing big man in Jakob Poeltl. I love Poeltl but as good as a playmaker as he is, he doesn't stretch the floor and in general is not an ideal center fit next to Scottie.

3rd season it was...kind of a 1A/1B with Siakam before he got traded? Some nights O.G. was fed so maybe you can consider it a 1A/1B/1C scenario I think? My memory eludes me regarding the before but after the big trades it was a little more egalitarian in the few games he, RJ and IQ played. That said, Scottie was often asked to be the 1st option and his efficiency did dip; most notably his 3-point shooting dropped off a cliff. Frankly I don't think we talk enough about how awkward the players acquired in the Siakam/O.G. trades were in maximizing his strengths on offense outside of Quickley who needed time to adapt to being a lead PG instead of a 6th man combo guard but I digress.

Most recent season, he was the defacto 1st option but like the previous season injuries and general roster instability didn't put him in the best situation on offense, not helped by Scottie having to expend a ton of energy guarding the opposing team's best player while also orchestrating the offense as a point forward or- given IQ's limited games played - at point straight up.

It also wasn't ideal that Scottie was playing through injury but it was also his choice to play through it to qualify for All-NBA and the rookie extension bonus that would come from it despite the miniscule chance he'd actually get the nod when he played so poorly later on in the season.

Franz has more or less been "The Other Guy", the Brown to Paolo's Tatum aside from his rookie year and while the roster building for Orlando has been far from perfect - and it's worth mentioning that Franz/Paolo as a pairing hasn't worked out very well in terms of both succeeding statline-wise whereas the two playing separately has resulted in some solid performances irrespective of whether or not it's led to wins in that timeframe.

As an aside but Franz being "better offensively" is only true if you only zero in on "how many points do they score"; Scottie is a significantly better passer & playmaker than Franz. You can argue about touches or whatnot but he's got a better AST/TO ratio despite having the same or worse scoring options on offense/worse spacing from which to operate & pass to. Franz is a good passer but I don't think it's really a competition between the two and Franz's lack of shooting/regression is just as concerning as it is for Scottie's 3-point shot to have fluctuated for his career.

[Wise80]

The excuses are approaching Bargnani level.

His offense just never developed. Handle, shooting etc.

Scottie with a motor that shows up every game can be a good player. It's to bad his effort level is all over the place.

I'm still not sure where he fits on a good to great team.

If the right trade comes along. You move him.

[Got Nuffin]

It honestly sounds like people are very bored and latching on something to complain about.

If Barnes is playing like crap through the season, then yeah that's basis for calling him out. If Ingram is proving to be the next Rudy Gay rather than whatever we hope him to be? Sure, call it a big mistake.

Right now? Yeahhhhh .... time to find something else to read until the actual season starts

[S.W.A.N]

1) Scottie is not our best player anymore
2) His floor is not good. His floor is actually downright pathetically low

Ugh. Ingram has been a net negative on defense his entire career. His scoring will come in handy but he's got his share of serious flaws.

Calling Scottie's floor pathetically low, is ironically, pathetically low.

And Scottie has been a negative on offence his entire career - what’s your point?

Scottie’s floor IS low. He has games when he doesn’t look interested at all in playing. He doesn’t provide spacing offensively, and gives little effort defensively. Scottie at his worst is not a very good player at all.

This isn’t even an opinion, it’s just factual. He has the tools to be a solid every day piece, but that starts with an consistent effort level.

No that is strictly opinion.

His floor is not as low as you claim as his defense, rebounding, and passing give him a solid floor. Even when his shooting is horrible he is still a valuable player. To ignore those aspects of his game is very poor understanding of basketball or trolling.


Has he proven to be the superstar some were anointing him? nope. But his defensive progression has been excellent and if he can find his role in the offense he's still a championship level piece even if he'll never be the 1a offensive option.

2 way players are incredibly valuable and are key to winning basketball. Scottie has a very clear path to being a great two way player.