NBA Trade Thread #13

[2weekswithpay]

I'd argue against targeting Sabonis for a few reasons.

The Kings would want assets for, and he's under contract for 3 more seasons at 40M+. We can afford to acquire him, but that doesn't mean we should. We can use these resources elsewhere.

I don't think Sabonis moves the needle. I don't think his defense is as bad as people think, but he still is an undersized 5 that can't protect the rim. His offense tends to be overrated, Sabonis can't shoot, and he can struggle creating offense. In 2023, the Warriors had Looney sag off and dared him to shoot, and it was very effective.

The Kings were at their best offensively when they ran a DHO heavy offense and surrounded Sabonis with shooters. The Bulls do not have the shooting, and I'm not confident a DHO heavy offense would benefit the players.

[sco]

If you're arguing against Sabonis as a target, I would ask - who are the Bulls realistically going to be able to sign in FA who's anywhere near as useful?

Sabnis, Matas, Giddey is an interesting core. As a starting five with Coby and Okoro for a full season, with Tre and Ayo and Collins leading the reserves, that's probably a 47-50 win team over a full season. Make some smart moves in the next two offseasons and you could put together an actual contender.

I guess it depends how you define useful. Sabonis has useful skills, passing and rebounding, but those are not the skills we need from a C because we have them already. We need a C who can defend, first as a rim protector, but a guy who also can contest on the perimeter would be a nice plus. Give me a Robinson or Claxton 10/10 over Sabonis.

To the broader point, we need a true #1 option (likely to replace Coby), and Sabonis' salary gets in the way of that. Did anyone know Luka was going to be on the block? IMO, we have the assets to make a big swing for a star if one comes up.

[sco]

I agree.. I dont think Sabonis or KAT are the right fits for Bulls. KAT maybe a bit more, because he offsets bad D with big O, but still..

Despite my comments on my prior post, I'd do a deal for KAT. He may close enough to a #1 option to take the swing. I think Coby would need to go either to make the deal work or just to make the roster work. We might be able to do a line-up of something like: Giddey, one of Okoro/Ayo/Jones, Matas, Smith, KAT.

[Infinity2152]

I think the concept that you can't win without a defensive center went out of the window when Jokic won a championship and stays in the MVP running every year. He's not a shot blocker or laterally fast. He may be a little better than KAT defensively, but he's been running with Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr for years, two 6'9, 6'10 players. Team defense is really a thing. When guards/forwards don't get by screens or play lazy defense on pick and rolls, the big man ends up having to cover both players, like what has happened constantly to Vucevic. Our guys can't stay between their guy and the basket, and a slow big is going to look really bad. I think OKC barely played their center in the Finals, they didn't need to.

It's 2025, three-point shooting is THE premium skill. Much easier to find cheap guys who can play good defense. We're not close to winning a championship. Even so, is anybody prepared to say a team can't win a championship with KAT as one of their BIG 3? And Giddey as the fourth best player? Given his low salary, I'm willing to say a true contender should be willing to go deep in the tax, at least to the first apron, meaning we could add two more players more expensive than Giddey.

There are what, maybe 2-3 centers in the entire league that have averaged 24+ multiple seasons with good 3 pt shooting? Of course, ideally our center is a great defender, but don't think it's the only way to build a winning team.

[jnrjr79]

I think the concept that you can't win without a defensive center went out of the window when Jokic won a championship and stays in the MVP running every year. He's not a shot blocker or laterally fast. He may be a little better than KAT defensively, but he's been running with Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr for years, two 6'9, 6'10 players. Team defense is really a thing. When guards/forwards don't get by screens or play lazy defense on pick and rolls, the big man ends up having to cover both players, like what has happened constantly to Vucevic. Our guys can't stay between their guy and the basket, and a slow big is going to look really bad. I think OKC barely played their center in the Finals, they didn't need to.

It's 2025, three-point shooting is THE premium skill. Much easier to find cheap guys who can play good defense. We're not close to winning a championship. Even so, is anybody prepared to say a team can't win a championship with KAT as one of their BIG 3? And Giddey as the fourth best player? Given his low salary, I'm willing to say a true contender should be willing to go deep in the tax, at least to the first apron, meaning we could add two more players more expensive than Giddey.

There are what, maybe 2-3 centers in the entire league that have averaged 24+ multiple seasons with good 3 pt shooting? Of course, ideally our center is a great defender, but don't think it's the only way to build a winning team.

I don’t think anyone believes you can’t win without a defensive center. And yes, if you have the greatest passing center who has ever lived and he is good for 30 ppg, you can win. But if you have a Sabonis-level center, you darn sure need great point-of-attack defenders.

[Chi town]

If Collins ends up missing more than expected time I could see Huerter to Magic for Isaac or Bitazde and Jett

[Infinity2152]

I think the concept that you can't win without a defensive center went out of the window when Jokic won a championship and stays in the MVP running every year. He's not a shot blocker or laterally fast. He may be a little better than KAT defensively, but he's been running with Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr for years, two 6'9, 6'10 players. Team defense is really a thing. When guards/forwards don't get by screens or play lazy defense on pick and rolls, the big man ends up having to cover both players, like what has happened constantly to Vucevic. Our guys can't stay between their guy and the basket, and a slow big is going to look really bad. I think OKC barely played their center in the Finals, they didn't need to.

It's 2025, three-point shooting is THE premium skill. Much easier to find cheap guys who can play good defense. We're not close to winning a championship. Even so, is anybody prepared to say a team can't win a championship with KAT as one of their BIG 3? And Giddey as the fourth best player? Given his low salary, I'm willing to say a true contender should be willing to go deep in the tax, at least to the first apron, meaning we could add two more players more expensive than Giddey.

There are what, maybe 2-3 centers in the entire league that have averaged 24+ multiple seasons with good 3 pt shooting? Of course, ideally our center is a great defender, but don't think it's the only way to build a winning team.

I don’t think anyone believes you can’t win without a defensive center. And yes, if you have the greatest passing center who has ever lived and he is good for 30 ppg, you can win. But if you have a Sabonis-level center, you darn sure need great point-of-attack defenders.

Okay, KAT's a top 5 center, maybe top 3. So only Jokic then? Just for reference, that 30 point a game unique center who's the only one who can win, his career average is 21.8 pts to KAT's 23.1. Jokic scored 20pts or less his first 5 years. Scored more the last 5 years, last year is the first he was close to 30. Do you think KAT is a Sabonis level center? Because I was talking about Towns, not Sabonis. Bulls don't need the passing, Nuggets don't have anyone who assists even close to Giddey's level besides Jokic.

I brought up Aaron Gordon and MPJ, those are both long defenders. 100% agree you would need great POA defenders, and be good to have a long defensive PF too. A lineup of Giddey, Okoro, Noa at a good level, Matas, Towns should be at worst a mid defense. That's before you add the two additional high cost players I said you could expect to have as a legit contender.

A lineup of Giddey, Jrue Holiday, Okoro, Matas, Towns could be a top 10 defense. Now replace Okoro with a Mikal Bridges type-level player.

[jnrjr79]

I think the concept that you can't win without a defensive center went out of the window when Jokic won a championship and stays in the MVP running every year. He's not a shot blocker or laterally fast. He may be a little better than KAT defensively, but he's been running with Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr for years, two 6'9, 6'10 players. Team defense is really a thing. When guards/forwards don't get by screens or play lazy defense on pick and rolls, the big man ends up having to cover both players, like what has happened constantly to Vucevic. Our guys can't stay between their guy and the basket, and a slow big is going to look really bad. I think OKC barely played their center in the Finals, they didn't need to.

It's 2025, three-point shooting is THE premium skill. Much easier to find cheap guys who can play good defense. We're not close to winning a championship. Even so, is anybody prepared to say a team can't win a championship with KAT as one of their BIG 3? And Giddey as the fourth best player? Given his low salary, I'm willing to say a true contender should be willing to go deep in the tax, at least to the first apron, meaning we could add two more players more expensive than Giddey.

There are what, maybe 2-3 centers in the entire league that have averaged 24+ multiple seasons with good 3 pt shooting? Of course, ideally our center is a great defender, but don't think it's the only way to build a winning team.

I don’t think anyone believes you can’t win without a defensive center. And yes, if you have the greatest passing center who has ever lived and he is good for 30 ppg, you can win. But if you have a Sabonis-level center, you darn sure need great point-of-attack defenders.

Okay, KAT's a top 5 center, maybe top 3. So only Jokic then? Just for reference, that 30 point a game unique center who's the only one who can win, his career average is 21.8 pts to KAT's 23.1. Jokic scored 20pts or less his first 5 years. Scored more the last 5 years, last year is the first he was close to 30. Do you think KAT is a Sabonis level center? Because I was talking about Towns, not Sabonis. Bulls don't need the passing, Nuggets don't have anyone who assists even close to Giddey's level besides Jokic.

I brought up Aaron Gordon and MPJ, those are both long defenders. 100% agree you would need great POA defenders, and be good to have a long defensive PF too. A lineup of Giddey, Okoro, Noa at a good level, Matas, Towns should be at worst a mid defense. That's before you add the two additional high cost players I said you could expect to have as a legit contender.

A lineup of Giddey, Jrue Holiday, Okoro, Matas, Towns could be a top 10 defense. Now replace Okoro with a Mikal Bridges type-level player.

I think KAT is totally fine to have if you have other good defenders. My point is a bad fit if you’re sticking with Giddey + Coby.

[sco]

I don’t think anyone believes you can’t win without a defensive center. And yes, if you have the greatest passing center who has ever lived and he is good for 30 ppg, you can win. But if you have a Sabonis-level center, you darn sure need great point-of-attack defenders.

Okay, KAT's a top 5 center, maybe top 3. So only Jokic then? Just for reference, that 30 point a game unique center who's the only one who can win, his career average is 21.8 pts to KAT's 23.1. Jokic scored 20pts or less his first 5 years. Scored more the last 5 years, last year is the first he was close to 30. Do you think KAT is a Sabonis level center? Because I was talking about Towns, not Sabonis. Bulls don't need the passing, Nuggets don't have anyone who assists even close to Giddey's level besides Jokic.

I brought up Aaron Gordon and MPJ, those are both long defenders. 100% agree you would need great POA defenders, and be good to have a long defensive PF too. A lineup of Giddey, Okoro, Noa at a good level, Matas, Towns should be at worst a mid defense. That's before you add the two additional high cost players I said you could expect to have as a legit contender.

A lineup of Giddey, Jrue Holiday, Okoro, Matas, Towns could be a top 10 defense. Now replace Okoro with a Mikal Bridges type-level player.

I think KAT is totally fine to have if you have other good defenders. My point is a bad fit if you’re sticking with Giddey + Coby.

Yeah, IMO, Coby would need to go in if we got KAT.

With KAT we could roll with Giddey/Okoro/Matas/Smith/KAT and be pretty good. Maybe Noa takes over for Smith down the road.

[Infinity2152]

In agreement Coby would have to go. KAT replaces his three point shooting and scoring, we could get a much more defensive player as SG or SF. I could think of a TON of $25-$40 mill players (Coby's likely cost) to fit in that spot.

KAT has been up to 27 a game, with multiple seasons around 25. Career average 11 rebounds/game. Shooting 40% from three. He's a 1A in terms of scoring, shooting and rebounding. Maybe the closest thing to a 1A we can get the next few years.

[jnrjr79]

In agreement Coby would have to go. KAT replaces his three point shooting and scoring, we could get a much more defensive player as SG or SF. I could think of a TON of $25-$40 mill players (Coby's likely cost) to fit in that spot.

KAT has been up to 27 a game, with multiple seasons around 25. Career average 11 rebounds/game. Shooting 40% from three. He's a 1A in terms of scoring, shooting and rebounding. Maybe the closest thing to a 1A we can get the next few years.

It seems like the Bulls want to build this thing slowly, but yeah, if we got a good perimeter defender, traded Coby this season, and somehow acquired KAT, I wouldn’t be all that upset about it. I feel better about having KAT than I do giving Coby a big payday.

[kodo]

I think the concept that you can't win without a defensive center went out of the window when Jokic won a championship and stays in the MVP running every year. He's not a shot blocker or laterally fast. He may be a little better than KAT defensively, but he's been running with Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr for years, two 6'9, 6'10 players. Team defense is really a thing. When guards/forwards don't get by screens or play lazy defense on pick and rolls, the big man ends up having to cover both players, like what has happened constantly to Vucevic. Our guys can't stay between their guy and the basket, and a slow big is going to look really bad. I think OKC barely played their center in the Finals, they didn't need to.

It's 2025, three-point shooting is THE premium skill. Much easier to find cheap guys who can play good defense. We're not close to winning a championship. Even so, is anybody prepared to say a team can't win a championship with KAT as one of their BIG 3? And Giddey as the fourth best player? Given his low salary, I'm willing to say a true contender should be willing to go deep in the tax, at least to the first apron, meaning we could add two more players more expensive than Giddey.

There are what, maybe 2-3 centers in the entire league that have averaged 24+ multiple seasons with good 3 pt shooting? Of course, ideally our center is a great defender, but don't think it's the only way to build a winning team.

For just winning games in general, yeah it's not a requirement. For the ultimate goal of championship, Denver was a massive outlier in terms of how championship teams are built.
Defenses:
2025: 1st
2024: 3rd
2023: 15th (Denver)
2022: 1st
2021: 10th (but 1st in the postseason)
2020: 3rd
2019: 5th

But the Bulls goals are probably just win more games than we lose and not something that lofty.

[Infinity2152]

In agreement Coby would have to go. KAT replaces his three point shooting and scoring, we could get a much more defensive player as SG or SF. I could think of a TON of $25-$40 mill players (Coby's likely cost) to fit in that spot.

KAT has been up to 27 a game, with multiple seasons around 25. Career average 11 rebounds/game. Shooting 40% from three. He's a 1A in terms of scoring, shooting and rebounding. Maybe the closest thing to a 1A we can get the next few years.

It seems like the Bulls want to build this thing slowly, but yeah, if we got a good perimeter defender, traded Coby this season, and somehow acquired KAT, I wouldn’t be all that upset about it. I feel better about having KAT than I do giving Coby a big payday.

Me too. KAT at $53 mill looks way better than Coby at potentially $40 mill. I'm with everybody in wanting to build the best-looking team, but we're so far from that. Trading our older All-Stars in Lavine, Derozan, and Vucevic is fine. But you need high end top tier players, however and wherever you can get them at this point. We're literally talking about building around Giddey and Matas. Neither has shown "player you build around" yet.

For basically expirings and a few picks, KAT's overall talent and level easily elevates the team in player quality and trade value. Probably be way easier to find a good decent shooting, defensive 6'4-6'6 guard to help KAT than a 7 ft decent shooting defensive center to help Coby. I count POA defense as more important than rim protection anyway. If guys can guard their men, a lot less players even make it to the rim, lol.

Kodo, agree with you too. Don't think the Bulls are focused on building a championship contender right now. We don't even have one top 30 player, imo. Love Matas, but he can play with anybody. So build around KAT, Giddey, or Coby' weaknesses and strengths right now, I pick KAT.

[WindyCityBorn]

In agreement Coby would have to go. KAT replaces his three point shooting and scoring, we could get a much more defensive player as SG or SF. I could think of a TON of $25-$40 mill players (Coby's likely cost) to fit in that spot.

KAT has been up to 27 a game, with multiple seasons around 25. Career average 11 rebounds/game. Shooting 40% from three. He's a 1A in terms of scoring, shooting and rebounding. Maybe the closest thing to a 1A we can get the next few years.

It seems like the Bulls want to build this thing slowly, but yeah, if we got a good perimeter defender, traded Coby this season, and somehow acquired KAT, I wouldn’t be all that upset about it. I feel better about having KAT than I do giving Coby a big payday.

Me too. KAT at $53 mill looks way better than Coby at potentially $40 mill. I'm with everybody in wanting to build the best-looking team, but we're so far from that. Trading our older All-Stars in Lavine, Derozan, and Vucevic is fine. But you need high end top tier players, however and wherever you can get them at this point. We're literally talking about building around Giddey and Matas. Neither has shown "player you build around" yet.

For basically expirings and a few picks, KAT's overall talent and level easily elevates the team in player quality and trade value. Probably be way easier to find a good decent shooting, defensive 6'4-6'6 guard to help KAT than a 7 ft decent shooting defensive center to help Coby. I count POA defense as more important than rim protection anyway. If guys can guard their men, a lot less players even make it to the rim, lol.

Kodo, agree with you too. Don't think the Bulls are focused on building a championship contender right now. We don't even have one top 30 player, imo. Love Matas, but he can play with anybody. So build around KAT, Giddey, or Coby' weaknesses and strengths right now, I pick KAT.

Matas is gong to be a top 25 player by the end of year 3. Possibly by the end of year 2. Of course you need to a top 10 player to realistically contend.

[sco]

It seems like the Bulls want to build this thing slowly, but yeah, if we got a good perimeter defender, traded Coby this season, and somehow acquired KAT, I wouldn’t be all that upset about it. I feel better about having KAT than I do giving Coby a big payday.

Me too. KAT at $53 mill looks way better than Coby at potentially $40 mill. I'm with everybody in wanting to build the best-looking team, but we're so far from that. Trading our older All-Stars in Lavine, Derozan, and Vucevic is fine. But you need high end top tier players, however and wherever you can get them at this point. We're literally talking about building around Giddey and Matas. Neither has shown "player you build around" yet.

For basically expirings and a few picks, KAT's overall talent and level easily elevates the team in player quality and trade value. Probably be way easier to find a good decent shooting, defensive 6'4-6'6 guard to help KAT than a 7 ft decent shooting defensive center to help Coby. I count POA defense as more important than rim protection anyway. If guys can guard their men, a lot less players even make it to the rim, lol.

Kodo, agree with you too. Don't think the Bulls are focused on building a championship contender right now. We don't even have one top 30 player, imo. Love Matas, but he can play with anybody. So build around KAT, Giddey, or Coby' weaknesses and strengths right now, I pick KAT.

Matas is gong to be a top 25 player by the end of year 3. Possibly by the end of year 2. Of course you need to a top 10 player to realistically contend.

I love his ability set, mindset, and work ethic so far. I think he'll need to keep his 3pt% up to be considered great. I also think it will be hard for him to average 20ppg with Coby, Giddey and Vuc all in the starting line-up.

[WindyCityBorn]

Me too. KAT at $53 mill looks way better than Coby at potentially $40 mill. I'm with everybody in wanting to build the best-looking team, but we're so far from that. Trading our older All-Stars in Lavine, Derozan, and Vucevic is fine. But you need high end top tier players, however and wherever you can get them at this point. We're literally talking about building around Giddey and Matas. Neither has shown "player you build around" yet.

For basically expirings and a few picks, KAT's overall talent and level easily elevates the team in player quality and trade value. Probably be way easier to find a good decent shooting, defensive 6'4-6'6 guard to help KAT than a 7 ft decent shooting defensive center to help Coby. I count POA defense as more important than rim protection anyway. If guys can guard their men, a lot less players even make it to the rim, lol.

Kodo, agree with you too. Don't think the Bulls are focused on building a championship contender right now. We don't even have one top 30 player, imo. Love Matas, but he can play with anybody. So build around KAT, Giddey, or Coby' weaknesses and strengths right now, I pick KAT.

Matas is gong to be a top 25 player by the end of year 3. Possibly by the end of year 2. Of course you need to a top 10 player to realistically contend.

I love his ability set, mindset, and work ethic so far. I think he'll need to keep his 3pt% up to be considered great. I also think it will be hard for him to average 20ppg with Coby, Giddey and Vuc all in the starting line-up.

36 percent from 3 as a rookie. I think he’ll be fine there. And you definitely don’t need to shoot 40 percent from 3 to be great. Look at guys like Luka, SGA, Butler, Cunningham and Tatum for examples.

Thankfully Vuc will be gone after this season.

[Infinity2152]

Hope I didn't give the impression that I don't like Matas as a player. I believe he will be very good. Still don't think he's shown he's the guy you build around, nor do you need to. Guys you build around are like Luka, Jokic, Lebron, Duncan, Derrick Rose, etc.

Matas could very well be an AllStar level player and still not be a 1A. Plus I wouldn't worry about building around him because he has no obvious flaws for position. I could see him getting to Tatum level, don't think Lebron or Wemby or Luka level is in his future, though he could surprise me. SGA didn't look like a future MVP when he started, either.

He's not better than KAT, at least not yet.