Which Of These Shooting Guards Was Manu Ginobili Better Than, All-Time?

[OkcSinceSGA]

I think people in here that are probably 20 years old are selling him extremely short. Forget accolades and popularity. In terms of per minute, per possession impact... he's well above Iverson and Allen for example. He's arguable with Tmac and Vince (as much as I LOVE these two in terms of my own favorite list). Mainly because of his absurd IQ, efficiency and playmaking. He was also a better defender than these guys outside of Kobe.

All of his metrics scream SUPERSTAR and top 10 player. It's not his fault that the Spurs used him in that role. At his peak per 36 we are talking about a 23/6/5/2 steals guy with a 3 to 1 turnover ratio and 61-65% TS scoring efficiency. In addition to that, his BPM was 11 at peak and .250 ish WS/48.

[Jailblazers7]

These threads always make me realize how underrated Iverson was. I think the context of his career makes him really difficult to evaluate. The fact that he was as offensively dynamic as he was on teams with legit zero spacing and awful secondary playmaking is crazy.

[Chokic]

Manu was a valuable player a really good player at his peak but he wasnt better than any of the guys listed. These guys all were 1st options for their respective teams. Imagine any of these guys playing a very specific role for a team that was well coached well structured and built around one of the best players of all time. Their efficiency numbers would go up and would mask alot of their flaws which gives an even greater perception of how good they are.

[Johnny Bball]

I can see arguments for all but McGrady, if you picked McGrady, you're baked.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Interesting comps, but it's wild to me that ANYONE would take Vince Carter over Manu, peak or career or any other measure.
Manu dominated the 2005 Pistons in the Finals, in what was one of the worst offensive Finals in league history. His shooting splits are imsane in that series.
And then his 2004 Olympic run with Argentina, and then being a top-10 MVP candidate in 2010-11, I just don't see what Carter did that compares to any of that.
Manu was a far superior player than Carter.

[rand]

Manu Ginobili is either compared to absolute Tier 1 Guards of Bryant & Wade or is treated like a supercharged Jamal Crawford.

Looking to gauge where he stands, which of these Guards do you think he's better than, in Career/Peak-wise?

Problem with career is that you're just not getting nearly as many minutes from Ginobili as the other guys but he's so good per-minute that he's still competitive.

Peak is close between 2005 Manu and 2003 McGrady. Again, minutes are an issue but on a per-minute basis I think Manu was the better player.

Assuming no knowledge of the rest of my roster:

Career
1. Carter
2. Allen
3. Ginobili
4. McGrady
5. Iverson

Peak
1. McGrady
2. Ginobili
3. Carter
4. Allen
5. Iverson

[lobosloboslobos]

None of the above is the answer.

you must enjoy losing a lot

[KayDee35]

Small sample size, but none of the other guys are going to have a better solo on/off than Timmy.



Takes care of pests better than those other guys as well.

Read on Twitter

Manu with the EZ-dub.

[HomoSapien]

They're all better than him, but he arguably had the best career of all of them.

[NZB2323]

I think people in here that are probably 20 years old are selling him extremely short. Forget accolades and popularity. In terms of per minute, per possession impact... he's well above Iverson and Allen for example. He's arguable with Tmac and Vince (as much as I LOVE these two in terms of my own favorite list). Mainly because of his absurd IQ, efficiency and playmaking. He was also a better defender than these guys outside of Kobe.

All of his metrics scream SUPERSTAR and top 10 player. It's not his fault that the Spurs used him in that role. At his peak per 36 we are talking about a 23/6/5/2 steals guy with a 3 to 1 turnover ratio and 61-65% TS scoring efficiency. In addition to that, his BPM was 11 at peak and .250 ish WS/48.

I’m showing his BPM peak at 8.3 for 2008.

[dhsilv2]

Amazingly he was 8th in MVP voting in 2010-2011.

That is a higher peak than Ray Allen and Vince Carter.

Personally I can't think of a year where I thought he was a top 8 player in the league, and I did like him.

17th PER
10th VORP
19th WS
8th XRAPM

He really was the Spurs best offensive player that year and while he's not some DPOY guy, he was an extremely good defender. He also might have had more hustle than anyone else in the league. He just went for every loose ball, made the extra pass, and always seemed to have a hand in every play.

Even as a giant Duncan fan, I'd not argue if someone said Manu was better than him that season in total and that's a pretty darn good argument to have him right around 8th.

Add in most years someone like Kobe is going to be the better choice, even if you think Manu is better due to minutes. But Kobe was just under 34 that year and Manu just over 30 so it was about a 3 minute a game gap. KG was also down to 31 minutes a game and only did 71 games. And that was post injury.

[dhsilv2]

I think people in here that are probably 20 years old are selling him extremely short. Forget accolades and popularity. In terms of per minute, per possession impact... he's well above Iverson and Allen for example. He's arguable with Tmac and Vince (as much as I LOVE these two in terms of my own favorite list). Mainly because of his absurd IQ, efficiency and playmaking. He was also a better defender than these guys outside of Kobe.

All of his metrics scream SUPERSTAR and top 10 player. It's not his fault that the Spurs used him in that role. At his peak per 36 we are talking about a 23/6/5/2 steals guy with a 3 to 1 turnover ratio and 61-65% TS scoring efficiency. In addition to that, his BPM was 11 at peak and .250 ish WS/48.

I’m showing his BPM peak at 8.3 for 2008.

I don't think any RAPM metric would have him anywhere near 11. 11 is GOAT level stuff. That's Jokic, Lebron, Jordan...those types. Love Manu, but lets not go crazy.

[NZB2323]

Small sample size, but none of the other guys are going to have a better solo on/off than Timmy.



Takes care of pests better than those other guys as well.

Read on Twitter

Manu with the EZ-dub.

Doesn’t a 6th man have an advantage when it comes to +/- as he’s going up against bench players?

We can look at Durant and Harden in 2012:

Durant: +1.9
Harden: +8.0

And in the playoffs:

Durant: -0.3
Harden: +18.1

[dhsilv2]

Manu Ginobili is either compared to absolute Tier 1 Guards of Bryant & Wade or is treated like a supercharged Jamal Crawford.

Looking to gauge where he stands, which of these Guards do you think he's better than, in Career/Peak-wise?

Problem with career is that you're just not getting nearly as many minutes from Ginobili as the other guys but he's so good per-minute that he's still competitive.

Peak is close between 2005 Manu and 2003 McGrady. Again, minutes are an issue but on a per-minute basis I think Manu was the better player.

Assuming no knowledge of the rest of my roster:

Career
1. Carter
2. Allen
3. Ginobili
4. McGrady
5. Iverson

Peak
1. McGrady
2. Ginobili
3. Carter
4. Allen
5. Iverson

So I agree Manu's minutes are an issue. But lets look at career playoff + Regular season VORP.

Allen 65.48
Vince 62.04
Manu 58.01
Iverson 55.11

I'll leave it to everyone else to discuss if playoff VORP matters more or not. But when we layer in the playoffs, Manu certainly close some of that gap. If it's enough, I'll leave to others.

[dhsilv2]

Small sample size, but none of the other guys are going to have a better solo on/off than Timmy.


Takes care of pests better than those other guys as well.



Manu with the EZ-dub.

Doesn’t a 6th man have an advantage when it comes to +/- as he’s going up against bench players?

We can look at Durant and Harden in 2012:

Durant: +1.9
Harden: +8.0

And in the playoffs:

Durant: -0.3
Harden: +18.1

I mean it turned out Harden would go on to be an MVP and perhaps the singular best offensive player ever, in terms of ability to carry a load. Or just in short, Harden isn't exactly the guy you'd make this case with. Add in KD's also seemingly a bit weaker in RAPM/on off stats than fans generally rank him anyway. Now I'll still say KD is likely better than Harden full stop, but I'm not sure it's a strong argument.

Also, just glancing at the lineups. It might just be as simple as Harden that year played less minutes with Perkins. Seriously, everyone's on off drops off a cliff with him that year.

[NZB2323]

Small sample size, but none of the other guys are going to have a better solo on/off than Timmy.


Takes care of pests better than those other guys as well.



Manu with the EZ-dub.

Doesn’t a 6th man have an advantage when it comes to +/- as he’s going up against bench players?

We can look at Durant and Harden in 2012:

Durant: +1.9
Harden: +8.0

And in the playoffs:

Durant: -0.3
Harden: +18.1

I mean it turned out Harden would go on to be an MVP and perhaps the singular best offensive player ever, in terms of ability to carry a load. Or just in short, Harden isn't exactly the guy you'd make this case with. Add in KD's also seemingly a bit weaker in RAPM/on off stats than fans generally rank him anyway. Now I'll still say KD is likely better than Harden full stop, but I'm not sure it's a strong argument.

Also, just glancing at the lineups. It might just be as simple as Harden that year played less minutes with Perkins. Seriously, everyone's on off drops off a cliff with him that year.

Harden wasn’t at that level when he was a 22 year old 6th man in OKC. He was +8.0 as a bench player in 2012 and then -3.6 as a starter in 2013.

[dhsilv2]

Doesn’t a 6th man have an advantage when it comes to +/- as he’s going up against bench players?

We can look at Durant and Harden in 2012:

Durant: +1.9
Harden: +8.0

And in the playoffs:

Durant: -0.3
Harden: +18.1

I mean it turned out Harden would go on to be an MVP and perhaps the singular best offensive player ever, in terms of ability to carry a load. Or just in short, Harden isn't exactly the guy you'd make this case with. Add in KD's also seemingly a bit weaker in RAPM/on off stats than fans generally rank him anyway. Now I'll still say KD is likely better than Harden full stop, but I'm not sure it's a strong argument.

Also, just glancing at the lineups. It might just be as simple as Harden that year played less minutes with Perkins. Seriously, everyone's on off drops off a cliff with him that year.

Harden wasn’t at that level when he was a 22 year old 6th man in OKC. He was +8.0 as a bench player in 2012 and then -3.6 as a starter in 2013.

Totally agree he wasn't there yet, but it was that level of play that got him recognized. And again...perk was bad lol. -7.9 and he played major minute with KD and Westbrook vs Harden.

[SeattleJazzFan]

there were times he was better basketball player than kobe - that's how good he was. but what makes manu hard to compare is that due to coming off the bench, he never played huge minutes (and played with two or three other greats) and therefore his stats were never elite. he was an elite player without elite stats.

anyway, for the poll, i think you have to take both Kobe and McGrady over him, but he's better than carter, iverson and allen. top 30 player all time.

[NZB2323]

there were times he was better basketball player than kobe - that's how good he was. but what makes manu hard to compare is that due to coming off the bench, he never played huge minutes (and played with two or three other greats) and therefore his stats were never elite. he was an elite player without elite stats.

anyway, for the poll, i think you have to take both Kobe and McGrady over him, but he's better than carter, iverson and allen. top 30 player all time.

I was going to say top 30 is crazy but then checked my list and had Havlicek 30th, who had a similar career to Ginobili.

[cupcakesnake]

I think it's easy to argue Ray Allen had a better career, and that T-Mac had a better prime.

I think Manu is functionally a better, more well rounded basketball player and better at helping a basketball team win games.