PG - Matas good

[ShouldaPaidBG]

We kinda dont need Coby

[Stratmaster]

I've come around on Giddy as a solid starter for sure. He's got real limitations but he also has real strengths. Pretty positive opening night all things considered. We have some good young pieces and even if we do just win 35 or so games again at least it's on the backs of young improving players and not known qualities like Zach and blind hope in Lonzo's knees.

Well...it's only one game. But last night was on the back of a 35 year old Center most people on here don't want. I thought Giddey played well, and Matas played well. But there is no question who was the main reason the Bulls won last night.

[DuckIII]

I have slight disagreements about Coby. Mainly he is a very good shooting guard, but that is not easy to replace.

I tend to write detailed thoughts in other threads that are specific to the subject, and then make more general comments elsewhere to avoid re-writing it all. So I agree that finding a very good shooting guard is not easy.

What I mean is that taking the entirety of his game, I'm not convinced that his total impact (both good and bad) cannot be matched and exceeded in contract value in a variety of ways, including through more than one player. And I don't need to look past our own roster to view it that way, let alone looking at the league as a whole and the myriad other options we may have to spend $120 million.

This is my opinion as of today. Coby's season will hopefully arrive soon enough to provide further clarity one way or the other.

[DuckIII]

How quickly we forget about Coby White who would also fit with the above three players

I'm sloppy today. To clarify, when I say add Essengue I'm referring to really, consistently adding him as a high minute core player. So I'm referring to 1-2 years from now and depending on if Noa is as good as I think he is. Certainly, by a significant margin, Coby will help more this season.

In my opinion, if this team has a meaningful future it will be because Giddey, Matas and Noa evolve into a huge, fast, athletic three headed monster who can run like crazy with Noa and Matas creating defensive havoc behind Giddey. To me, that is the "special" vision that represents a path to consistent higher level postseason success.

Coby, in my mind, is not special. He's a very good shooting guard, but a guy I believe is far easier to replace in a variety of ways. As of today, I'm not even convinced he's the best option on our own roster when projecting future salaries.

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I don't know. That depends on how he, and to a lesser extent Ayo and Tre, play this season.

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

That's all part of the complication of Coby's situation. I have no idea what his market will be, but I think its safe assume its not going to be a whole lot less than $120 million over 4. And it could be quite a bit more.

I really don't know what will or should happen with our guards. Its a major focal point this season.

[drosestruts]

Such a fun game-glad we didn't blow it. The only bad coaching move was playing Terry-I had to look twice to see who had subbed in. The guy's an 11th man at best-no need to throw him into a tight contest

Well when you're the 11th man and two players are out hurt and other guys are in foul trouble, all of a sudden you're playing.

But agreed with all that Terry looked bad, but you're really rolling the dice any way you go there.

[Chi town]

Crazy pace and physicality across the whole league…

- Lots of injuries incoming

- Many teams won’t continue this high effort play

- Teams without depth are going to suck

Yeah I was watching some highlights of other games and it seemed like every team came out running like crazy.

Billy said in preseason that the 19th team in pace was as fast as last years #1 team.

Almost everyone is playing fast.

[Chi town]

I have slight disagreements about Coby. Mainly he is a very good shooting guard, but that is not easy to replace.

I tend to write detailed thoughts in other threads that are specific to the subject, and then make more general comments elsewhere to avoid re-writing it all. So I agree that finding a very good shooting guard is not easy.

What I mean is that taking the entirety of his game, I'm not convinced that his total impact (both good and bad) cannot be matched and exceeded in contract value in a variety of ways, including through more than one player. And I don't need to look past our own roster to view it that way, let alone looking at the league as a whole and the myriad other options we may have to spend $120 million.

This is my opinion as of today. Coby's season will hopefully arrive soon enough to provide further clarity one way or the other.

Coby’s goal is to be a 40% 3pt shooter this season on high volume. If he does that with his 6-7 FTs he avg post ASB he’s def a keeper.

The court will open up much more when he’s out there.

[drosestruts]

I forgot about my absolutley favorite part of the game last night:

Stacey and Adam talking about why Malik Beasley is no longer with the Pistons, then going into a promo for sports gambling

Was perfection and got a big laugh out of me.

[Indomitable]

Crazy pace and physicality across the whole league…

- Lots of injuries incoming

- Many teams won’t continue this high effort play

- Teams without depth are going to suck

Yeah I was watching some highlights of other games and it seemed like every team came out running like crazy.

Billy said in preseason that the 19th team in pace was as fast as last years #1 team.

Almost everyone is playing fast.

Everyone will try and some will succeed. Other will revert

[madvillian]

I forgot about my absolutley favorite part of the game last night:

Stacey and Adam talking about why Malik Beasley is no longer with the Pistons, then going into a promo for sports gambling

Was perfection and got a big laugh out of me.

I had the game on mute most of the way. Was so much less aggravating. The one time I unmuted I heard Amin giggling at non sense and King talking about feeding Vuc. Back to mute.

[CROBulls]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

[Dan Z]

I'm sloppy today. To clarify, when I say add Essengue I'm referring to really, consistently adding him as a high minute core player. So I'm referring to 1-2 years from now and depending on if Noa is as good as I think he is. Certainly, by a significant margin, Coby will help more this season.

In my opinion, if this team has a meaningful future it will be because Giddey, Matas and Noa evolve into a huge, fast, athletic three headed monster who can run like crazy with Noa and Matas creating defensive havoc behind Giddey. To me, that is the "special" vision that represents a path to consistent higher level postseason success.

Coby, in my mind, is not special. He's a very good shooting guard, but a guy I believe is far easier to replace in a variety of ways. As of today, I'm not even convinced he's the best option on our own roster when projecting future salaries.

Do you think Coby should be traded at the deadline?

I don't know. That depends on how he, and to a lesser extent Ayo and Tre, play this season.

I have mixed thoughts on him, but if his next contract is okay then why not keep him with this core? The fact that AK actually negotiated with Giddey gives me some hope that he'll do the same with Coby.

That's all part of the complication of Coby's situation. I have no idea what his market will be, but I think its safe assume its not going to be a whole lot less than $120 million over 4. And it could be quite a bit more.

I really don't know what will or should happen with our guards. Its a major focal point this season.

That makes sense. We'll have to see how the season goes and evaluate the situation at the deadline.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Coby plays good enough so that we're still not sure what his next contract will look like and (as I said in a previous post) the team might as well keep him rather than let him walk. I say that because I don't see AKME making any significant moves through FA or the draft in the near future.

[Dan Z]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

It's possible that Coby might not have a strong market around the league. When you look at the list of NBA teams how many of them will have money to pay him? Then out of those teams who has a role for him?

[WesPeace]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

I'm not biggest fan of Coby either, I like him, but not as no.1 option.. but your take is a bit overblown contract wise! Shouldnt be paid even close to what Giddey makes??? Giddey makes 25M..

Coby is 25yrs old SG who averaged 20PPG on efficient shooting, 45% 2pts, 37% 3pts, 90% FT - thats easily worth 20M plus contract.. should he get 40M?? No.. but 25-30M possible yeah

[MikeDC]

I think if we had Coby, we win this game easily. I think if the Pistons had Coby, they win this game easily.
I think if we had Jalen Duren, we probably lose a close game if the Pistons had Vuc.

That's the context a lot of the performances last night need to be discussed in.
1. Prior to last season, Cade was basically alone on an island of suck with the Pistons. All of a sudden, they brought in a guy who could really kill you shooting and create some gravity and the game opened up for Cade and he looked a huge amount better.

2. Without Beasley (or THJr or even Ivey) the Pistons and Cade are right back to struggling to shoot. That's the context for understanding this game.

3. This game was two offensively neutered teams going after each other. The Bulls are a little less neutered so they came out ahead.

4. Cade shot 33% when Okoro was on the floor. He shot 33% when Okoro was off the floor. Okoro has never been a defensive stud. He's a JAG on defense. He's not bad, but he's not in the universe of being so good that you should play 4 on 5 on offense. He's also going to foul out really quickly a lot of the time.

5. People who think the Bulls will be fine with just any old "rim running" center (that's a stupid term by the way) should consider Cade/Duren vs. Giddey/Vuc. If you ask me or literally anyone else, except maybe a few guys here, they'd take Cade over Giddey. But despite his limitations, Vuc is a really smart, skilled player. Like, he really knows the game. Duren is... not. He's not like James Wiseman clueless, and he's no even Jalen Smith clueless, but when you watch a game like this, it's evident how much a guy like Vuc brings to the table with his reads and passing that just falls apart when you replace it with a guy like Duren. Part of why Giddey and Matas look so good is because of Vuc. Because he feeds the ball out really well, he spreads the floor, and he's a fairly effective role man. Nobody wants to hear that ****, and if you put a gun to my head, I'd still chose to move forward with Duren because he's young, but he's got a long way to go and I don't see much special about him.

[drosestruts]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

It's possible that Coby might not have a strong market around the league. When you look at the list of NBA teams how many of them will have money to pay him? Then out of those teams who has a role for him?

Add in some teams actively trying to shrink tax bills and the market gets even smaller.

[GoBlue72391]

We kinda dont need Coby

We kinda do, or someone like him.

There were so many moments last night that were glaringly obvious that our lack of a go-to scorer was killing us. So many moments where we would have given it to Coby but instead were forced to let our role players and bench players try to create something.

We don't have a single guy we can give the ball to and say go get us a bucket, besides Coby.

We're lucky Duncan Robinson was 1 of 7.

[mack2354]

Devil's Advocate take here. Yes, Giddey had a good game. That last play with Giddey getting the ball knocked out of bounds and then the refs changing it to a foul is what bothers me about him.

A good/great ballhandler doesn't get put in that situation to begin with. Giddey just isn't quick enough or have a good enough handle when defenders are going 100%. NBA players are typically only going 80%. 4th quarters, chippy games, playoff/play-in games and contract years are usually the only times guys are really going all out.

That play was just another example in a long track record of Giddey's history where when good defenders are going 100% at him that he simply can't overcome it. Giddey has talent, is a great passer and has a great knack for getting rebounds. Im not saying Giddey is a "bad" player at all.

The Bulls really should have 1 or possibly 2 ball handling guards on the court with Giddey down the stretch of games and especially in the playoffs.

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Giddey was being guarded ferociously and being fouled all game long. One thing that was obvious from go is that, contrary to common concerns here, Detroit clearly considered Giddey a focal point of their defensive attention. More accurately, the clear focal point. Its a miracle he didn't have more turnovers than he did. Cunningham hammering him from behind on that double team had been happening to Giddey all game long. It might be only time they actually called it a foul, and that required a challenge.

I don't know your prior opinion of Giddey, but am I wrong to guess you are detractor? Describing that play as "Giddey getting the ball knocked out of bounds and then the refs changing to a foul" rather than "Giddey getting fouled hard by Cunningham, causing the ball to roll out of bounds" is odd. He was hacked from behind in real time and the replay confirmed it.

Im not sure why that's odd. I worded it the way it "officially " happened. The refs officially called it out of bounds on Giddey. They then reviewed the play and officially changed it to a personal foul.

As of being a detractor, that depends on your definition of detractor. I think Giddey is an above average to elite passer. I think Giddey is elite at getting rebounds relative to his height. I think Giddey makes players around him better and he CAN be a starter on a championship team.

OTOH, i think he is a below average to terrible defender relative to his height and he is a below average to terrible athlete relative to his height. I don't believe calling out a player's flaws makes someone a detractor. Shaq was a terrible free throw shooter but I also believe he is one of the greatest Centers of all time.

There is no reason to over analyze the first game of the season but I also see no reason to overlook a flaw rather than trying to scheme a way to minimize the impact that flaw going forward. Not saying you specifically but some fans in general take a stance that X player is great so no reason to criticize him so let's focus all the criticism on the Y players to do better in helping X player.

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[Chi town]

Mike DC…

Bingo. Coby will make life easier for the whole team.

Folks need to come around to Buz being our #1. Coby is our #2 and a high volume 3pt shooter than can also get FTs and create offense.

Coby’s gravity is going to make us scary on offense. Court will open up so much. Lots of open 3s and dunks and Giddey, Pat, and Ayo all seem to have a quicker shot and more decisiveness.

[Infinity2152]

Re-signing Coby White is not that diff from re-signing Vucevic. Let's take it for granted that Giddey is our PG for the foreseeable future. We need a player who can play good-great POA defense at SG. Like, period. End of story. Scoring can come from any and every position, but if we're starting Giddey at PG, ideally we have a great defense shooting guard. At least we have Matas and Pat next to Vuc, we have Giddey and Tre Jones next to Coby. Getting a good two=way SG should be high priority.

Re-signing Coby, regardless of how good he is offensively and his fit, starts us in an automatic defensive hole. Which means everybody else pretty much has to be great just for us to break even. POA defense is super important, that how you slow offenses down, kill breaks, not just man defense.

I think Coby's a very good guard relatively speaking and would be fine next to a two--way PG who could handle the toughest guard matchup. That's just not Giddey.