It was a nice run, Jokic

[JellosJigglin]

Those guys on Dallas are wiry and lanky like he is, just shorter. I want to see how he does against centers that can body him. Even Shaq looked human at times when he went up against guys like Arvydas Sabonis and Yao Ming.

Wemby operates a lot on perimeter, there's no way that these heavier guys could defend him. Defensively - we'll see how stronger Wemby scales agains guys like Jokic as I think his defensive performance will improve as well.

So yeah, I agree that Mavs have probably top3 personnel in the league to defend Wemby (AD and Lively + good wing defenders). The problem is: if you put smaller guy on Wemby, he'll shoot over or attack them on mid post; if you put a legit 7-footer on him, he'll attack him on perimeter. Last year - he had issues in doing both of these things (strength and skill) - now it seems that he's comfortable in doing both. Anthony Davis of all people couldn't do anything because Wemby is 5 inches taller, lol, it's a lot - it's like defending KD with 6'6 or 6'7 guy. Now let's wait to what extent he's comfortable in such playing style, it's still a question mark.

He does operate on the perimeter. But Wemby was getting whatever he wanted around the rim last night. AD doesn't look like he's in shape yet. There was a play where Wemby drove right around him from the 3pt line and dunked it without any resistance. I've seen AD keep guards in front of him on that type of play.

A stronger center who can be more physical will sag off him and make him shoot. Obviously, he's shown he can drain 3's and midrange too, but at least he won't get dunk after dunk. He was just doing whatever he wanted last night. I don't know what Dallas' game plan was. Everything was too easy.

He isn't going to average 40 for the season lol. Some teams will have more success against him. I'm just curious to see what their approach will be.

[tsherkin]

Wemby has a chance to be the greatest ever

He does. He's an underrated passer, already a high-impact defender and he's pretty damned good on O already. If he stays healthy, we're all going ot have a blast watching what he can do.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

OKC basically nullified Joker's passing in the playoffs and showed the rest of the league the blueprint to limiting that part of his game. Then, call it what you want, but Alex Caruso limited him one on one. Yeah, a 6'4 guard.

I mean, Westbrook Westbrooking, MPJ being injured, and Christian Braun losing his shot entirely all played a pretty prominent role in allowing that to happen. Context DOES matter when discussing player performance in a short series.

Jokic is the GOAT box score player. But that's not where the conversation is. To fully evaluate offense you should evaluate a players offensive production and the teams overall offense. One guy dominating the ball, creating everything is good for that players stat line but it's actually not ideal for overall offense. I'd take MJ 90s Bulls offenses or Kobe-Shaq offenses over Jokic's Nuggets offense.

That's... remarkably short-sighted, given how much more talent those teams had on them compared to Jokic's Nuggets.

When someone averages 28/14/6 on 48% shooting against arguably the greatest defense of all time with two starters injured and zero depth or shooting around him and people say he was SHUT DOWN, then that’s when you know you’re talking about the GOAT offensive player.

There isn’t a player in the history of the sport who is held to the offensive standard that Jokic is. If Wemby had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series people would be saying he’s the best basketball player of all time. When Jokic does it he was “shut down”. That’s the difference. If Jokic doesn’t average a 30 point triple double on 60% shooting then he had a bad series. That’s how **** good he is.

If prime LeBron or prime Jordan had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series it would be seen as an outstanding performance by them. But when it’s Jokic? Terrible series!

[Handlez]

Lol

[tsherkin]

When someone averages 28/14/6 on 48% shooting against arguably the greatest defense of all time with two starters injured and zero depth or shooting around him and people say he was SHUT DOWN, then that’s when you know you’re talking about the GOAT offensive player.

There isn’t a player in the history of the sport who is held to the offensive standard that Jokic is. If Wemby had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series people would be saying he’s the best basketball player of all time. When Jokic does it he was “shut down”. That’s the difference. If Jokic doesn’t average a 30 point triple double on 60% shooting then he had a bad series. That’s how **** good he is.

If prime LeBron or prime Jordan had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series it would be seen as an outstanding performance by them. But when it’s Jokic? Terrible series!

Indeed. Agenda-driven narrative is always irritating.

[The Servant]

lol I don't know about that just yet. People probably forget what Jokic did last season. Is Wemby going to put up a 30-13-10 season?

Jokic is a regular season player that plays no defense and doesn't impact winning. This is a guy that has won multiple MVP's without being a top 2-3 seed. You worship Harden in center form. Thread is wrong anyway, because we've been living in Luka's timeline, but it looks like we might be entering Wembys now.

How many wins did the Lakers get in last years playoffs compared to the Nuggets? How about the Warriors? Jokic seems to have went further than LeBron, Curry, Jimmy Butler, Luka. He was closer to a Conference Final than the Celtics, Cavs and Bucks. He isn't a bum, he has won a chip and was a game away from the Conference Finals. I don't understand the hate. Not many are saying Wemby isn't a future MVP etc, but they're saying let him play half a season, more than one single game.

Going to be fun watching this team this year.

[tsherkin]

Jokic is a regular season player that plays no defense and doesn't impact winning.

This is a shocking inaccurate and ridiculous contention. Like, it's hard to be any more wrong than this.

[FlyingArrow]

60 years from now when every team has two guys 7-6 or taller, everyone will look back and say... "Yeah, Wemby was great for his era but it was just because he was taller than everyone else. In our day he'd be good, but not the GOAT."

[FlyingArrow]

I'm sure there are some video games that have a 'create-a-player' option, but that wouldn't let you create Wemby because he's too ridiculous to be realistic. Just look back 5 or 20 years.

[tsherkin]

60 years from now when every team has two guys 7-6 or taller, everyone will look back and say... "Yeah, Wemby was great for his era but it was just because he was taller than everyone else. In our day he'd be good, but not the GOAT."

Not to diminish your point, but GOAT is a moving target, right? Players and coaches build on what came before. We select better for athleticism. Diet/nutrition, workouts and all that improve. Gear, courts, strategy... Like, if you look at 40s and 50s ball, it's a joke compared to the game today. And to an extent, you see similar things in the 60s and 70s. There is context to be applied with how the money wasn't in the game and strategy hadn't developed and the 3ball didn't exist, and some with the ABA/NBA split... etc, etc, etc. But that's the point: things are progressive.

So yeah. A guy can hold court over the sport for a while, but it pretty much can't be permanent.

[DaFan334]

Yeah, Joker is washed... He's playing horribly to start the season.

[CodeBreaker]

Aaron Gordon needs a reliable supporting cast

[SpurNani]

OKC basically nullified Joker's passing in the playoffs and showed the rest of the league the blueprint to limiting that part of his game. Then, call it what you want, but Alex Caruso limited him one on one. Yeah, a 6'4 guard.

I mean, Westbrook Westbrooking, MPJ being injured, and Christian Braun losing his shot entirely all played a pretty prominent role in allowing that to happen. Context DOES matter when discussing player performance in a short series.

Jokic is the GOAT box score player. But that's not where the conversation is. To fully evaluate offense you should evaluate a players offensive production and the teams overall offense. One guy dominating the ball, creating everything is good for that players stat line but it's actually not ideal for overall offense. I'd take MJ 90s Bulls offenses or Kobe-Shaq offenses over Jokic's Nuggets offense.

That's... remarkably short-sighted, given how much more talent those teams had on them compared to Jokic's Nuggets.

When someone averages 28/14/6 on 48% shooting against arguably the greatest defense of all time with two starters injured and zero depth or shooting around him and people say he was SHUT DOWN, then that’s when you know you’re talking about the GOAT offensive player.

There isn’t a player in the history of the sport who is held to the offensive standard that Jokic is. If Wemby had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series people would be saying he’s the best basketball player of all time. When Jokic does it he was “shut down”. That’s the difference. If Jokic doesn’t average a 30 point triple double on 60% shooting then he had a bad series. That’s how **** good he is.

If prime LeBron or prime Jordan had those numbers against OKC in a 7 game series it would be seen as an outstanding performance by them. But when it’s Jokic? Terrible series!

Jokic had 2 great games against OKC that inflated his series numbers. But on a game to game basis, he was wildly inconsistent.

Game 3, he was 8-25 including 1-6 in the 4th QTR when his team around him made a 14-2 run including a heroic game tying 3 by Gordon to send it into OT.

Game 4, the man shoots 31% from the floor in a nip and tuck low scoring game. He missed 3 crucial free throws late in the 4th qtr where if he had even been average, Denver would've won and took a commanding 3-1 series lead.

Game 7, we all know what happened with Caruso. Pouted about not getting fouls called. Only takes only one shot in the entire second half. One of the most listless performances from an all time great in Game 7 history.

Maybe you should've WATCHED the series and don't just go off of bulk series stat numbers to fit your "Jokic God" narrative. The guy also turned the ball over 35 times in that series. It was a very forgettable series for Jokic outside of those two monster games.

[tsherkin]

Maybe you should've WATCHED the series and don't just go off of bulk series stat numbers to fit your "Jokic God" narrative. The guy also turned the ball over 35 times in that series. It was a very forgettable series for Jokic outside of those two monster games.

Context. No one shooting well around him and his third scorer completely AWOL due to injury. And his 2nd scorer playing like dog-ass. Against an ATG defense.

For point of comparison, Michael Jordan against the Knicks. He scored 31.3 ppg, but at 53.9% TS. That was 0.6% WORSE than playoff league average, and 4% worse than his regular season average. And he had a 9/25 game. He had a brilliant Game 7, but he also had his team coming through around him which allowed the team to weather his rougher scoring series. 4 years later, also against the Knicks, he had a similar performance: 36.0 ppg on 53.4% TS, which was 0.2% worse than playoff league average and 4.8% worse than his regular season average. And he had a 7/23 game (30.4% FG) in a game which they won.

People have relatively short memories when it doesn't justify their opinion, and we see that a lot. Not just with Jokic, but with everyone. Jordan is held up as this incredible standard, and he was amazing, but people forget all the times he shot like absolute dog-ass in the playoffs. It's like they want to erase the fact that he ever had a rough series. 96-98, he had some pretty forgettable scoring performances beyond volume, with the team relying heavily on possession control to win the games.

Things to remember.

If Jokic's teammates had come through around him, the Nuggets would have won that series and it would have been entered into myth in a fashion similar to how everyone likes to forget the little imperfections in Jordan's career all these decades later.

[EvanZ]

Looks like Luka gave his leftovers to Jokic.

[Optms]

Joker meanwhile looks out of shape. Well, he always does. But especially last night. Looks like it effected him.

[Godymas]

This is a ridiculous comment. Jokic has been doing things for years that no other 7 footer has done on the offensive side as well as putting up stat lines that no other player has done, period. It took the avengers in team USA to take him out of the Olympics by adding Embiid.

There is no need to detract from Jokic's greatness to prop up Wemby.

They have both done stuff no one has seen, even if you think Wemby is more impressive.

There are many big men that are molded like Jokic. Jokic just happened to find himself in the right system to take advantage of it. Michael Malone is more important for Jokic than Jokic. Jokic’s style has existed in Europe for years. Wemby’s style is basically the idealized version of how to play basketball. Shooting, finishing, isolation, he’s shown flashes of being a passer too. On the defensive end, he might be the greatest.

So you think the only difference between Jokic and some run of the mill Euro big is… Michael Malone?

Absolutely unhinged take.

run of the mill Euro big? Is that what you think Arvydas Sabonis is?

[prime1time]

Maybe you should've WATCHED the series and don't just go off of bulk series stat numbers to fit your "Jokic God" narrative. The guy also turned the ball over 35 times in that series. It was a very forgettable series for Jokic outside of those two monster games.

Context. No one shooting well around him and his third scorer completely AWOL due to injury. And his 2nd scorer playing like dog-ass. Against an ATG defense.

For point of comparison, Michael Jordan against the Knicks. He scored 31.3 ppg, but at 53.9% TS. That was 0.6% WORSE than playoff league average, and 4% worse than his regular season average. And he had a 9/25 game. He had a brilliant Game 7, but he also had his team coming through around him which allowed the team to weather his rougher scoring series. 4 years later, also against the Knicks, he had a similar performance: 36.0 ppg on 53.4% TS, which was 0.2% worse than playoff league average and 4.8% worse than his regular season average. And he had a 7/23 game (30.4% FG) in a game which they won.

People have relatively short memories when it doesn't justify their opinion, and we see that a lot. Not just with Jokic, but with everyone. Jordan is held up as this incredible standard, and he was amazing, but people forget all the times he shot like absolute dog-ass in the playoffs. It's like they want to erase the fact that he ever had a rough series. 96-98, he had some pretty forgettable scoring performances beyond volume, with the team relying heavily on possession control to win the games.

Things to remember.

If Jokic's teammates had come through around him, the Nuggets would have won that series and it would have been entered into myth in a fashion similar to how everyone likes to forget the little imperfections in Jordan's career all these decades later.

For the first 5 years of Jokic's career he averaged 17/9.6/5.5. So for half his career he put up pedesterian numbers and had a limited impact. How should that impact this conversation or should it not impact the conversation at all?

[Godymas]

Jokic losing with a 50 point teammate like that last night is a stain on his legacy.

[prime1time]

Windhorst says Wemby is 7'6/7''7. You're not stopping this guy close to the rim. But you also can't foul him. Imo, prime Wemby will simply score easier than Jokic. I don't see anyone stopping him. And the impact that his presence will cause on the court will negate the best defenses. That's the difference between him and Jokic. OKC was still OKC guarding Jokic. Until I see a defense shut Wemby down without compromising the integrity of the defense, I have a hard time saying he's not a potential offensive GOAT. We have to be honest. Offensive GOAT isn't about box scores, it's about impact. If you have a player that's so unstoppable that you have to compromise your defensive integrity - i.e. double team all the time, foul all the time - then that's a player that should be in the offensive GOAT conversation. Shaq should be the offensive GOAT but he couldn't make free throws so at the end of games he dissapeared. Wemby on the other hand makes free throws at 80% plus. I hope Wemby adds Kareem's sky hook.