PG - Matas good

[sco]

It was kind of amazing to see arguably the two best setup floor generals we've had in the modern era in Giddey and Jones orchestrate things. These guys are BOTH better as pure points than perhaps any player I can recall for the Bulls. Over Derrick Rose, Pippen, etc. Not as players of course, but as offensive quarterbacks.

Lonzo was ridiculous orchestrating on offense, with more "challenging" teammates, before his leg stopped working. But yes, its nice to have an actual 5 man offense operated by a point guard rather than watching the same 3 guys take turns launching shots.

I liked Lonzo a lot as a player and he was a very good passer especially starting breaks, but IMO he can't hold a candle to Giddey or Jones in half court orchestration (or a number of other guys like Pippen, Rose, etc).

Lonzo is a master of the full court pass, and elite defender 1-4, WAS a great 3pt shooter (unsure if still true), but he was abysmal either scoring or dribbling inside the arc.

[Indomitable]

I forgot about my absolutley favorite part of the game last night:

Stacey and Adam talking about why Malik Beasley is no longer with the Pistons, then going into a promo for sports gambling

Was perfection and got a big laugh out of me.

I had the game on mute most of the way. Was so much less aggravating. The one time I unmuted I heard Amin giggling at non sense and King talking about feeding Vuc. Back to mute.

The other broadcast is better. People love low IQ sounding clown though.

I am not saying Stacey and Amin are stupid. They just a target audience.


What piss me off is how they would rather finish their lame stories instead of calling the game.

Use the other broadcast it is almost always better.

[Indomitable]

Lonzo was ridiculous orchestrating on offense, with more "challenging" teammates, before his leg stopped working. But yes, its nice to have an actual 5 man offense operated by a point guard rather than watching the same 3 guys take turns launching shots.

I liked Lonzo a lot as a player and he was a very good passer especially starting breaks, but IMO he can't hold a candle to Giddey or Jones in half court orchestration (or a number of other guys like Pippen, Rose, etc).

Lonzo is a master of the full court pass, and elite defender 1-4, WAS a great 3pt shooter (unsure if still true), but he was abysmal either scoring or dribbling inside the arc.

Lonzo is no longer a elite defender. He is a solid on ball defender. He is elite at team defense.

Still before the injury he could guard 1-4 and was good.

[Indomitable]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

Reality is going to hit hard.

[cruwinas]

We kinda dont need Coby

I dont agree fully with this. Not big fan of Coby where he wants to be most paid guy on a team. I dont think he is anywhere good as Giddey and I dont think he should be paid even close to what Giddey makes. But certainly at decent price for his prime years in different role I am willing bring him back. He should stop trying be something he is not (franchise player, big role and easy on trigger) but this is not just Coby issue, this is Billy Donovan issue. I think he should be making Kevin Huerter money and play his role.

And lets be real nobody is gonna go in FA and bet on Coby White being a their missing piece. He is not that guy.

Reality is going to hit hard.

Young team, long season. Nobody has any clue how the team will look in couple years. Keep Matas, Giddey and the rest... Actually, couple trades and Bulls might look very decent in very weak East Conference.
For sure - no rush. Matas and Giddey getting better would change the whole layout.
Giddey and his turnovers with 'decision making" - big area to improve. 2+ dunks for Matas per game plus 3+ lay-ups, 2+ 3pointers, ~4 free throws... Is it far fetched? Nope. But that's around 20 points Plus add Matas defensive awareness. 2 blocks per game with changing of possession - achievable. I am not flying high, but if Matas plays 30+ minutes per game, it's like a bottom line for me (I am eternally practical optimist ).
When a team has at least 2 young stud NBA starters, to find surrounding guys around them is a pleasure for any team manager. Especially in a big market as Chicago.
The league expanded and talent level of the players got very diluted. Young guys after their rookie contracts done look for any chance to escape.
No need to over analyze the world of bball. Just current pro teams in the beautiful Chicago city are, well, "not so fun", maybe time came for Bulls to rise and become relevant again?

[eierluke]

Re-signing Coby White is not that diff from re-signing Vucevic. Let's take it for granted that Giddey is our PG for the foreseeable future. We need a player who can play good-great POA defense at SG. Like, period. End of story. Scoring can come from any and every position, but if we're starting Giddey at PG, ideally we have a great defense shooting guard. At least we have Matas and Pat next to Vuc, we have Giddey and Tre Jones next to Coby. Getting a good two=way SG should be high priority.

Re-signing Coby, regardless of how good he is offensively and his fit, starts us in an automatic defensive hole. Which means everybody else pretty much has to be great just for us to break even. POA defense is super important, that how you slow offenses down, kill breaks, not just man defense.

I think Coby's a very good guard relatively speaking and would be fine next to a two--way PG who could handle the toughest guard matchup. That's just not Giddey.

In difference to MJ or D.Ros, Coby is not the guard to would start a franchise upon.
But I'd try to resign him.
I dissagree especially regarding defensive limitations: Jones is a very good defender and Ayo is a good defender. Our deep at the guard/wing positions offers us a lot of combinations to face different opponent match ups.

[kodo]

Lonzo was ridiculous orchestrating on offense, with more "challenging" teammates, before his leg stopped working. But yes, its nice to have an actual 5 man offense operated by a point guard rather than watching the same 3 guys take turns launching shots.

I liked Lonzo a lot as a player and he was a very good passer especially starting breaks, but IMO he can't hold a candle to Giddey or Jones in half court orchestration (or a number of other guys like Pippen, Rose, etc).

Lonzo is a master of the full court pass, and elite defender 1-4, WAS a great 3pt shooter (unsure if still true), but he was abysmal either scoring or dribbling inside the arc.

Agreed, that's why he looked good on the Bulls and was considered a bust on two other teams. Bulls properly used him, which was not as the playmaker in the half court. Yes he made great outlet passes but so does Kevin Love, doesn't make Love a PG. But whenever we went into the half court, the plays were run by Derozan and Lonzo turned into a spot up shooter.

Lonzo can't run a half court offense because he's abysmal as a scorer, even factoring in the 3s. He's no threat, so he can't draw any defenders and get a man open. Just ignore him and double someone else or in general just pack in the paint. He's best as an Alex Caruso type identity, there for defense, occasional wide open 3. And Caruso types are hugely valuable so no knock on Lonzo, just had to be used correctly.

[kodo]

On whether we need Coby (I assume to how good Tre is looking), Coby starting instead of Tre would have been interesting.

Vuc scored because we had two pass-first guys out there. He had 11 made FGs. He was assisted on 11 of them. 6 of those were Giddey, 4 from Tre. Those two guys did the job of warping the defense, and Vuc was their primary target to get open. Without Tre I would expect Vuc to score less but Coby to score more than Tre. Maybe a wash.

The other huge factor in the win was perimeter D. Cade, Harris, and Robinson each shot 40% TS which was horrifically bad, and Cade is basically a superstar who got serious MVP votes. The perimeter D was primarily a mix of Tre, Giddey, and Okoro. I think Coby in for Tre hurts the D.

I guess if Tre can get full starter minutes off the bench along with starting Coby you just get the best of both worlds, but that doesn't seem possible with such a guard heavy roster.

[Jvaughn]

Alright, just researched the game, and I can't believe I'm saying this......playing Dalen Terry those 6 minutes was the right decision. Ugh. Giddey was in foul trouble, so they needed to have a guard to come in, as we're already shorthanded. My first thought was "play Javon then." But since Cade was playing PG, that means it's mismatch central as soon as he steps on the court. We needed to play someone with length who can also handle the ball a bit. While I would've love to see Noa, this wasn't the time to squeeze him in some pity minutes.

That being said, Dalen was horrible during his time. The sooner Coby can get back the better. Won't have to see Dalen anymore barring injuries.

[drosestruts]

On whether we need Coby (I assume to how good Tre is looking), Coby starting instead of Tre would have been interesting.

Vuc scored because we had two pass-first guys out there. He had 11 made FGs. He was assisted on 11 of them. 6 of those were Giddey, 4 from Tre. Those two guys did the job of warping the defense, and Vuc was their primary target to get open. Without Tre I would expect Vuc to score less but Coby to score more than Tre. Maybe a wash.

The other huge factor in the win was perimeter D. Cade, Harris, and Robinson each shot 40% TS which was horrifically bad, and Cade is basically a superstar who got serious MVP votes. The perimeter D was primarily a mix of Tre, Giddey, and Okoro. I think Coby in for Tre hurts the D.

I guess if Tre can get full starter minutes off the bench along with starting Coby you just get the best of both worlds, but that doesn't seem possible with such a guard heavy roster.

I think you're last paragraph is exactly what should happen. Giddey, Jones, and Coby can all play together and all, in my opinion, deserve starter level minutes.

The player this impacts the most is Ayo. I know Ayo has his fans here, I have below all three of these players in terms of impact, and I think all three deserve more minutes at this point.

It's effectively a three-guard rotation with spot minutes for a 4th guy getting 10-12 minutes a night.

[Infinity2152]

Alright, just researched the game, and I can't believe I'm saying this......playing Dalen Terry those 6 minutes was the right decision. Ugh. Giddey was in foul trouble, so they needed to have a guard to come in, as we're already shorthanded. My first thought was "play Javon then." But since Cade was playing PG, that means it's mismatch central as soon as he steps on the court. We needed to play someone with length who can also handle the ball a bit. While I would've love to see Noa, this wasn't the time to squeeze him in some pity minutes.

That being said, Dalen was horrible during his time. The sooner Coby can get back the better. Won't have to see Dalen anymore barring injuries.

Healthy guys to play PG: Giddey, Jones, Ayo, Terry, Carter
Healthy guys to play SG: Huerter, Ayo, Okoro, Terry
Healthy guys to play SF: Huerter, Okoro, Williams, Phillips, Essengue

Giddey played 29 minutes, and Tre Jones played 32. We didn't need Terry. Ayo played 27 minutes, he can guard Cade probably better than most other Bulls, if not all of them.

[cruwinas]

Matas played an A game. When he plays like that, it's a much happier and better Bulls team as a whole.
Vooch had an A+++ game, though that not necessarily makes same impact as a good Matas game.
Basically, if at least 2 of Giddey, Matas, Coby and Vooch has an A- or a better game, chances for Bulls being closer to get a W increase by a margin

[coldfish]

Matas played an A game. When he plays like that, it's a much happier and better Bulls team as a whole.
Vooch had an A+++ game, though that not necessarily makes same impact as a good Matas game.
Basically, if at least 2 of Giddey, Matas, Coby and Vooch has an A- or a better game, chances for Bulls being closer to get a W increase by a margin

This whole season is basically going to like this. On games where most of the team is off, they are going to lose. For the most part I think this is going to be an 0.500 team. That said, I think that the depth might pick up a few games here and there while their seeming newfound willingness to fight will pick up a few more. I'm thinking mid 40's right now for wins, barring a major injury.

[Chi town]

Matas played an A game. When he plays like that, it's a much happier and better Bulls team as a whole.
Vooch had an A+++ game, though that not necessarily makes same impact as a good Matas game.
Basically, if at least 2 of Giddey, Matas, Coby and Vooch has an A- or a better game, chances for Bulls being closer to get a W increase by a margin

This whole season is basically going to like this. On games where most of the team is off, they are going to lose. For the most part I think this is going to be an 0.500 team. That said, I think that the depth might pick up a few games here and there while their seeming newfound willingness to fight will pick up a few more. I'm thinking mid 40's right now for wins, barring a major injury.

That’s where I’m at too. 6th ish seed

[Seccci]

On whether we need Coby (I assume to how good Tre is looking), Coby starting instead of Tre would have been interesting.

Vuc scored because we had two pass-first guys out there. He had 11 made FGs. He was assisted on 11 of them. 6 of those were Giddey, 4 from Tre. Those two guys did the job of warping the defense, and Vuc was their primary target to get open. Without Tre I would expect Vuc to score less but Coby to score more than Tre. Maybe a wash.

The other huge factor in the win was perimeter D. Cade, Harris, and Robinson each shot 40% TS which was horrifically bad, and Cade is basically a superstar who got serious MVP votes. The perimeter D was primarily a mix of Tre, Giddey, and Okoro. I think Coby in for Tre hurts the D.

I guess if Tre can get full starter minutes off the bench along with starting Coby you just get the best of both worlds, but that doesn't seem possible with such a guard heavy roster.

The good news in all of this ( sort of), is that Billy Donovan has no problem going VUC and 4 guards lineup, heck im very positive that he even did Pat at 5, another forward and than 3 guards. He used to do that even before with Lonzo, though we all know by now how it ended.

Bulls team construction is wierd now, few young potential studs and than a lot of mid players that all kind of can play 20 minutes and contribute on offense or defense but not really both on high level.
That kind of goes against everything we know works in bball lineups- quality over quantity, better have one/two stars that are affecting play on both offense and defense surrounded by role players.
Saying that, we will get plenty of frustrating games where this mid player should have sit in favor of the other one sitting on the bench- I don't envy billy this season, he will be second guessed every loss- why he play pat and not Huerter? Why not more tre instead of ayo should have played Collins more than VUC., less Coby when he cold etc...

[Jcool0]

On whether we need Coby (I assume to how good Tre is looking), Coby starting instead of Tre would have been interesting.

Vuc scored because we had two pass-first guys out there. He had 11 made FGs. He was assisted on 11 of them. 6 of those were Giddey, 4 from Tre. Those two guys did the job of warping the defense, and Vuc was their primary target to get open. Without Tre I would expect Vuc to score less but Coby to score more than Tre. Maybe a wash.

The other huge factor in the win was perimeter D. Cade, Harris, and Robinson each shot 40% TS which was horrifically bad, and Cade is basically a superstar who got serious MVP votes. The perimeter D was primarily a mix of Tre, Giddey, and Okoro. I think Coby in for Tre hurts the D.

I guess if Tre can get full starter minutes off the bench along with starting Coby you just get the best of both worlds, but that doesn't seem possible with such a guard heavy roster.

FWIW he got 7 MVP votes not sure that really makes him a serous candidate. He had 21 points on 43% shooting with 9 assists and 8 TOVs vs Houston. So while better it's not like he's off to a great start to the year.

[DuckIII]

Alright, just researched the game, and I can't believe I'm saying this......playing Dalen Terry those 6 minutes was the right decision. Ugh. Giddey was in foul trouble, so they needed to have a guard to come in, as we're already shorthanded. My first thought was "play Javon then." But since Cade was playing PG, that means it's mismatch central as soon as he steps on the court. We needed to play someone with length who can also handle the ball a bit. While I would've love to see Noa, this wasn't the time to squeeze him in some pity minutes.

That being said, Dalen was horrible during his time. The sooner Coby can get back the better. Won't have to see Dalen anymore barring injuries.

Healthy guys to play PG: Giddey, Jones, Ayo, Terry, Carter
Healthy guys to play SG: Huerter, Ayo, Okoro, Terry
Healthy guys to play SF: Huerter, Okoro, Williams, Phillips, Essengue

Giddey played 29 minutes, and Tre Jones played 32. We didn't need Terry. Ayo played 27 minutes, he can guard Cade probably better than most other Bulls, if not all of them.

With as guard and wing heavy as we are, coupled with Terry only being in the NBA in year 4 because we reached outrageously to draft him in the first round, the only time Terry would need to play is if we are down to 5 active players.

[cocktailswith_2short]

Someone going to make an Orlando game thread ?