Ivey and Duren Extensions

[Kalamazoo317]

I want Duren on this team. I can't see 30 million per being his market. I don't think we should lose a bidding war against ourselves, so I think we made the right move. Players almost always lose in restricted free agency, so the franchis would be foolish not to use that tool in a situation like this.

[NYPiston]

[

Nice try. Your ilk is well documented. No sense in arguing, when the "facts" are actually opinions.

My stance, as it's always been, is I am not going to hard judge a player until about their 5th year. (Hayes is the perfect example, as is Billups)Duren is 21(22 in just a few days) and the way people are talking, its already time to bail.

You can't build a team with all-stars at every position. Having Ausar in the group, means he is going to cover up a whole host of defensive deficiencies from other players, lessening the need for Duren(or any other center for that matter)to be Wilt on the block.

It what seems to be glossed over, is his fit with Cade. It cannot be hand-waived away. Best damn P&R duo in the league, and a nightmare for teams to contend with. Thats actually a positive, not a negative. He also sets damn good screens.

Would I like a Center that blocks 3 shots, is an amazing three-point shooter, rebounds at a great clip, and plays lock down defense all over the court? Yeah, but guess what? That guy doesn't exist.

I like Duren. He works for this team, and to me is worth 30per.

His fit with Cade is that he can catch and convert lobs on the pick and roll. He can rebound well when he puts his mind to it and that's it, that's all he offers. He creates very little offense outside of dunking and he's below average defensively, I'd take a player that is even average defensive and/or can stretch the defense just a bit. You're saying he's worth a contract more than Hartenstein and Turner who are far more consistent, better players. Hell, Turner has had multiple career best games up against Duren.

There's just no justification for paying him anywhere near $30m at this point. The Pistons have a player who makes half that who is better than Duren and is the one the coach trusts to be out there down the stretch of games over Duren, that in itself is telling.

[Kalamazoo317]

Cade and Duren have legit offensive chemistry and Duren has flashed playmaking and self-creation on offense a bit better than you're giving him credit for here. He's a better *offensive* fit with Cade than anyone else we have on the roster and consistently shows the ability to vertically stretch the defense and give Cade a valuable outlet. There's real value there, don't sleep on it.
The defense is shaky and hopefully improves. This year will be a big testing ground.
What I've described above still isn't a $30 million/year player in the current market, though, imo.

[oldncreaky]

Cade and Duren have legit offensive chemistry and Duren has flashed playmaking and self-creation on offense a bit better than you're giving him credit for here. He's a better *offensive* fit with Cade than anyone else we have on the roster and consistently shows the ability to vertically stretch the defense and give Cade a valuable outlet. There's real value there, don't sleep on it.
The defense is shaky and hopefully improves. This year will be a big testing ground.
What I've described above still isn't a $30 million/year player in the current market, though, imo.

Agree. I'd also note that Duren is a good and improving pick-setter, and that too is a critical role for a team relying on Cade PnRs to generate much of the attack.

But I wouldn't want to pay him more than an average starting C, because I think even that much is hoping and projecting that he develops into a significantly better player than he is now. Looking at Spotrac, that aligns with a contract around 12-15% of the cap, which would put him in the Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford range of recent C extensions.

[the_l_train]

Cade and Duren have legit offensive chemistry and Duren has flashed playmaking and self-creation on offense a bit better than you're giving him credit for here. He's a better *offensive* fit with Cade than anyone else we have on the roster and consistently shows the ability to vertically stretch the defense and give Cade a valuable outlet. There's real value there, don't sleep on it.
The defense is shaky and hopefully improves. This year will be a big testing ground.
What I've described above still isn't a $30 million/year player in the current market, though, imo.

Agree. I'd also note that Duren is a good and improving pick-setter, and that too is a critical role for a team relying on Cade PnRs to generate much of the attack.

But I wouldn't want to pay him more than an average starting C, because I think even that much is hoping and projecting that he develops into a significantly better player than he is now. Looking at Spotrac, that aligns with a contract around 12-15% of the cap, which would put him in the Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford range of recent C extensions.

I think that Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford caliber of Center is reasonable for Duren....Zubac being on the high end, and Duren probably slightly behind Poetl but ahead of Gafford overall.

[Crymson]

I think that Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford caliber of Center is reasonable for Duren....Zubac being on the high end, and Duren probably slightly behind Poetl but ahead of Gafford overall.

No offense, but are you serious? These guys are all hugely ahead of Duren defensively and not far at all behind him offensively (Zubac not at all so), and defense is where traditional bigs need to find their primary impact. Gafford started for a finals team two seasons ago; as of last season, Duren gets turned into pavement by good offenses and falls far short of having the ability to execute that role.

I know I've asked this a bazillion times, but could you point out any traditional bigs who are bad on defense yet were valued by teams in contract discussions? Or in the draft anytime recently, for that matter?

[Snakebites]

I think that Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford caliber of Center is reasonable for Duren....Zubac being on the high end, and Duren probably slightly behind Poetl but ahead of Gafford overall.

No offense, but are you serious? These guys are all hugely ahead of Duren defensively and not far at all behind him offensively, and defense is where traditional bigs need to find their primary impact. Gafford started for a finals team two seasons ago; as of last season, Duren gets turned into pavement by good offenses and falls far short of having the ability to execute that role.

I know I've asked this a bazillion times, but could you point out any traditional bigs who are bad on defense yet were valued by teams in contract discussions? Or in the draft anytime recently, for that matter?

Zubac is a particularly wild comparison.

Worth noting he’s actually underpaid now.

[Crymson]

Zubac is a particularly wild comparison.

For sure. I'm not sure if it's flown below the radar for the average fan just how good Zubac was last season, but playing All-Defensive-caliber defense while serving as a strong roll man and decent interior passer and being one of the league's best post scorers and rebounders places him several universes above Duren at this point.

Worth noting he’s actually underpaid now.

Very much so. If he keeps up last season's level of performance, he'll have one of the team-friendliest contracts in the league.

[Snakebites]

The Rockets have built their big lineup "the right way" too. They've got multiple guys who despite their size are more than capable of doing things normally attributed to smaller perimeter players.

[the_l_train]

I think that Poeltl/Zubac/Gafford caliber of Center is reasonable for Duren....Zubac being on the high end, and Duren probably slightly behind Poetl but ahead of Gafford overall.

No offense, but are you serious? These guys are all hugely ahead of Duren defensively and not far at all behind him offensively (Zubac not at all so), and defense is where traditional bigs need to find their primary impact. Gafford started for a finals team two seasons ago; as of last season, Duren gets turned into pavement by good offenses and falls far short of having the ability to execute that role.

I know I've asked this a bazillion times, but could you point out any traditional bigs who are bad on defense yet were valued by teams in contract discussions? Or in the draft anytime recently, for that matter?

Yes I'm serious. Gafford can't stay on the floor. Period.

Duren has better availability, and averages more points, rebounds, assists, steals and shoots a better FT%. Gafford averages a whopping 0.5 blocks more. Yes he is a better defender, but overall I give Duren the edge.

Guaransheed that Duren will get a bigger contract and holds more trade value than Gafford (who Wizards gave up on and traded to Mavs for essentially nothing). The availability piece is key here....Gaffords last 3 seasons: 57 games, 29 games, 45 games...saying Duren is ahead of Gafford is not the travesty you think it is.

Yes, Zubac is better (as I said) --- and to answer your question, does Nikola Vucevic count? Don't think of him as a defender, and Bulls valued him enough to extend him. Or is he not "traditional" enough?

[Crymson]

Yes I'm serious. Gafford can't stay on the floor. Period.

These discussions are going to be pointless if you can't be bothered to check the stats. Gafford has played 72 or more games in three of the past four seasons. He has played more games than Duren has across Duren's three seasons in the NBA.

The availability piece is key here....Gaffords last 3 seasons: 57 games, 29 games, 45 games...saying Duren is ahead of Gafford is not the travesty you think it is.

Gafford's last three seasons: 57 games, 74 games, 78 games. The 29 and 45 you've got there are the two separate teams he played for two seasons ago, and they total to 74 games he played during that season.

Duren has better availability

Inaccurate.

and averages more points, rebounds, assists, steals and shoots a better FT%. Gafford averages a whopping 0.5 blocks more.

Yay for raw stats. Remember when I mentioned defense? There's a pretty huge gap there.

Yes he is a better defender, but overall I give Duren the edge.

"Better defender" is understating it quite a bit. You've more or less argued that Duren is better because he has better raw stats. Did all those years watching Drummond not indicate that judging players solely on the basis of raw stats may produce a very incomplete picture of things?

Guaransheed that Duren will get a bigger contract and holds more trade value than Gafford (who Wizards gave up on and traded to Mavs for essentially nothing).

You do realize that he was traded for a first-round pick, right? And again... good enough to start for a finals team.

Yes, Zubac is better (as I said) --- and to answer your question, does Nikola Vucevic count? Don't think of him as a defender, and Bulls valued him enough to extend him. Or is he not "traditional" enough?

All these discussions and you've still refused to absorb what a traditional big is? Why is that? I'll say it one last time: a guy who can't shoot, can't reliably create offense, can score efficiently only around the rim, and needs to have his offense created for him by his teammates. Does that sound like Vucevic to you?

[tmorgan]

Better save all that money for Ron Holland anyway. Ooooo boy.

[Neptune]

Better save all that money for Ron Holland anyway. Ooooo boy.

First it was Hayes, now on to Holland.

I like Holland and want him on this team, but making him a priority is crazy as hell!

[tmorgan]

Better save all that money for Ron Holland anyway. Ooooo boy.

First it was Hayes, now on to Holland.

I like Holland and want him on this team, but making him a priority is crazy as hell!

What’s crazy as hell is your obsession with Ivey. He had 30 games as a good shooter, that’s it. Nothing else about his three years here has been remarkable.

[the_l_train]

Yes I'm serious. Gafford can't stay on the floor. Period.

These discussions are going to be pointless if you can't be bothered to check the stats. Gafford has played 72 or more games in three of the past four seasons. He has played more games than Duren has across Duren's three seasons in the NBA.

The availability piece is key here....Gaffords last 3 seasons: 57 games, 29 games, 45 games...saying Duren is ahead of Gafford is not the travesty you think it is.

Gafford's last three seasons: 57 games, 74 games, 78 games. The 29 and 45 you've got there are the two separate teams he played for two seasons ago, and they total to 74 games he played during that season.

Duren has better availability

Inaccurate.

and averages more points, rebounds, assists, steals and shoots a better FT%. Gafford averages a whopping 0.5 blocks more.

Yay for raw stats. Remember when I mentioned defense? There's a pretty huge gap there.

Yes he is a better defender, but overall I give Duren the edge.

"Better defender" is understating it quite a bit. You've more or less argued that Duren is better because he has better raw stats. Did all those years watching Drummond not indicate that judging players solely on the basis of raw stats may produce a very incomplete picture of things?

Guaransheed that Duren will get a bigger contract and holds more trade value than Gafford (who Wizards gave up on and traded to Mavs for essentially nothing).

You do realize that he was traded for a first-round pick, right? And again... good enough to start for a finals team.

Yes, Zubac is better (as I said) --- and to answer your question, does Nikola Vucevic count? Don't think of him as a defender, and Bulls valued him enough to extend him. Or is he not "traditional" enough?

All these discussions and you've still refused to absorb what a traditional big is? Why is that? I'll say it one last time: a guy who can't shoot, can't reliably create offense, can score efficiently only around the rim, and needs to have his offense created for him by his teammates. Does that sound like Vucevic to you?

You got me there, dude. I clearly half assed looked at those game played numbers. Had this idea Gafford was injury prone based on his first couple seasons.

I’m a grown ass man who can admit when he’s wrong. But I’m still taking Duren over Gafford.

[Neptune]

Better save all that money for Ron Holland anyway. Ooooo boy.

First it was Hayes, now on to Holland.

I like Holland and want him on this team, but making him a priority is crazy as hell!

What’s crazy as hell is your obsession with Ivey. He had 30 games as a good shooter, that’s it. Nothing else about his three years here has been remarkable.

Huh? I didnt even mention Ivey.

But this craziness had me lose sleep multiple nights! When you became Hayes Sr and thought Hayes in the starting lineup was a good idea. Your opinion on talent on this team took a huge hit below the belt after that. Please allow Holland to grow, likely as 6th man material, not as a starter. Especially not now.

[whitehops]

all i know is the stewart deal is looking amazing right now compared to other deals back then. we get one of the best defensive centers in the league who is now given the green light to shoot 3s for $15M for the next three seasons.

with teams trying to scale back salaries with the aprons and players still wanting the "old" salaries we have a pretty nice contingency plan with stewart in case negotiations with players like duren's representation get out of hand.

considering you don't really want either being a full-time starter i think they're a darn good duo to work with going forward but if duren's camp wants $30M instead of the $20M which is closer to his value then we at least have stew to get quality minutes from as we find another center.

[Crymson]

You got me there, dude. I clearly half assed looked at those game played numbers. Had this idea Gafford was injury prone based on his first couple seasons.

I’m a grown ass man who can admit when he’s wrong. But I’m still taking Duren over Gafford.

You haven't addressed anything I've said outside of that one aspect. You've just admitted that you were wrong about that one thing -- and left aside that it was one of the chief bases of your argument in the first place -- and then repeated yourself.

[tmorgan]

First it was Hayes, now on to Holland.

I like Holland and want him on this team, but making him a priority is crazy as hell!

What’s crazy as hell is your obsession with Ivey. He had 30 games as a good shooter, that’s it. Nothing else about his three years here has been remarkable.

Huh? I didnt even mention Ivey.

But this craziness had me lose sleep multiple nights! When you became Hayes Sr and thought Hayes in the starting lineup was a good idea. Your opinion on talent on this team took a huge hit below the belt after that. Please allow Holland to grow, likely as 6th man material, not as a starter. Especially not now.

You talk about Ivey constantly. ‘Just don’t jump on the bandwagon when he’s back and averaging 20 ppg… blah blah blah.’ Same tired ass garbage, week after week, year after year. I could list a whole bunch of terrible predictions you made, from both this handle and the one you had before you got banned, but I assume people already know you’re a blowhard.

If you want to be an insufferable fool and misrepresent things I’ve said, I’ve got a present for you, courtesy of yourself:

I don't think of Drummond like a couple of poster here think of him. I see a bigger and more athletic Ben Wallace. If you think that's worth the max then I'll probably agree with you.

(and)

We lose Drummond, I'm gone! Plenty of fans will leave too!

Props to you, you did leave for about three years. You weren’t posting here for all the Killian Hayes drama, and yet think you have the right to criticize me for holding out hope for a little too long — when you did the exact same thing for Drummond.

Honestly, man, you need to look in the mirror. You are and always have been a terrible, reactive poster, full of goofy, unrealistic ideas and asinine predictions. We’re all wrong some of the time, that’s true, but you’re wrong all of the time. Quite the talent you have.

If you want more, I’m saving some.

[MrBigShot]

Better save all that money for Ron Holland anyway. Ooooo boy.

First it was Hayes, now on to Holland.

I like Holland and want him on this team, but making him a priority is crazy as hell!

Holland is legit. He's got good size, is a good athlete, has good touch around the rim and shown flashes of being a capable 3pt shooter. His motor is great and he plays with zero fear.

He's a guy that I could see making a few all star games if things click.

I like Duren and hope he's a piston for a long time. But he is not a 30 mil+ year player and shouldn't take for granted how big of a luxury playing with Cade.