What's Up with Teams not Playing Point Guards Anymore?

[ShootersShoot]

Not really recently, but rondo, jason williams, kidd won chips and had very traditional point guard skillsets. I think the ideal archetype nowadays is a guy who can get 20+ ppg and like 6-8apg while not being a sieve on defense.

[og15]

Teams like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and even the Lakers are opting out of playing point guards - is there a reason for this?

Cooper Flagg, Amen Thompson, Devin Booker, and even Luka Doncic aren't PGs. Why are they playing that position then?

What position do you think Luka has been his whole career? Since when was he not a primary playmaker/shot creator, isn't that the role that the "point guard" exhibits. Also what is Gabe Vincent doing on the court? He's guarding the opposing PG's, so he's playing the defensive role of the PG while Luka is playing the offense one.

With this logic, Clippers aren't playing a PG since Harden is starting.


If you have a guy who can play that offensive role, what exactly are you worried about in putting a smaller guy who can do those things too?

The other teams are experimenting, we'll see if it works and how long they go with it.

Because there aren't any real point guards anymore aside from CP3 and Hali. The top PGs in the league are really just score first combo guards with mediocre playmaking.

What's a "real" PG? That would be the question. Even if we go back to what people try to call a real PG, we find variety in those players too.

Young, Harden, Garland, Van Vleet, TJ MCConnel, Tyus Jones, Lonzo (when he plays), etc, these guys are all "real PG's" too

[Scalabrine]

Point guards are typically the worst defenders on the floor. If you can replace your 6'0 guy with a 6'5 guy who's better at defense, that's a huge improvement on that end.

That, and you have way more 6'5+ that can dribble the ball and facilitate along with a bunch of teams are running more movement and motion based offenses where everyone needs to be able to make players competently.

[nate33]

Teams have so much spacing now that it's easy to mismatch hunt. Just bring the opposition's worst defender into a PnR action while everyone else spreads the floor to get the switch. Now you are pitting your best offensive creator against the opposition's worst defender.

The only real answer to this is to make sure your worst defender is still pretty good. And that generally means you can't afford to play a player who isn't 6'-5" or taller. So, unless you have a tall PG like Luka, Harden or Cade, you're better off just scrapping the point guard position altogether and playing with switchable defenders who handle point guard by committee.

Basically, point guards either need to be tall (Luka, Harden, Cade, Giddey), or stout enough to defend bigger guys (Jrue, VanVleet), or so incredibly good on offense that you can live with the defensive downside (Curry, Brunson, Haliburton, Maxey, Morant). If you don't meet one of those criteria, you are better of just playing a bigger guy who can defend. We are no longer in an era where you can play a small point guard who is a pure setup man. The era of guys like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Tyus Jones and Monte Morris is over.

[Biff]

A lot of PG's are defensive liabilities, they're too small. Unless you're an excellent floor general that significantly improves the offense, if you're bad at D, you're probably gonna be sat for a guy that can defend but isn't quite as good of a PG.

[jasonxxx102]

Having an arbitrary height requirement to qualify as a traditional PG is so stupid

[Marvin Martian]

Teams like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and even the Lakers are opting out of playing point guards - is there a reason for this?

Cooper Flagg, Amen Thompson, Devin Booker, and even Luka Doncic aren't PGs. Why are they playing that position then?

What position do you think Luka has been his whole career? Since when was he not a primary playmaker/shot creator, isn't that the role that the "point guard" exhibits. Also what is Gabe Vincent doing on the court? He's guarding the opposing PG's, so he's playing the defensive role of the PG while Luka is playing the offense one.

With this logic, Clippers aren't playing a PG since Harden is starting.


If you have a guy who can play that offensive role, what exactly are you worried about in putting a smaller guy who can do those things too?

The other teams are experimenting, we'll see if it works and how long they go with it.

Because there aren't any real point guards anymore aside from CP3 and Hali. The top PGs in the league are really just score first combo guards with mediocre playmaking.

What's a "real" PG? That would be the question. Even if we go back to what people try to call a real PG, we find variety in those players too.

Young, Harden, Garland, Van Vleet, TJ MCConnel, Tyus Jones, Lonzo (when he plays), etc, these guys are all "real PG's" too

When I refer to real PGs, I am pointing to a specific skillset and approach to the game.

I am thinking about players like Nash, CP3, Hali etc. Someone who is pass first and can make plays for others.

Modern "PGs" do not have this skillset or mentality. Their mentality is that of a SG. They are score first, and will only pass when the defense sells out to stop them. Their vision is mediocre at best and they can only make the most obvious passes.

[og15]

Teams like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and even the Lakers are opting out of playing point guards - is there a reason for this?

Cooper Flagg, Amen Thompson, Devin Booker, and even Luka Doncic aren't PGs. Why are they playing that position then?

What position do you think Luka has been his whole career? Since when was he not a primary playmaker/shot creator, isn't that the role that the "point guard" exhibits. Also what is Gabe Vincent doing on the court? He's guarding the opposing PG's, so he's playing the defensive role of the PG while Luka is playing the offense one.

With this logic, Clippers aren't playing a PG since Harden is starting.


If you have a guy who can play that offensive role, what exactly are you worried about in putting a smaller guy who can do those things too?

The other teams are experimenting, we'll see if it works and how long they go with it.

Because there aren't any real point guards anymore aside from CP3 and Hali. The top PGs in the league are really just score first combo guards with mediocre playmaking.

What's a "real" PG? That would be the question. Even if we go back to what people try to call a real PG, we find variety in those players too.

Young, Harden, Garland, Van Vleet, TJ MCConnel, Tyus Jones, Lonzo (when he plays), etc, these guys are all "real PG's" too

When I refer to real PGs, I am pointing to a specific skillset and approach to the game.

I am thinking about players like Nash, CP3, Hali etc. Someone who is pass first and can make plays for others.

Modern "PGs" do not have this skillset or mentality. Their mentality is that of a SG. They are score first, and will only pass when the defense sells out to stop them. Their vision is mediocre at best and they can only make the most obvious passes.

Harden, Luka, Young, LaMelo, etc don't have mediocre vision at best, Cade is solid too. Sure we can say they are score first (not as much Harden now in his older age), but a lot of those guys have great vision and don't just make basic passes.

Score first doesn't inherently mean mediocre vision, so we don't have to lump everything together.

McConnel also fits the pass first bill even though he's not a starting player.

There is high value in your PG being able to score very well, especially out of isolation (CP was really good at this, Hali not as good, but solid, that's what separates them from the pass first guys who simply can't score that well). I don't believe that the "real PG" is inherently superior to a score first PG who is also a great passer/playmaker.

[threethehardway]

When I refer to real PGs, I am pointing to a specific skillset and approach to the game.

I am thinking about players like Nash, CP3, Hali etc. Someone who is pass first and can make plays for others.

Modern "PGs" do not have this skillset or mentality. Their mentality is that of a SG. They are score first, and will only pass when the defense sells out to stop them. Their vision is mediocre at best and they can only make the most obvious passes.

A pass first PG is just a guard that is a limited scorer.

The "pass first" PG was a misunderstanding of what made a players like Bob Cousy (the archetypical PG) and Magic (the first modern PG) viable, it was putting pressure on defenses by forcing defenses to make sub-optimal decisions via scoring aggression.

What NBA fans and coaches learned in the 2000s, where the "pass first" PG was at an all time high, was passing is good.

Even though, through NBA history, the PG that could score were the best player on championship leading teams. Not the "pass first" guards.

Nash wasn't "pass first", CP3 isn't "pass first", Hali isn't "pass first". They are modern guards that blend passing and scoring.

A pass first PG is Ricky Rubio, Jason Kidd, and Rajon Rondo.

The "pass first PG" is an aberration, not the norm.

[tsherkin]

Having an arbitrary height requirement to qualify as a traditional PG is so stupid

No, that is just your misunderstanding of the word "traditional" limiting your access to the concept, in all honesty.

"Traditional" is a reference to how things have been for a long time. Aka, tradition. In NBA tradition, until very recently, guys playing that kind of role were customarily ("traditionally") the shortest player on the floor because they couldn't use their size closer to the basket and struggled to get to those spots.

[mattg]

Teams have so much spacing now that it's easy to mismatch hunt. Just bring the opposition's worst defender into a PnR action while everyone else spreads the floor to get the switch. Now you are pitting your best offensive creator against the opposition's worst defender.

The only real answer to this is to make sure your worst defender is still pretty good. And that generally means you can't afford to play a player who isn't 6'-5" or taller. So, unless you have a tall PG like Luka, Harden or Cade, you're better off just scrapping the point guard position altogether and playing with switchable defenders who handle point guard by committee.

Basically, point guards either need to be tall (Luka, Harden, Cade, Giddey), or stout enough to defend bigger guys (Jrue, VanVleet), or so incredibly good on offense that you can live with the defensive downside (Curry, Brunson, Haliburton, Maxey, Morant). If you don't meet one of those criteria, you are better of just playing a bigger guy who can defend. We are no longer in an era where you can play a small point guard who is a pure setup man. The era of guys like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Tyus Jones and Monte Morris is over.

Coincidentally, the same is true of big men but with defense. If the bigs you are playing don't provide a MASSIVE defensive AND rebounding advantage, it makes more sense to just play a wing who can handle and shoot instead, otherwise the big man is a net negative.

[tsherkin]

Coincidentally, the same is true of big men but with defense. If the bigs you are playing don't provide a MASSIVE defensive AND rebounding advantage, it makes more sense to just play a wing who can handle and shoot instead, otherwise the big man is a net negative.

You definitely need to play bigs with mobility over pure power, and the more range they have, the better. Some teams are able to get away with more traditional types of bigs due to the rest of the lineup, but we do see a lot of fairly small PFs (including guys who started their careers as wings), and even some centers, depending. We're also seeing some larger centers with certain skills showing up more these past years, though. It's a little bit of what you've got and what your guys can do, as always.

[Black Jack]

Curry is nearly impossible to replicate but everyone imitating Harden's playstyle basically ended traditional point guards reign.

If you can't hit 3s and are too short to guard guys its over unless you're a Ja Morant level athlete

[AussieBuck]

Teams like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and even the Lakers are opting out of playing point guards - is there a reason for this?

Cooper Flagg, Amen Thompson, Devin Booker, and even Luka Doncic aren't PGs. Why are they playing that position then?

Kidd often played Giannis at PG for his development, he's doing the same thing with Flagg.

Kidd played Giannis at PG for a dozen games at the end of his third season and otherwise had absolute spanners like Brandon Knight and Michael Carter Williams dominating the ball while Giannis watched off ball. Kidd has the best PR this side of Doc Rivers covering for his dip ****.

[elchengue20]

Basically ball handling and playmaking is more spread now, basketball it's evolving to a game where all 5 players need to do a little bit of everything, offensively and defensively.

The tiny PG who was there to bring the ball up court and organize the offense is dying just as the big slow C who was there just to set screens and grab rebounds.

[ShootersShoot]

Amen is just not a primary ball handler. Its affecting his game which ideally is more of a secondary ball handler who can help out in that regard rather than bearing full responsibility. It doesnt help that sheppard is not looking like an nba caliber guard. Unfortunately rox dont have a choice as amen is the best option currently.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I never got why Luka is considered a PG but LeBron isn’t/wasnt.

[Chokic]

For some reason Phoenix thinks Book is a PG, which he is not. It's never looked that good. To me Book has been playing worse since CP3 left.

Booker enjoys real privilege. He has complete green light to statpad to his hearts content w/o any real criticism from the media or fans. Not onlu have they not considered throwing his name on the trading block but they extended him to that ridiculous contract. The suns front office and managment are completely fine with the franchise going nowwhere with him as the centerpeice.

[threethehardway]

I never got why Luka is considered a PG but LeBron isn’t/wasnt.

Because LeBron played with PGs and SGs most his career?

If LeBron is a PG, that means Scottie Pippen is a PG.

Luka has played guard since he has been in the NBA.

We have a term for forwards that are a primary or secondary ball handler - it's called Point Forward.

I think fans get too caught up on the term PG, and think it means primary ball handler and it doesn't. It's an actual position, and you can be a PG and not do PG duties.

[kcktiny]

If Luka doesn't count as a point guard

If Doncic is a PG, then what positions were these Dallas players playing?:

2018-19 - (4758 minutes) Jalen Brunson, Devin Harris, Dennis Smith Jr., J.J. Barea, Trey Burke
2019-20 - (3232 min) Delon Wright, Jalen Brunson, J.J. Barea, Trey Burke
2020-21 - (2608 min) Jalen Brunson, Trey Burke
2021-22 - (3615 min) Jalen Brunson, Spencer Dinwiddie, Trey Burke
2022-23 - (2571 min) Spencer Dinwiddie, Kyrie Irving
2023-24 - (3118 min) Kyrie Irving, Dante Exum

Doncic is a forward/frontcourt player, has been since he came into the league, likely always will be, like Lebron and Pippen.

Jokic lead Denver in assists every year the past 8 years. Anyone calling him a PG?