Franchise Draft History Game: Round One- Larry_Russell vs GeorgeMarcus*

[Snakebites]

Here is a quick list of what you need in your writeup.

1. Specific years for each player on your team
2. Rotations and minutes for each player
3. Reasoning as to why your team will win and/or why people should vote for you.

Do not vote in this thread until both managers have submitted their writeups. Once the writeups are posted, I will add a poll, and the team with the most votes after 24 hours will advance. EACH MANAGER SHOULD ALSO VOTE FOR THEIR OWN TEAM IN THE POLL - IF YOU FAIL TO DO THIS, YOU ARE SIMPLY GIVING AWAY A VOTE. If the votes are tied, we will decide the matchup via AI vote.

You are not required to state or explain your vote, but you are free to comment in the thread if you want to.

If writeups aren't posted within 24 hours, we will vote solely based on the players they have drafted (and any rotations they have posted on their roster page).

[Larry_Russell]

PG/SG: Kyle Lowry (2015-16) 15.6
21.2ppg, 4.7rpg, 6.5apg, 2.1spg, 0.5bpg, 39% on 7-3pta
MVP-10, DPOY-13, NBA-3, AS

SG: Michael Jordan (1990-91) 22.4
31.5ppg, 6rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1bpg
MVP, FMVP, DPOY-7, NBA-1, DEF-1, AS

SF: Jimmy Butler (2022-23) 13.9
23ppg, 6rpg, 5.3apg, 1.8spg, 35% on 1.6-3pta
MVP-10, DPOY-12, NBA-2, Historic playoff run

PF: Shane Battier (2008-09) 5.9
7.3ppg, 4.8rpg, 2.3apg, 0.8spg, 0.9bpg, 38.5% on 4-3pta
DPOY-4, DEF-2

C: Alonzo Mourning (1998-99) 13.8
20ppg, 11rpg, 1.6apg, 0.7spg, 4bpg
MVP-2, DPOY, NBA-1, DEF-1

PG/SG: Kirk Hinrich (2012-13) 7
7.7ppg, 2.6rpg, 5.2apg, 1.1spg, 0.5bpg, 39% on 3-3pta

SF/PF: Jared Dudley (2009-10) 6
8.2ppg, 3.4rpg, 1.4apg, 1spg, 46% on 3.2-3pta
6MOTY Votes Received

C: Matt Bonner (2013-14) 3
3.2ppg, 2.1rpg, 0.5apg, 43% on 1.5-3pta



PG: Lowry (38) / Hinrich (10)
SG: Jordan (40) / Hinrich (8)
SF: Butler (38) / Dudley (10)
PF: Battier (38) / Dudley(10)
C: Mourning (40) / Bonner (8)


87.6/88

Defense

Lowry on Brunson (With some Jordan in here to give Lowry rest) Pick up full court at min 3/4 court. Going to constantly distrupt Jaylens timing.

Jordan on Christie (with some Lowry to let him rest) Jordan gets to play a little free roaming here to double down on Kareem when needed)

Butler on Pippen - Physical battle. Shade under any screens to allow Scottie jumpers.

Battier on Shrempf - Battier will stay GLUED to Detlef. Body on drives, contest with a hand in the face.

Kareem on mourning - defense with help at times from Jordan or Butler.



Offense
Primarily we will push in transition.

We will target both Brunson and Shrempf. - This is one that we can really exploit. Pippen will have to defend Mike (or Christie) and with our elite wing ball handling/playmaking we can run wing to wing screens to target the weak points...mike on Brunson and Jimmy on Detlef.

Christie does not have the size to defend either of Mike or Butler, imo, as both can just physically overpower him.

Lowry and Mourning pick and roll action to force Kareem into Drop coverage letting Lowry bomb from deep, or he comes up and we get a favorable switch on the wing.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Starting Lineup
80 Kareem Abdul Jabbar ~ 16.9 FGA ~ MVP, DEF1, NBA Champion
95 Detlef Schrempf ~ 12.2 FGA ~ NBA3
96 Scottie Pippen ~ 15.8 ~ NBA1, DEF1, NBA Champion MVP-5, DPOY-2
03 Doug Christie ~ 7.0 FGA ~ DEF1, DPOY-5
25 Jalen Brunson ~ 18.5 FGA ~ NBA2, CPOY, MVP-10

Bench
13 Nick Collison ~ 3.7 FGA
97 Sam Perkins ~ 8.2 FGA ~ 6MOY-5
94 Nate McMillan ~ 5.4 FGA ~ DEF2, DPOY-7, 6MOY-2

87.7/88 FGA

Rotation
Kareem (38) / Collison (10)
Schrempf (20) / Perkins (28)
Pippen (33) / Schrempf (15)
Christie (35) / McMillan (8) / Pippen (5)
Brunson (38) / McMillan (10)

Write-up
Starting Defensive Assignments:
Kareem --> Mourning
Schrempf --> Battier
Pippen --> Jordan
Christie --> Butler
Brunson --> Lowry

We have 2 1st-Team All-Defensive wings (Pip & Christie) to throw at MJ and Butler, so our defensive counters align nicely with LR's strengths. I dispute the point about Christie being too small as he was 6-6 200 lbs (same as MJ). As far as targeting Brunson/Schrempf, I don't think Schrempf belongs in that category as he was an effective defensive player and by no means a liability in that sense.

While Zo is a great defensive C, his greatest attribute was his strength and ability to push opposing bigs out of the post. With Kareem, it's an entirely different animal. We will highlight the efficacy of his mid range sky hook early and often to capitalize on the glaring height disparity. Brunson offers an elite secondary offensive option and level-headed floor general along with highly versatile/efficient supporting players in Pip/Schrempf/Christie.

We also have an advantage off the bench with Perkins/McMillan being very impactful role players to plug in alongside our higher usage stars.

GL LR and nice building!

[Dr Positivity]

I think Christie should be 2003

[Snakebites]

Voting is now open via poll, and will be for exactly 24 hours. You are more than welcome to post in this thread explaining why you voted the way you did, but it is not required and only poll votes will be counted.

Larry and George, please vote for yourselves. Everyone else please vote within the time frame.

[Larry_Russell]

Htf am I getting smoked?

[durantbird]

Htf am I getting smoked?

I can only speak for myself. But I don't like the MJ Butler fit. This is why I didn't pick the Bulls even though on paper you get a top 2 all time player, and arguably the best category 3 guy out there. Also most of the scoring is based on these two, with not enough spacing around them. The defense is great though. In your place I'd definitely draft Wolves and get rid of the clunky MJ Butler fit - something like Hinrich Allen MJ Towns Mourning would have a better offensive flow IMO.

On the other hand, I think Brunson Kareem is much more natural with better spacing overall, and Pippen slots nicely as third option.

[Jon_3232]

Htf am I getting smoked?

I was pretty surprised myself but I’ve always found there’s a lot of overthinking into “fit” and other factors with voting in these things.

[Snakebites]

Htf am I getting smoked?

I can only speak for myself. But I don't like the MJ Butler fit. This is why I didn't pick the Bulls even though on paper you get a top 2 all time player, and arguably the best category 3 guy out there. Also most of the scoring is based on these two, with not enough spacing around them. The defense is great though. In your place I'd definitely draft Wolves and get rid of the clunky MJ Butler fit - something like Hinrich Allen MJ Towns Mourning would have a better offensive flow IMO.

On the other hand, I think Brunson Kareem is much more natural with better spacing overall, and Pippen slots nicely as third option.

Same- I passed on the Bulls too.

[Fadeaway_J]

Htf am I getting smoked?

I was pretty surprised myself but I’ve always found there’s a lot of overthinking into “fit” and other factors with voting in these things.

That's news to me I must admit.

I find these comments surprising though. Even if you ignore fit entirely, GM's team is absolutely loaded.

[flaco]

The MJ-Butler fit was the deciding factor for me as well. Other than that, I think Larry has a great team!

Since Butler became a star, he has always been the #1 option/creator. Only exception might have been his brief spell with Embiid at Philly, but they had distinct roles within the flow of the offense. Even at Philly, Butler averaged 14.6 FGA in the playoffs compared to 14.5 FGA for Embiid.

Not sure about the MJ-Ray Allen fit tbh. The offense would have been firing on all cylinders, but neither of them has prototypical size to handle big swings on D. MJ would have likely done a good job regardless. The team as a whole (including 6'0'' Lowry) may have been vulnerable in switches. Given the rules of the game, I don't think there was a clear path to build a championship team around MJ in this draft.

[Dr Positivity]

I thought starting lineups were pretty close though I preferred GM's bench and Pippen should be a great defender for MJ.

[Larry_Russell]

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

[Snakebites]

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

Two things:

1) Do you view Butler and Pippen as fundamentally similar players?
2) Do you view Jordan/Pippen as perfect fits together? I attribute their success to the fact that Jordan is a top 2 player of all time and Pippen was a top 10 player in the league- sometimes even more. They had one of the greatest coaches of all time and solid depth behind them. In the 90s there were no superteams for them to contend with. It wasn't because there was anything super special about their fit together. They weren't a BAD fit per se, but not remarkable.

[flaco]

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

MJ is very ball dominant, meaning he thrives when surrounded by off-ball shooters. That's definitely not Jimmy's game.

2023 Jimmy averaged 4.39 seconds per touch and 3.24 dribbles per touch. While he recorded a respectable 35% from 3, he averaged a 3PAr of 11.6%, meaning roughly 1/10 of his FGAs were 3s. Taking a closer look at his 3-point numbers, he was averaging

• 0/0 very tightly contested 3s (closest defender at 0-2 feet)
• 0/0.2 tightly contested 3s (2-4 feet)
• 0.2/0.6 open 3s (4-6 feet) at 37.8%, but only 4.2 FREQ%
• 0.3/0.8 wide open 3s (6-8 feet) at 38.9%, but only 6.1 FREQ%

The open/wide open figures may sound impressive, but they are actually fairly average. The league average for wide-open 3s is around 38%.

Jimmy was hitting 0.3/0.9 catch-and-shoot 3s at 31.6%. Was also hitting 0.1/0.5 pull-up 3s at 28.1%. Long story short, he needs loads of space and time in order to shoot the 3. That's the shooting profile of a 3+D role player, not of a secondary creator I'd be expecting to complement MJ's game.

All in all, I think it's challenging to build around Jimmy. History has shown he's not good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team. Reached the Finals twice, but lost both of them. His style of play makes him unsuitable for a supporting role. I'd argue he excels at transforming a mediocre team into a playoff team. Not sure how valuable that is in our fantasy games. Let's say he's a rich man's DeRozan with vastly superior defense. Personally, I only draft him if my best player is a) a dominant big man or b) Steph who's basically a SG in a PG's body and allows Jimmy to be the primary creator. Don't think Jimmy can maximize his effectiveness alongside other ball-dominant players. His biggest asset in our games is his low FGA cost. That doesn't mean he's a low usage player though. In fact, I'd argue his FGA numbers are misleading cause Jimmy is averaging very high FTr numbers. Lucky for him, free throws don't count towards FGA cost.

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

2) Do you view Jordan/Pippen as perfect fits together? I attribute their success to the fact that Jordan is a top 2 player of all time and Pippen was a top 10 player in the league- sometimes even more. They had one of the greatest coaches of all time and solid depth behind them. In the 90s there were no superteams for them to contend with. It wasn't because there was anything super special about their fit together. They weren't a BAD fit per se, but not remarkable.

Didn't wanna go down this rabbit hole, but fully agree MJ-Pippen would have been considered a questionable fit in today's game. Plenty of other examples as well: Timmy-Robinson, LeBron-Wade, McHale-Parish, Hakeem-Drexler (both interior-oriented scorers), Dr J-Moses, Luka-LeBron, Luka-Kyrie, Luka-Brunson, Penny-Shaq, Wade-Shaq, even Kobe-Shaq to some extent.

[Snakebites]

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

MJ is very ball dominant, meaning he thrives when surrounded by off-ball shooters. That's definitely not Jimmy's game.

2023 Jimmy averaged 4.39 seconds per touch and 3.24 dribbles per touch. While he recorded a respectable 35% from 3, he averaged a 3PAr of 11.6%, meaning roughly 1/10 of his FGAs were 3s. Taking a closer look at his 3-point numbers, he was averaging

• 0/0 very tightly contested 3s (closest defender at 0-2 feet)
• 0/0.2 tightly contested 3s (2-4 feet)
• 0.2/0.6 open 3s (4-6 feet) at 37.8%, but only 4.2 FREQ%
• 0.3/0.8 wide open 3s (6-8 feet) at 38.9%, but only 6.1 FREQ%

The open/wide open figures may sound impressive, but they are actually fairly average. The league average for wide-open 3s is around 38%.

Jimmy was hitting 0.3/0.9 catch-and-shoot 3s at 31.6%. Was also hitting 0.1/0.5 pull-up 3s at 28.1%. Long story short, he needs loads of space and time in order to shoot the 3. That's the shooting profile of a 3+D role player, not of a secondary creator I'd be expecting to complement MJ's game.

All in all, I think it's challenging to build around Jimmy. History has shown he's not good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team. Reached the Finals twice, but lost both of them. His style of play makes him unsuitable for a supporting role. I'd argue he excels at transforming a mediocre team into a playoff team. Not sure how valuable that is in our fantasy games. Let's say he's a rich man's DeRozan with vastly superior defense. Personally, I only draft him if my best player is a) a dominant big man or b) Steph who's basically a SG in a PG's body and allows Jimmy to be the primary creator. Don't think Jimmy can maximize his effectiveness alongside other ball-dominant players. His biggest asset in our games is his low FGA cost. That doesn't mean he's a low usage player though. In fact, I'd argue his FGA numbers are misleading cause Jimmy is averaging very high FTr numbers. Lucky for him, free throws don't count towards FGA cost.

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

2) Do you view Jordan/Pippen as perfect fits together? I attribute their success to the fact that Jordan is a top 2 player of all time and Pippen was a top 10 player in the league- sometimes even more. They had one of the greatest coaches of all time and solid depth behind them. In the 90s there were no superteams for them to contend with. It wasn't because there was anything super special about their fit together. They weren't a BAD fit per se, but not remarkable.

Didn't wanna go down this rabbit hole, but fully agree MJ-Pippen would have been considered a questionable fit in today's game. Plenty of other examples as well: Timmy-Robinson, LeBron-Wade, McHale-Parish, Hakeem-Drexler (both interior-oriented scorers), Dr J-Moses, Luka-LeBron, Luka-Kyrie, Luka-Brunson, Penny-Shaq, Wade-Shaq, even Kobe-Shaq to some extent.

In the real NBA there's still room (to a certain extent) for talent to trump fit since it's possible to create enough separation talent-wise through being in an attractive market, shrewd drafting, clever cap maneuvering, or some combination of these. If Lebron was closer to his prime I think Luka/Lebron would win titles together. Lebron/Wade weren't an optimal fit even in 2013 (and this was noted by commentators at the time I think) but nobody else could field talent that competed with them for a couple of years there. KD's iso-game wasn't really an optimal fit in a Steve Kerr offense, but those teams were just able to completely outgun everyone, and Durant made them more unbeatable in the playoffs even if the regular season win total didn't reflect improvement.

In these games super-team level talent is a given and everyone gets approximately equivalent draft positions and opportunity, so fit should matter more, not less. Fit should be what separates teams in these.

I realize to a certain extent I'm going off topic here and getting on a soap box, but it felt organic to this discussion.

[flaco]

I dont get it. Jimmy would be pippen with jordan.

MJ is very ball dominant, meaning he thrives when surrounded by off-ball shooters. That's definitely not Jimmy's game.

2023 Jimmy averaged 4.39 seconds per touch and 3.24 dribbles per touch. While he recorded a respectable 35% from 3, he averaged a 3PAr of 11.6%, meaning roughly 1/10 of his FGAs were 3s. Taking a closer look at his 3-point numbers, he was averaging

• 0/0 very tightly contested 3s (closest defender at 0-2 feet)
• 0/0.2 tightly contested 3s (2-4 feet)
• 0.2/0.6 open 3s (4-6 feet) at 37.8%, but only 4.2 FREQ%
• 0.3/0.8 wide open 3s (6-8 feet) at 38.9%, but only 6.1 FREQ%

The open/wide open figures may sound impressive, but they are actually fairly average. The league average for wide-open 3s is around 38%.

Jimmy was hitting 0.3/0.9 catch-and-shoot 3s at 31.6%. Was also hitting 0.1/0.5 pull-up 3s at 28.1%. Long story short, he needs loads of space and time in order to shoot the 3. That's the shooting profile of a 3+D role player, not of a secondary creator I'd be expecting to complement MJ's game.

All in all, I think it's challenging to build around Jimmy. History has shown he's not good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team. Reached the Finals twice, but lost both of them. His style of play makes him unsuitable for a supporting role. I'd argue he excels at transforming a mediocre team into a playoff team. Not sure how valuable that is in our fantasy games. Let's say he's a rich man's DeRozan with vastly superior defense. Personally, I only draft him if my best player is a) a dominant big man or b) Steph who's basically a SG in a PG's body and allows Jimmy to be the primary creator. Don't think Jimmy can maximize his effectiveness alongside other ball-dominant players. His biggest asset in our games is his low FGA cost. That doesn't mean he's a low usage player though. In fact, I'd argue his FGA numbers are misleading cause Jimmy is averaging very high FTr numbers. Lucky for him, free throws don't count towards FGA cost.

2) Do you view Jordan/Pippen as perfect fits together? I attribute their success to the fact that Jordan is a top 2 player of all time and Pippen was a top 10 player in the league- sometimes even more. They had one of the greatest coaches of all time and solid depth behind them. In the 90s there were no superteams for them to contend with. It wasn't because there was anything super special about their fit together. They weren't a BAD fit per se, but not remarkable.

Didn't wanna go down this rabbit hole, but fully agree MJ-Pippen would have been considered a questionable fit in today's game. Plenty of other examples as well: Timmy-Robinson, LeBron-Wade, McHale-Parish, Hakeem-Drexler (both interior-oriented scorers), Dr J-Moses, Luka-LeBron, Luka-Kyrie, Luka-Brunson, Penny-Shaq, Wade-Shaq, even Kobe-Shaq to some extent.

In the real NBA there's still room (to a certain extent) for talent to trump fit since it's possible to create enough separation talent-wise through being in an attractive market, shrewd drafting, clever cap maneuvering, or some combination of these. If Lebron was closer to his prime I think Luka/Lebron would win titles together. Lebron/Wade weren't an optimal fit even in 2013 (and this was noted by commentators at the time I think) but nobody else could field talent that competed with them for a couple of years there. KD's iso-game wasn't really an optimal fit in a Steve Kerr offense, but those teams were just able to completely outgun everyone, and Durant made them more unbeatable in the playoffs even if the regular season win total didn't reflect improvement.

In these games super-team level talent is a given and everyone gets approximately equivalent draft positions and opportunity, so fit should matter more, not less. Fit should be what separates teams in these.

I realize to a certain extent I'm going off topic here and getting on a soap box, but it felt organic to this discussion.

Agreed in everything apart from the KD part. I think he was practically a perfect fit on the Warriors. Kerr was heavily relying in off-ball movement because it fitted the profile of Steph and Klay as shooters and Dray as a facilitator. KD made their offense even more versatile. Only players throughout basketball history I'd take over KD at SF for that team would be Bird and maybe peak Kawhi for superior 2-way play. Zaza/McGee were a bad fit with Dray in the frontcourt, but meh whatever. That team was the best team in NBA history in my book. Would have won 3 out of 3 rings if it weren't for the injuries. Both KD and Klay went down with long-term injuries in the 2019 Finals. Assuming health, I'd expect them to beat the MJ Bulls or any other all-time great team.

[Snakebites]

GM advances