Pablo Torre: Kawhi/Clippers/Ballmer/Aspiration Thread (part 2)

[wco81]

The gambling story will dominate headlines and discussions for awhile.

So will some good entertaining games. There will be players putting together big scoring runs so MVP discussions will come into the spotlight.

Silver probably will have very little interest in reviving the conversation about this case. Maybe they will drop the results of their investigation with minimal fanfare, like late Friday night, and hope nobody notices.

Once they ban Rozier, Chauncey and Jones, some people may turn back to this case, ask what is happening with the investigation. Silver will try to delay it beyond the All Star game but if Clippers are in the playoffs hunt, they can’t keep burying it.

[Godymas]

want to make this very clear btw

Kawhi Leonard broke 0 laws

breaching a contractual agreement with the NBA is not against the law

really the NBA is the only organization that can decide if they care, but now that the regular season is happening, the talking heads have more important things to talk about.

I'm sorry Mr. Torres but your attempt to be a white knight for some attention might as well have failed as men with more power than you have decided they do not care.

I hope that the message above was satisfying to post. Somehow I doubt that this reached your intended audience?

If the NBA decides that it doesn't care then I guess that's fine. But if that's the route they take then there is zero need for players or teams to obey the salary cap or even pay luxury taxes. Just sign the dotted line on an nba contract for any amount that you want... heck... it could be even the league minimum as long as it fits under the cap. Then just have all of the rest of the actual compensation be decided through back channels.

There's no reason why any team should ever need to pay a luxury tax again. There's no reason that any player can't play for any team they want as contract dollar amounts no longer matter. Roster size restrictions are all that matter at that point. Until maybe some loophole is found there as well? As long as Ballmer is the one doing it first right?

That's the decision that is being made here. And if they ignore it then I expect that to be what eventually occurs.

This was never about a legal issue. Nobody cares about your comments about that.

players have been taking below market deals for years in the pursuit of winning with a very good understanding that they will recoup via sponsorship money. I assure you that someone like even a Dirk Nowitzki likely received a ton of assistance from the Maverick's organization in securing one of his many sponsorship deals in exchange for his contracts. Nothing on paper, of course, but no one knows what conversations were had.

[Texas Chuck]

Dirk actually famously didn't do many endorsements while playing.

Trying to smear dirk or Duncan because kawhi and baller did this is lame.

Have evidence or don't make baseless assertions

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

want to make this very clear btw

Kawhi Leonard broke 0 laws

breaching a contractual agreement with the NBA is not against the law

really the NBA is the only organization that can decide if they care, but now that the regular season is happening, the talking heads have more important things to talk about.

I'm sorry Mr. Torres but your attempt to be a white knight for some attention might as well have failed as men with more power than you have decided they do not care.

Leonard conspired to take tens of millions of dollars from a company for no value. A company that had investors and creditors. That company ended up filling bankruptcy. He may not get charged. He may not even get sued if he returns the money he received to the estate. He absolutely broke laws though.

[levon]

I think the gambling stuff makes it more likely Silver comes down harder on this. Now it's a multifront war against the integrity of the game. You can't go after the black former players and not go after the billionaire owner.

[LakersLegacy]

Kawhi and Billups conversations about poker

147 Lexington Ave. New YORK
80 Washington Place New YORK

Over $7,150,000 stolen
$1,800,000 the highest person scammed
victims assaulted and threatened after being conned

[TheAlchemist]

I think the gambling stuff makes it more likely Silver comes down harder on this. Now it's a multifront war against the integrity of the game. You can't go after the black former players and not go after the billionaire owner.

I put money on this Silver reclines back in his seat and doesn’t give af.

Not enough pressure. Not enough f’s to give.

He can clearly say, “we looked into this evidence and it wasn’t compelling enough to certify the Clippers did anything negligent. We will be monitoring the franchise for the next couple years and they have to surrender some assets due to not being clear with the league from the get go.”

Then they make Clips surrender 2 second round picks.


This gambling issue is a bigger concern for heat.

[Old_Blue]

I think the gambling stuff makes it more likely Silver comes down harder on this. Now it's a multifront war against the integrity of the game. You can't go after the black former players and not go after the billionaire owner.

I put money on this Silver reclines back in his seat and doesn’t give af.

Not enough pressure. Not enough f’s to give.

He can clearly say, “we looked into this evidence and it wasn’t compelling enough to certify the Clippers did anything negligent. We will be monitoring the franchise for the next couple years and they have to surrender some assets due to not being clear with the league from the get go.”

Steve Ballmer could give Adam Silver $157 million (just a straight up bribe to make this all go away) and it would only represent one tenth of one percent of Ballmer's net worth. Meanwhile, some of us had macaroni and cheese for dinner tonight. Just saying.

[Godymas]

want to make this very clear btw

Kawhi Leonard broke 0 laws

breaching a contractual agreement with the NBA is not against the law

really the NBA is the only organization that can decide if they care, but now that the regular season is happening, the talking heads have more important things to talk about.

I'm sorry Mr. Torres but your attempt to be a white knight for some attention might as well have failed as men with more power than you have decided they do not care.

Leonard conspired to take tens of millions of dollars from a company for no value. A company that had investors and creditors. That company ended up filling bankruptcy. He may not get charged. He may not even get sued if he returns the money he received to the estate. He absolutely broke laws though.

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

[jbk1234]

want to make this very clear btw

Kawhi Leonard broke 0 laws

breaching a contractual agreement with the NBA is not against the law

really the NBA is the only organization that can decide if they care, but now that the regular season is happening, the talking heads have more important things to talk about.

I'm sorry Mr. Torres but your attempt to be a white knight for some attention might as well have failed as men with more power than you have decided they do not care.

Leonard conspired to take tens of millions of dollars from a company for no value. A company that had investors and creditors. That company ended up filling bankruptcy. He may not get charged. He may not even get sued if he returns the money he received to the estate. He absolutely broke laws though.

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Leonard conspired to take tens of millions of dollars from a company for no value. A company that had investors and creditors. That company ended up filling bankruptcy. He may not get charged. He may not even get sued if he returns the money he received to the estate. He absolutely broke laws though.

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

Didn't the CEO claim there were plans to have Kawhi sponsor/advertise? Perhaps the company was in such disarray that they never got around to it

[Da Doctor]

Corruption is accepted in modern America. Nothing will happen here, sadly.

[jbk1234]

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

Didn't the CEO claim there were plans to have Kawhi sponsor/advertise? Perhaps the company was in such disarray that they never got around to it

You mean the CEO who defrauded investors and bankrupted the company did not yet admit to further defrauding investors by accepting what was a fraudulent investment from Ballmer with the intent of transfering the funds to Leonard for a no-work contract?

I want to play poker with some of you guys.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

Didn't the CEO claim there were plans to have Kawhi sponsor/advertise? Perhaps the company was in such disarray that they never got around to it

You mean the CEO who defrauded investors and bankrupted the company did not yet admit to further defrauding investors by accepting what was a fraudulent investment from Ballmer with the intent of transfering the funds to Leonard for a no-work contract?

I want to play poker with some of you guys.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it isn't completely outside the realm of plausibility considering how much disarray there was in the company

[Godymas]

Leonard conspired to take tens of millions of dollars from a company for no value. A company that had investors and creditors. That company ended up filling bankruptcy. He may not get charged. He may not even get sued if he returns the money he received to the estate. He absolutely broke laws though.

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Sponsorship has nothing to do with commercials unless contractually obligated. Kawhi Leonard has no relation to the investors.

There is nothing fraudulent about transferring money in exchange for sponsorship.

It’s like saying the investors should go after the raw material suppliers that supplied steel to a bankrupt company, there is nothing to go after for the supplier the entire liability is on the company. Making a bad investment is legal. Fraud is not, but unless some kind of conspiracy exists to show that Kawhi coerced the CEO to defraud investors to sponsor him (which is absolutely insane and has 0 proof) you’re grasping at nothing.

Investors cannot go after third parties, only the people they directly did business with.

[jbk1234]

Didn't the CEO claim there were plans to have Kawhi sponsor/advertise? Perhaps the company was in such disarray that they never got around to it

You mean the CEO who defrauded investors and bankrupted the company did not yet admit to further defrauding investors by accepting what was a fraudulent investment from Ballmer with the intent of transfering the funds to Leonard for a no-work contract?

I want to play poker with some of you guys.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it isn't completely outside the realm of plausibility considering how much disarray there was in the company

It's extraordinarily implausible. The board didn't want to vote to approve the contract because it didn't require Leonard to actually do anything to get the money. The only time stuff like that happens is if there's some other consideration being offered that, for legal reasons, people don't want to put into writing.

[jbk1234]

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Sponsorship has nothing to do with commercials unless contractually obligated. Kawhi Leonard has no relation to the investors.

There is nothing fraudulent about transferring money in exchange for sponsorship.

It’s like saying the investors should go after the raw material suppliers that supplied steel to a bankrupt company, there is nothing to go after for the supplier the entire liability is on the company. Making a bad investment is legal. Fraud is not, but unless some kind of conspiracy exists to show that Kawhi coerced the CEO to defraud investors to sponsor him (which is absolutely insane and has 0 proof) you’re grasping at nothing.

Investors cannot go after third parties, only the people they directly did business with.

Leonard did nothing for tens of millions of dollars. He undertook no action to actually promote the company. To use your analogy, it's as if after a steel company went bankrupt, the creditors and investors discovered a coal company had been paid tens of millions of dollars in the two years leading up to the bankruptcy, never supplied a single piece of coal, and kept getting paid anyway.

I promise you that the US bankruptcy code treats the payments to Leonard as fraudulent transfers. You can't just say the word "sponsorship" any more than you can use the word "consulting" and avoid legal liability. You either provide a service that conveyed value, or not. You're employing some Always Sunny in Philadelphia reasoning here.

[Larry Ellison]

I think the gambling stuff makes it more likely Silver comes down harder on this. Now it's a multifront war against the integrity of the game. You can't go after the black former players and not go after the billionaire owner.

Agree 100%.

[Larry Ellison]

Conspired? He got a sponsorship. A company can’t sue for the money back if they make a bad choice in how they spent it. You can’t buy a commercial, go bankrupt, and then sue the advertising agency.

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Sponsorship has nothing to do with commercials unless contractually obligated. Kawhi Leonard has no relation to the investors.

There is nothing fraudulent about transferring money in exchange for sponsorship.

It’s like saying the investors should go after the raw material suppliers that supplied steel to a bankrupt company, there is nothing to go after for the supplier the entire liability is on the company. Making a bad investment is legal. Fraud is not, but unless some kind of conspiracy exists to show that Kawhi coerced the CEO to defraud investors to sponsor him (which is absolutely insane and has 0 proof) you’re grasping at nothing.

Investors cannot go after third parties, only the people they directly did business with.

Kawhi did not break the law. The CEO of Aspiration did. He has already pled guilty to criminal fraud. The deal with Kawhi was not really the centerpiece of the fraud but it certainly displays his lack of judgment. The contract between Kawhi and Aspiration is probably enforceable. I suppose you could say it is void for lack of consideration since Kawhi wasn't required to do anything. However, probably there was some minor benefit that accrued to Aspiration, so this is a long shot. An adversary proceeding would be appropriate only if Kawhi defrauded Aspiration. How did he do that, exactly? He made a ridiculous ask with respect to the terms of the endorsement contract, but Aspiration agreed to it. Fraud requires deceit. Did Kawhi misrepresent any facts? Did he conceal facts? No. It was all out in the open. There is no shame in Uncle Dennis game.

[Larry Ellison]

Except there was no commercial and Leonard never had any intention of making a commercial. That's what makes the transfer of tens of millions of dollars in corporate assets to Leonard, fraudulent.

If you're an investor who actually did provide value to the company, your equity is gone and you have a claim. If you're a creditor who actually did provide goods or services to company and got stiffed, you have a claim. All those fraudulent transfer claims belong to the bankruptcy estate now and can be brought by the trustee.

If I'm the trustee I'm bringing an adversary proceeding against Leonard, Ballmer, and the company board members who signed off the transaction and waiting for Ballmer to write a very big check to make it all go away.

You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. Sponsorship has nothing to do with commercials unless contractually obligated. Kawhi Leonard has no relation to the investors.

There is nothing fraudulent about transferring money in exchange for sponsorship.

It’s like saying the investors should go after the raw material suppliers that supplied steel to a bankrupt company, there is nothing to go after for the supplier the entire liability is on the company. Making a bad investment is legal. Fraud is not, but unless some kind of conspiracy exists to show that Kawhi coerced the CEO to defraud investors to sponsor him (which is absolutely insane and has 0 proof) you’re grasping at nothing.

Investors cannot go after third parties, only the people they directly did business with.

Leonard did nothing for tens of millions of dollars. He undertook no action to actually promote the company. To use your analogy, it's as if after a steel company went bankrupt, the creditors and investors discovered a coal company had been paid tens of millions of dollars in the two years leading up to the bankruptcy, never supplied a single piece of coal, and kept getting paid anyway.

I promise you that the US bankruptcy code treats the payments to Leonard as fraudulent transfers. You can't just say the word "sponsorship" any more than you can use the word "consulting" and avoid legal liability. You either provide a service that conveyed value, or not. You're employing some Always Sunny in Philadelphia reasoning here.

The term "fraudulent transfer" is usually understood to mean moving assets to shield them from creditors. At least, that is how it is used in the legal world and under the Uniform Fraudulent Transfers Act. UFTA claims are state law but the Bankruptcy Code follows the same principles. Fraudulent transfers are intended to allow the debtor to keep the funds by disguising ownership in another individual or entity. That is not what happened with Aspiration and Kawhi. Kawhi expected to keep the money. But as I said in my post above, to prove fraud you have to show actionable deceit. I certainly agree the trustee could pursue an adversary proceeding if the evidence proved fraud. But what was the deceit? In California, there are 4 kinds of fraud: (1) intentional misrepresentation, (2) negligent misrepresentation, (3) concealment, and (4) false promise. Which of these did Kawhi do? The Aspiration CEO breached his fiduciary duties and defrauded the company's investors. I just don't see the remedy against Kawhi.

I am no fan of Kawhi. But Aspiration filed BK on March 30, 2025. The trustee has a duty to pursue all claims that could recover money for the estate. No adversary proceeding has been filed. I think that speaks volumes.