It was a nice run, Jokic

[prime1time]

Wemby had 29 on 13/23. If this proves your point it just confirms that you're wrong lol. On a bad shooting night he puts up 29. Pelicans not having a big has no bearing on Wemby. They wouldn't stop him regardless lol. If that's Wemby on a bad night what justification is there fore taking Jokic over him? Jokic's best strength is his passing. But focusing on assists ignores the conversation about gravity. Wemby has the greatest gravity of any player in the league. He's a must double team on the block. When factoring a players gravity I'm taking Wemby over Jokic offensively. And we're comparing prime Jokic - i.e. the best Jokic will ever be - to Wemby entering his 3rd season. When it's all said and done, there's no real conversation between these two players.

And I mention defense to make it completely clear that it is not close between these two guys. One guy is mediocre defender at best. While the other is on track to be the defensive GOAT. People really aren't giving Wemby enough credit. He gets so many more Blocks than anyone else it's just insane. He played 46 games last year and still had the most blocks by far (28). He had the most blocks in his rookie year by 50. For his career Giannis has 1065 blocks. Wemby already has 442 blocks in his career. For Wemby's career he averages 4.3 blocks a game. The all time leader in blocks per game is Hakeem with 3.09. The gap between Wemby and the next closest modern player in blocks is so wide it is insane.

But you are delusional though. You know Jokic has averaged a triple double on almost 30 pts on 66.3 ts %, right? Wemby is not even close that level of playmaking and has not shown that scoring ability for a season, despite you fanboying over two games Just get some basic knowledge on playmaking value before you start arguing so confidently. And yeah, dropping 29 points on 23 shots vs the Pelicans without a center is not that impressive. But it shows he is a better offensive player this season and his offensive floor is higher, but let's see what he does against the better teams and defenders, and no I do not count the corpse of Anthony Davis.

The defense has no relevance to my argument about jump shooting and his offense, you're just trying to look better in your post by bringing up stuff that is totally irrelevant to what is being argued. And jump shot percentages is very much so relevant to a players offense, you posting his block numbers has no relevance to your claims of him being better than Jokic offensively after two regular season games.

I don't think you watch the games, because you are not pointing out details from the game like I am doing so your gravity claims from box score watching has no credibility.

I do think Wemby has gravity, but it's not on Stephen Curry level and a two game sample size is far too little to make such claims. Spurs shot 30 % from three last night, and it wasn't crazy open shots either, but Wemby made them get better shots from his presence, sure.

I used to be a delusional Dwyane Wade fanboy back in 2008, so I know this is not going anywhere.

Two game sample size is way more than enough. Because I project. The same way that people have been telling Wemby to attack the hoop for years but he chose instead to shoot 8+ 3's a game last year. Let me ask you a question. In his first two games last year Wemby attempted 13 3's. How large of a sample size would you need to figure out if this was a good way for a guy who's 7'6 with an 8 feet wingspan to play? Like how much do we need to see in order to say that a 7'6 8'0 wingspan with great footwork and body control attacking the rim and doing things we've never seen before might be difficult to deal with?

In your own post you contradict yourself. You say that Wemby creates better shots for his teammates, but then claim they weren't good shots because the Spurs shot 30% from 3. Then you compare Wemby to Steph - a player who has arguably the greatest gravity of any player in the history of the game. Look here, it's not that complicated. You're not stopping Wemby one-on-one on the block period. If you gave every team the option Wemby vs. your best post defender 1 on 1, and then we play normal 5 on 5 offense vs. the Spurs who wins that? Spurs are a young team and they don't play smart basketball. Wemby on the block is unstoppable. If teams don't help/double team Wemby on the block could get 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100. You're not stopping him one-on-one on the block. Period.

The gravity that a player has on the floor isn't magic. It doesn't just materialize out of thin year. It's built on basketball logic. We need to help our defender because he can't stop the player he's guarding one-on-one. This is the basis for gravity. Steph coming off multiple screens is tough for one defender to stop so we need to organize our defense so that he doesn't get open looks.

I'd argue that Wemby has even greater gravity than Steph because a lot of Steph's gravity is actually accidents. Teams making mistakes passing him off coming off of screens and now they are leaving a player wide open. Ironically you're actually right about a 2 game sample size being too small. It's too small to fully ascertain Wemby's gravity because 1) he's stopped jacking 3's and 2) teams are starting to realize just how unstoppable he is.

You say it's too early but KG actually worked with Wemby this offseason. Before one game was played during the regular season he said Wemby looked like a mix of KD and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

If you don't think teams are going to look at Harrison Barnes and Julian Champagnie and say hmmm, should we let Wemby beat us or let one of those beat us and say, "Nah, let's let Wemby beat us" you're out of your mind lol.

I'll come back to this thread after Wemby goes off for some absurd number of points. If a team insists on not helping to stop Wemby he'll destroy them. And this gets to my most basic and fundamental point concerning Wemby. Wemby unlike Jokic is a player that you have to break the fundamental rules of smart defense to stop. As good as Jokic is offensively, he's not a player that requires that. Will Jokic put up nice stat lines? Yes. But are you going to break your defense to stop him no. MJ, Shaq, Kareem. And now Wemby. There's going to be a game this season where a coach is going to say "Let's actually make Wemby beat us." And he's going to torch them.

[hardenASG13]

Wemby had 29 on 13/23. If this proves your point it just confirms that you're wrong lol. On a bad shooting night he puts up 29. Pelicans not having a big has no bearing on Wemby. They wouldn't stop him regardless lol. If that's Wemby on a bad night what justification is there fore taking Jokic over him? Jokic's best strength is his passing. But focusing on assists ignores the conversation about gravity. Wemby has the greatest gravity of any player in the league. He's a must double team on the block. When factoring a players gravity I'm taking Wemby over Jokic offensively. And we're comparing prime Jokic - i.e. the best Jokic will ever be - to Wemby entering his 3rd season. When it's all said and done, there's no real conversation between these two players.

And I mention defense to make it completely clear that it is not close between these two guys. One guy is mediocre defender at best. While the other is on track to be the defensive GOAT. People really aren't giving Wemby enough credit. He gets so many more Blocks than anyone else it's just insane. He played 46 games last year and still had the most blocks by far (28). He had the most blocks in his rookie year by 50. For his career Giannis has 1065 blocks. Wemby already has 442 blocks in his career. For Wemby's career he averages 4.3 blocks a game. The all time leader in blocks per game is Hakeem with 3.09. The gap between Wemby and the next closest modern player in blocks is so wide it is insane.

But you are delusional though. You know Jokic has averaged a triple double on almost 30 pts on 66.3 ts %, right? Wemby is not even close that level of playmaking and has not shown that scoring ability for a season, despite you fanboying over two games Just get some basic knowledge on playmaking value before you start arguing so confidently. And yeah, dropping 29 points on 23 shots vs the Pelicans without a center is not that impressive. But it shows he is a better offensive player this season and his offensive floor is higher, but let's see what he does against the better teams and defenders, and no I do not count the corpse of Anthony Davis.

The defense has no relevance to my argument about jump shooting and his offense, you're just trying to look better in your post by bringing up stuff that is totally irrelevant to what is being argued. And jump shot percentages is very much so relevant to a players offense, you posting his block numbers has no relevance to your claims of him being better than Jokic offensively after two regular season games.

I don't think you watch the games, because you are not pointing out details from the game like I am doing so your gravity claims from box score watching has no credibility.

I do think Wemby has gravity, but it's not on Stephen Curry level and a two game sample size is far too little to make such claims. Spurs shot 30 % from three last night, and it wasn't crazy open shots either, but Wemby made them get better shots from his presence, sure.

I used to be a delusional Dwyane Wade fanboy back in 2008, so I know this is not going anywhere.

Two game sample size is way more than enough. Because I project. The same way that people have been telling Wemby to attack the hoop for years but he chose instead to shoot 8+ 3's a game last year. Let me ask you a question. In his first two games last year Wemby attempted 13 3's. How large of a sample size would you need to figure out if this was a good way for a guy who's 7'6 with an 8 feet wingspan to play? Like how much do we need to see in order to say that a 7'6 8'0 wingspan with great footwork and body control attacking the rim and doing things we've never seen before might be difficult to deal with?

In your own post you contradict yourself. You say that Wemby creates better shots for his teammates, but then claim they weren't good shots because the Spurs shot 30% from 3. Then you compare Wemby to Steph - a player who has arguably the greatest gravity of any player in the history of the game. Look here, it's not that complicated. You're not stopping Wemby one-on-one on the block period. If you gave every team the option Wemby vs. your best post defender 1 on 1, and then we play normal 5 on 5 offense vs. the Spurs who wins that? Spurs are a young team and they don't play smart basketball. Wemby on the block is unstoppable. If teams don't help/double team Wemby on the block could get 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100. You're not stopping him one-on-one on the block. Period.

The gravity that a player has on the floor isn't magic. It doesn't just materialize out of thin year. It's built on basketball logic. We need to help our defender because he can't stop the player he's guarding one-on-one. This is the basis for gravity. Steph coming off multiple screens is tough for one defender to stop so we need to organize our defense so that he doesn't get open looks.

Wemby doesnt/can't post up alot on the block. That's not his game, right now. He attacks the basket on the move, and is GOAT level as a dump off guy or lob threat. When he posts up guys get leverage on him, usually leading to fade aways, which he can make. But when he's on the move, or his defender loses contact with him because they are helping, it's game over if he's anywhere near the paint. That's why Fox is going to help him even more. Fox, and Castle (maybe Harper too) demand help and get downhill alot. Wemby is the ultimate clean up guy in those scenarios, on top of everything else he can do, which does include shooting from the perimeter.

[Statlanta]

Right now it's hard for me to discern whether Victor actually improved or is just playing hard and having the benefit of being shut down early last year/having long rest. I think Jokic has this year of being the best player and then somebody new will take his place next season.

[MMyhre]

Wemby had 29 on 13/23. If this proves your point it just confirms that you're wrong lol. On a bad shooting night he puts up 29. Pelicans not having a big has no bearing on Wemby. They wouldn't stop him regardless lol. If that's Wemby on a bad night what justification is there fore taking Jokic over him? Jokic's best strength is his passing. But focusing on assists ignores the conversation about gravity. Wemby has the greatest gravity of any player in the league. He's a must double team on the block. When factoring a players gravity I'm taking Wemby over Jokic offensively. And we're comparing prime Jokic - i.e. the best Jokic will ever be - to Wemby entering his 3rd season. When it's all said and done, there's no real conversation between these two players.

And I mention defense to make it completely clear that it is not close between these two guys. One guy is mediocre defender at best. While the other is on track to be the defensive GOAT. People really aren't giving Wemby enough credit. He gets so many more Blocks than anyone else it's just insane. He played 46 games last year and still had the most blocks by far (28). He had the most blocks in his rookie year by 50. For his career Giannis has 1065 blocks. Wemby already has 442 blocks in his career. For Wemby's career he averages 4.3 blocks a game. The all time leader in blocks per game is Hakeem with 3.09. The gap between Wemby and the next closest modern player in blocks is so wide it is insane.

But you are delusional though. You know Jokic has averaged a triple double on almost 30 pts on 66.3 ts %, right? Wemby is not even close that level of playmaking and has not shown that scoring ability for a season, despite you fanboying over two games Just get some basic knowledge on playmaking value before you start arguing so confidently. And yeah, dropping 29 points on 23 shots vs the Pelicans without a center is not that impressive. But it shows he is a better offensive player this season and his offensive floor is higher, but let's see what he does against the better teams and defenders, and no I do not count the corpse of Anthony Davis.

The defense has no relevance to my argument about jump shooting and his offense, you're just trying to look better in your post by bringing up stuff that is totally irrelevant to what is being argued. And jump shot percentages is very much so relevant to a players offense, you posting his block numbers has no relevance to your claims of him being better than Jokic offensively after two regular season games.

I don't think you watch the games, because you are not pointing out details from the game like I am doing so your gravity claims from box score watching has no credibility.

I do think Wemby has gravity, but it's not on Stephen Curry level and a two game sample size is far too little to make such claims. Spurs shot 30 % from three last night, and it wasn't crazy open shots either, but Wemby made them get better shots from his presence, sure.

I used to be a delusional Dwyane Wade fanboy back in 2008, so I know this is not going anywhere.

Two game sample size is way more than enough. Because I project. The same way that people have been telling Wemby to attack the hoop for years but he chose instead to shoot 8+ 3's a game last year. Let me ask you a question. In his first two games last year Wemby attempted 13 3's. How large of a sample size would you need to figure out if this was a good way for a guy who's 7'6 with an 8 feet wingspan to play? Like how much do we need to see in order to say that a 7'6 8'0 wingspan with great footwork and body control attacking the rim and doing things we've never seen before might be difficult to deal with?

In your own post you contradict yourself. You say that Wemby creates better shots for his teammates, but then claim they weren't good shots because the Spurs shot 30% from 3. Then you compare Wemby to Steph - a player who has arguably the greatest gravity of any player in the history of the game. Look here, it's not that complicated. You're not stopping Wemby one-on-one on the block period. If you gave every team the option Wemby vs. your best post defender 1 on 1, and then we play normal 5 on 5 offense vs. the Spurs who wins that? Spurs are a young team and they don't play smart basketball. Wemby on the block is unstoppable. If teams don't help/double team Wemby on the block could get 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100. You're not stopping him one-on-one on the block. Period.

The gravity that a player has on the floor isn't magic. It doesn't just materialize out of thin year. It's built on basketball logic. We need to help our defender because he can't stop the player he's guarding one-on-one. This is the basis for gravity. Steph coming off multiple screens is tough for one defender to stop so we need to organize our defense so that he doesn't get open looks.

I never said they were bad shots, I just mentioned the stats, which show that he did not create insane looks with his gravity. I also watched the game, unlike you. You aren't giving into details or examples from the game to really make sense of any of your "projections". You are just taking a great player and saying he is going to be great. Wow, you are truly seeing further than anyone there.

Just because Wemby wants to attack the basket more does not mean that he will get there and score 30 + on 65 ts % for the whole season. The NBA has tons of fast and strong defenders to keep him out of the paint.
Yes, I compared him to Steph because you are claiming he has the best gravity in the league. It's a pretty strong claim without you citing one single example from the games, which is why I have a strong suspicion that you don't even watch the games, making this whole Wemby rant you are on even more ridiculous. Watch the games, then you can talk about projecting and actually understanding what you are looking at.

You're trying to be hailed as a genius by saying Wemby will be great, but the thing is, everyone says Wemby will be great. You are not special in thinking this, and you're just making exaggerated claims to look as if you're smart/wise, but your claims have no basis in reality and you don't give examples from the game to further prove your claims. I think you don't watch the games. Why are we talking about basketball in detail if we can not give one single example of the two games to prove our points? It's just vague gibberish about Wemby being a god on the block that no one can stop after two games of which he had one great and one good offensive game. That's it. Against two teams that are 0-2 so far in the season.

[MMyhre]

But you are delusional though. You know Jokic has averaged a triple double on almost 30 pts on 66.3 ts %, right? Wemby is not even close that level of playmaking and has not shown that scoring ability for a season, despite you fanboying over two games Just get some basic knowledge on playmaking value before you start arguing so confidently. And yeah, dropping 29 points on 23 shots vs the Pelicans without a center is not that impressive. But it shows he is a better offensive player this season and his offensive floor is higher, but let's see what he does against the better teams and defenders, and no I do not count the corpse of Anthony Davis.

The defense has no relevance to my argument about jump shooting and his offense, you're just trying to look better in your post by bringing up stuff that is totally irrelevant to what is being argued. And jump shot percentages is very much so relevant to a players offense, you posting his block numbers has no relevance to your claims of him being better than Jokic offensively after two regular season games.

I don't think you watch the games, because you are not pointing out details from the game like I am doing so your gravity claims from box score watching has no credibility.

I do think Wemby has gravity, but it's not on Stephen Curry level and a two game sample size is far too little to make such claims. Spurs shot 30 % from three last night, and it wasn't crazy open shots either, but Wemby made them get better shots from his presence, sure.

I used to be a delusional Dwyane Wade fanboy back in 2008, so I know this is not going anywhere.

Two game sample size is way more than enough. Because I project. The same way that people have been telling Wemby to attack the hoop for years but he chose instead to shoot 8+ 3's a game last year. Let me ask you a question. In his first two games last year Wemby attempted 13 3's. How large of a sample size would you need to figure out if this was a good way for a guy who's 7'6 with an 8 feet wingspan to play? Like how much do we need to see in order to say that a 7'6 8'0 wingspan with great footwork and body control attacking the rim and doing things we've never seen before might be difficult to deal with?

In your own post you contradict yourself. You say that Wemby creates better shots for his teammates, but then claim they weren't good shots because the Spurs shot 30% from 3. Then you compare Wemby to Steph - a player who has arguably the greatest gravity of any player in the history of the game. Look here, it's not that complicated. You're not stopping Wemby one-on-one on the block period. If you gave every team the option Wemby vs. your best post defender 1 on 1, and then we play normal 5 on 5 offense vs. the Spurs who wins that? Spurs are a young team and they don't play smart basketball. Wemby on the block is unstoppable. If teams don't help/double team Wemby on the block could get 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100. You're not stopping him one-on-one on the block. Period.

The gravity that a player has on the floor isn't magic. It doesn't just materialize out of thin year. It's built on basketball logic. We need to help our defender because he can't stop the player he's guarding one-on-one. This is the basis for gravity. Steph coming off multiple screens is tough for one defender to stop so we need to organize our defense so that he doesn't get open looks.

I'd argue that Wemby has even greater gravity than Steph because a lot of Steph's gravity is actually accidents. Teams making mistakes passing him off coming off of screens and now they are leaving a player wide open. Ironically you're actually right about a 2 game sample size being too small. It's too small to fully ascertain Wemby's gravity because 1) he's stopped jacking 3's and 2) teams are starting to realize just how unstoppable he is.

You say it's too early but KG actually worked with Wemby this offseason. Before one game was played during the regular season he said Wemby looked like a mix of KD and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

If you don't think teams are going to look at Harrison Barnes and Julian Champagnie and say hmmm, should we let Wemby beat us or let one of those beat us and say, "Nah, let's let Wemby beat us" you're out of your mind lol.

I'll come back to this thread after Wemby goes off for some absurd number of points. If a team insists on not helping to stop Wemby he'll destroy them. And this gets to my most basic and fundamental point concerning Wemby. Wemby unlike Jokic is a player that you have to break the fundamental rules of smart defense to stop. As good as Jokic is offensively, he's not a player that requires that. Will Jokic put up nice stat lines? Yes. But are you going to break your defense to stop him no. MJ, Shaq, Kareem. And now Wemby. There's going to be a game this season where a coach is going to say "Let's actually make Wemby beat us." And he's going to torch them.

Everyone.Knows.Wemby.Is.Great. We get it, but you are going too far, too early.

Watch on YouTube

This is the main difference right here as offensive players, this is a level Wemby might never reach as a playmaker. And let us see him score up to 29-30 pts on good efficiency this season before we compare him as a scorer to Jokic who has actually done it. Wemby has not, yet. I think he will have a pretty good offensive season, but I don't think he beats Jokic 29.6 pts on 66.3 ts % from last season as a scorer. And when he is likely not even going to be better in scoring, how are we then going to compare him to a much superior playmaker as an offensive player? That's because we don't compare him to Jokic offensively yet, because he has not yet proven to be as good. He might be, some day. I don't it's this season though.

[WestbrookGOATed]

I mean it's currently SGA's run?

Gonna be short lived.

Sent from my SM-S936U using RealGM mobile app

May I ask what brings you to that assumption? Because its definitely not looking that way.

[WestbrookGOATed]

BREAKING: Victor Wembanya has been traded to the Los Angeles Lakers for Gabe Vincent and a 2029 2nd round pick

[BelgradeNugget]

Yes. Aaron Gordon takes the ownership of the league from here

[prime1time]

Two game sample size is way more than enough. Because I project. The same way that people have been telling Wemby to attack the hoop for years but he chose instead to shoot 8+ 3's a game last year. Let me ask you a question. In his first two games last year Wemby attempted 13 3's. How large of a sample size would you need to figure out if this was a good way for a guy who's 7'6 with an 8 feet wingspan to play? Like how much do we need to see in order to say that a 7'6 8'0 wingspan with great footwork and body control attacking the rim and doing things we've never seen before might be difficult to deal with?

In your own post you contradict yourself. You say that Wemby creates better shots for his teammates, but then claim they weren't good shots because the Spurs shot 30% from 3. Then you compare Wemby to Steph - a player who has arguably the greatest gravity of any player in the history of the game. Look here, it's not that complicated. You're not stopping Wemby one-on-one on the block period. If you gave every team the option Wemby vs. your best post defender 1 on 1, and then we play normal 5 on 5 offense vs. the Spurs who wins that? Spurs are a young team and they don't play smart basketball. Wemby on the block is unstoppable. If teams don't help/double team Wemby on the block could get 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100. You're not stopping him one-on-one on the block. Period.

The gravity that a player has on the floor isn't magic. It doesn't just materialize out of thin year. It's built on basketball logic. We need to help our defender because he can't stop the player he's guarding one-on-one. This is the basis for gravity. Steph coming off multiple screens is tough for one defender to stop so we need to organize our defense so that he doesn't get open looks.

I'd argue that Wemby has even greater gravity than Steph because a lot of Steph's gravity is actually accidents. Teams making mistakes passing him off coming off of screens and now they are leaving a player wide open. Ironically you're actually right about a 2 game sample size being too small. It's too small to fully ascertain Wemby's gravity because 1) he's stopped jacking 3's and 2) teams are starting to realize just how unstoppable he is.

You say it's too early but KG actually worked with Wemby this offseason. Before one game was played during the regular season he said Wemby looked like a mix of KD and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

If you don't think teams are going to look at Harrison Barnes and Julian Champagnie and say hmmm, should we let Wemby beat us or let one of those beat us and say, "Nah, let's let Wemby beat us" you're out of your mind lol.

I'll come back to this thread after Wemby goes off for some absurd number of points. If a team insists on not helping to stop Wemby he'll destroy them. And this gets to my most basic and fundamental point concerning Wemby. Wemby unlike Jokic is a player that you have to break the fundamental rules of smart defense to stop. As good as Jokic is offensively, he's not a player that requires that. Will Jokic put up nice stat lines? Yes. But are you going to break your defense to stop him no. MJ, Shaq, Kareem. And now Wemby. There's going to be a game this season where a coach is going to say "Let's actually make Wemby beat us." And he's going to torch them.

Everyone.Knows.Wemby.Is.Great. We get it, but you are going too far, too early.

Watch on YouTube

This is the main difference right here as offensive players, this is a level Wemby might never reach as a playmaker. And let us see him score up to 29-30 pts on good efficiency this season before we compare him as a scorer to Jokic who has actually done it. Wemby has not, yet. I think he will have a pretty good offensive season, but I don't think he beats Jokic 29.6 pts on 66.3 ts % from last season as a scorer. And when he is likely not even going to be better in scoring, how are we then going to compare him to a much superior playmaker as an offensive player? That's because we don't compare him to Jokic offensively yet, because he has not yet proven to be as good. He might be, some day. I don't it's this season though.

Who was a better offensive player. Shaq or Jokic? Wilt or Jokic? Hakeem or Jokic? Kareem or Jokic? Duncan or Jokic? Jokic is the best playmaker out of that group so clearly he must be better than all of them. It's not even a question Wemby as a player. Wemby the player is irrelevant. What you're saying is that Jokic is the greatest offensive big ever simply because he can dominates the ball and generates assists aka playmaking.

I would point out that every big I listed won more than one championship. Teams were one guy dominates the ball and is responsible for generating a vast majority of the offense simply aren't as good as teams where Bigs can focus on scoring/rebounding/defending. And this is ultimately the problem with the convo.

The whole way this conversation is set up benefits Jokic because every other great center took pride in dominating on defense. Jokic takes defense off. So he can focus on generating all the offense. The end result being a system that is better built to produce nice stats than it is to win in the playoffs and win championships. So if you're argument is that Jokic's playmaking makes him a better offensive player than Wemby, you're right by default. But I'd argue that when it comes to winning I'd take my big anchoring my defense and pg initiating my offense every day of the week over what Jokic does. If we're being honest, Jokic's championship came about during a down period in the NBA.

Young Minnesota, dysfunctional Durant Suns, flawed LBJ Lakers and then the Heat lol. It should come as no surprise that Jokic hasn't gotten to the conference finals only one other time. Shaq on the other hand made the conference finals 9 times and the NBA finals 6 time. It's an honest question as to whether Jokic will even make a conference finals again.

[prime1time]

I'd argue that Wemby has even greater gravity than Steph because a lot of Steph's gravity is actually accidents. Teams making mistakes passing him off coming off of screens and now they are leaving a player wide open. Ironically you're actually right about a 2 game sample size being too small. It's too small to fully ascertain Wemby's gravity because 1) he's stopped jacking 3's and 2) teams are starting to realize just how unstoppable he is.

You say it's too early but KG actually worked with Wemby this offseason. Before one game was played during the regular season he said Wemby looked like a mix of KD and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

If you don't think teams are going to look at Harrison Barnes and Julian Champagnie and say hmmm, should we let Wemby beat us or let one of those beat us and say, "Nah, let's let Wemby beat us" you're out of your mind lol.

I'll come back to this thread after Wemby goes off for some absurd number of points. If a team insists on not helping to stop Wemby he'll destroy them. And this gets to my most basic and fundamental point concerning Wemby. Wemby unlike Jokic is a player that you have to break the fundamental rules of smart defense to stop. As good as Jokic is offensively, he's not a player that requires that. Will Jokic put up nice stat lines? Yes. But are you going to break your defense to stop him no. MJ, Shaq, Kareem. And now Wemby. There's going to be a game this season where a coach is going to say "Let's actually make Wemby beat us." And he's going to torch them.

Everyone.Knows.Wemby.Is.Great. We get it, but you are going too far, too early.

Watch on YouTube

This is the main difference right here as offensive players, this is a level Wemby might never reach as a playmaker. And let us see him score up to 29-30 pts on good efficiency this season before we compare him as a scorer to Jokic who has actually done it. Wemby has not, yet. I think he will have a pretty good offensive season, but I don't think he beats Jokic 29.6 pts on 66.3 ts % from last season as a scorer. And when he is likely not even going to be better in scoring, how are we then going to compare him to a much superior playmaker as an offensive player? That's because we don't compare him to Jokic offensively yet, because he has not yet proven to be as good. He might be, some day. I don't it's this season though.

Who was a better offensive player. Shaq or Jokic? Wilt or Jokic? Hakeem or Jokic? Kareem or Jokic? Duncan or Jokic? Jokic is the best playmaker out of that group so clearly he must be better than all of them. It's not even a question Wemby as a player. Wemby the player is irrelevant. What you're saying is that Jokic is the greatest offensive big ever simply because he can dominates the ball and generates assists aka playmaking.

I would point out that every big I listed won more than one championship. Teams were one guy dominates the ball and is responsible for generating a vast majority of the offense simply aren't as good as teams where Bigs can focus on scoring/rebounding/defending. And this is ultimately the problem with the convo.

The whole way this conversation is set up benefits Jokic because every other great center took pride in dominating on defense. Jokic takes defense off. So he can focus on generating all the offense. The end result being a system that is better built to produce nice stats than it is to win in the playoffs and win championships. So if you're argument is that Jokic's playmaking makes him a better offensive player than Wemby, you're right by default. But I'd argue that when it comes to winning I'd take my big anchoring my defense and pg initiating my offense every day of the week over what Jokic does. If we're being honest, Jokic's championship came about during a down period in the NBA.

Young Minnesota, dysfunctional Durant Suns, flawed LBJ Lakers and then the Heat lol. It should come as no surprise that Jokic hasn't gotten to the conference finals only one other time. Shaq on the other hand made the conference finals 9 times and the NBA finals 6 time. It's an honest question as to whether Jokic will even make a conference finals again.

This is the Jokic paradox. Great numbers but post season resume that doesn't come close to matching other elite bigs. Of course all ball dominant players who put up great stats have a built in excuse. It's not me, it's my teammates. But for truly great players there no excuse for not winning. The NBA isn't about putting up great stats. It's about winning. How can you be the greatest offensive player the game has ever seen and not have significant success in the post season? In the last 5 years Jokic has only been to one conference finals. Where is the sustained post-season success that we expect from Great players? If Jokic played in an era where other great players where in their primes - he would probably finish his career with no championships at all.

[SpurNani]

The whole way this conversation is set up benefits Jokic because every other great center took pride in dominating on defense. Jokic takes defense off. So he can focus on generating all the offense. The end result being a system that is better built to produce nice stats than it is to win in the playoffs and win championships. So if you're argument is that Jokic's playmaking makes him a better offensive player than Wemby, you're right by default. But I'd argue that when it comes to winning I'd take my big anchoring my defense and pg initiating my offense every day of the week over what Jokic does. If we're being honest, Jokic's championship came about during a down period in the NBA.

Young Minnesota, dysfunctional Durant Suns, flawed LBJ Lakers and then the Heat lol. It should come as no surprise that Jokic hasn't gotten to the conference finals only one other time. Shaq on the other hand made the conference finals 9 times and the NBA finals 6 time. It's an honest question as to whether Jokic will even make a conference finals again.

Only made two in his entire career which is the same as 24 year old Anthony Edwards. LOL but this is supposed to be greatest offensive big of all time

The heliocentric dribble handoff king

[Black Jack]

Let's hope for some Jokic vs Wemby playoff series.

[SpurNani]

Young Minnesota, dysfunctional Durant Suns, flawed LBJ Lakers and then the Heat lol. It should come as no surprise that Jokic hasn't gotten to the conference finals only one other time. Shaq on the other hand made the conference finals 9 times and the NBA finals 6 time. It's an honest question as to whether Jokic will even make a conference finals again.

Absolutely correct. One of the weakest championship paths in NBA history.

No team with over 46 wins. 3 play in teams including the Heat who lost the opening play in game. 3 teams with significant injuries to star players.

Its not surprise Jokic hasn't made it out of the 2nd round since in a normal year with normal teams. Jokic ball is great for the regular season. Great for stats. Great for awards. He's come up incredibly small the last two years in the postseason.

[MMyhre]

Young Minnesota, dysfunctional Durant Suns, flawed LBJ Lakers and then the Heat lol. It should come as no surprise that Jokic hasn't gotten to the conference finals only one other time. Shaq on the other hand made the conference finals 9 times and the NBA finals 6 time. It's an honest question as to whether Jokic will even make a conference finals again.

Absolutely correct. One of the weakest championship paths in NBA history.

No team with over 46 wins. 3 play in teams including the Heat who lost the opening play in game. 3 teams with significant injuries to star players.

Its not surprise Jokic hasn't made it out of the 2nd round since in a normal year with normal teams. Jokic ball is great for the regular season. Great for stats. Great for awards. He's come up incredibly small the last two years in the postseason.

Even as the biggest Jokic critic last season here, I won't call it coming up small to take OKC to 7. His problem is his refusal to build a better physique so that he can play at a higher level for longer. Too much body fat %. The Wolves series was a bigger disappointment as they aren't on OKC's tier.

[Optms]

I mean it's currently SGA's run?

Gonna be short lived.

Sent from my SM-S936U using RealGM mobile app

May I ask what brings you to that assumption? Because its definitely not looking that way.

Two way impact in ways Shai could only dream about. Its over.

[prime1time]

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I remember watching the Wizards play the Nuggets last year and being stunned by how bad Jokic's defense was. There are literally games where he just doesn't show up defensively. He just takes the game off. If you look at the stat line Jokic played an amazing game. 40/13/9 on 16-30. But he was an absolute disaster defensively. You can say it's an outlier but what is painfully obvious is that Jokic takes no pride in playing defense. No pride in anchoring a defense. No pride in getting defensive stops. He's here to dominate offensively and - in his mind - playing defensive is someone else's responsibility.

We can talk about how great his stat line is and how impressive it is that he can playmake and rebound and score and put-up triple doubles with ease. We can talk about how the salary cap restrictions and other changes make it harder for dynasties. But the lack of winning by the supposed offensive GOAT is stunning and must lead to the conclusion that this is a sub-optimal way to play basketball. How can we really discuss the offensive GOAT when the vast majority of players in the conversation are going all out on the defensive end and one guy is like, "ehh, not my concern."

Basically what I'm arguing for is that there is a minimal level of consistent post-season success that needs to be accomplished in order to be in the offensive GOAT conversation. Sustained post-season success/dominance over multiple seasons to show that you belong in the conversation.

[prime1time]

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I remember watching the Wizards play the Nuggets last year and being stunned by how bad Jokic's defense was. There are literally games where he just doesn't show up defensively. He just takes the game off. If you look at the stat line Jokic played an amazing game. 40/13/9 on 16-30. But he was an absolute disaster defensively. You can say it's an outlier but what is painfully obvious is that Jokic takes no pride in playing defense. No pride in anchoring a defense. No pride in getting defensive stops. He's here to dominate offensively and - in his mind - playing defensive is someone else's responsibility.

We can talk about how great his stat line is and how impressive it is that he can playmake and rebound and score and put-up triple doubles with ease. We can talk about how the salary cap restrictions and other changes make it harder for dynasties. But the lack of winning by the supposed offensive GOAT is stunning and must lead to the conclusion that this is a sub-optimal way to play basketball. How can we really discuss the offensive GOAT when the vast majority of players in the conversation are going all out on the defensive end and one guy is like, "ehh, not my concern."

Basically what I'm arguing for is that there is a minimal level of consistent post-season success that needs to be accomplished in order to be in the offensive GOAT conversation. Sustained post-season success/dominance over multiple seasons to show that you belong in the conversation.

The challenge for Jokic is that his offense and his defense is in tension. So the more he dominates on offense, the more likely it is that he real will try to rest on defense. So his best offensive games are likely to coincide with his worst defensive games. His highest game score last year was 52.7. He scored 61/10/10. And his team lost to the Mavs. 140-139 in double overtime.

[JustBuzzin]

I said this last year and was called a Jokic hater lol

Nah I'm just a fact teller. It was only a matter of time before Wemby was going to take over.

[JustBuzzin]

Back to Jokic

Dude WTF he has to be 20 pounds heavier than last season. He has a beer belly for goodness sakes. Hopefully he plays himself into shape because the Nuggets aren't winning anything if Jokic is going to be fat all season smh.

[BelgradeNugget]

Yes. Aaron Gordon takes the ownership of the league from here

Sorry Aaron, White Mamba took the league from you. It is Austin Reaves' world we are living in