2025-2026 Regular Season Game 5: Orlando Magic (1-3) at Detroit Pistons (2-2) - 7pm ET

[eyriq]

I can't really be pissed off at Mosley or Weltman since I like most of the recent moves and rotations. I'm going down with the ship I guess.

[Orl_Magic]

We must stop this drop coverage on pick and rolls. Watching Wendell just retreat like Vooch every time there is a switch. I thought WCJ was good at guarding in space?

[SOUL]

I can't really be pissed off at Mosley or Weltman since I like most of the recent moves and rotations. I'm going down with the ship I guess.

One thing I do admire about ya! I do feel like a lot of the forum swings wildly on opinion from game to game even when they say they'll give it a longer time.

Sure, you could say "opinions change over time" which is absolutely true, but simply overreacting in both directions anytime the wind blows isn't really even forming an opinion lol, it's just dooming to the max or coping to the max.

On one hand, they're super in a funk and just killing themselves offensively with turnovers and free throws and not playing defense. On the other hand, despite us not really playing a "great" team yet, I do feel comfortable with most of this roster being "in" most games in terms of having talent and being able to match it once we get our **** together. Still a lot to work out though.

Gotta get these wins against bad teams, but any win is a good win right now.

[eyriq]

If JI is really our second most important player and he's really regressed this badly we are screwed.

[eyriq]

I can't really be pissed off at Mosley or Weltman since I like most of the recent moves and rotations. I'm going down with the ship I guess.

One thing I do admire about ya! I do feel like a lot of the forum swings wildly on opinion from game to game even when they say they'll give it a longer time.

Sure, you could say "opinions change over time" which is absolutely true, but simply overreacting in both directions anytime the wind blows isn't really even forming an opinion lol, it's just dooming to the max or coping to the max.

On one hand, they're super in a funk and just killing themselves offensively with turnovers and free throws and not playing defense. On the other hand, despite us not really playing a "great" team yet, I do feel comfortable with most of this roster being "in" most games in terms of having talent and being able to match it once we get our **** together. Still a lot to work out though.

Gotta get these wins against bad teams, but any win is a good win right now.

Thanks! Opinions without frameworks are fickle things. Frameworks should be principled and not subject to wild updates. Unfortunately I may have to rethink everything...

Save me, Mosley!

[thelead]

If JI is really our second most important player and he's really regressed this badly we are screwed.

We are... but you keep giving Weltman passes. And what about WCJ? $20mil per for this?!? For that money, he should be filling in JI's gaps. Instead we have $35 mil wasted in a position that is critical to NBA defenses and always has been.

[KillMonger]

We must stop this drop coverage on pick and rolls. Watching Wendell just retreat like Vooch every time there is a switch. I thought WCJ was good at guarding in space?

He should be..... I mean that's what we were told is one of his strengths right?

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[MIPQ]

Shooting a free throw is the most slow paced thing you can do on a basketball court, it's no wonder we can't hit them in our new blistering speed offensive system

[MasterGMer]

I honestly do not know if JI is sleep walking this game. I also think Penda's merge has something to do with replacing JI. Personal opinion

[basketballRob]

We not only got rid of some of our best defenders, but neither Suggs nor Isaac are moving laterally very well.

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[eyriq]

If JI is really our second most important player and he's really regressed this badly we are screwed.

We are... but you keep giving Weltman passes. And what about WCJ? $20mil per for this?!? For that money, he should be filling in JI's gaps. Instead we have $35 mil wasted in a position that is critical to NBA defenses and always has been.

Let's think this through. 2023-24 happens with Franz and to a lesser extent Suggs pushing us above .500 with the support of a terrific bench. Two A listers for the young core argument. Paolo leads the team in usage and is pretty much a .500 player at -4 net points, sugar coats it with a terrific postseason. Easy to argue that a 21 year old first option is a foundational piece in this context.

WCJ is a positive amongst starters, while JI, Moe, and Goga standout off the bench. Easy to justify extending them within this context.

So you have evidence to support locking up the young core and the bench. Which is exactly what they did.

I'm on the record opposing both the JI and WCJ extensions but seeing the net points accounting I understand why they did it.

Fast forward and JI is a shell, Moe is injured, Bane is struggling and Tyus is a dud. The Bane trade is a move I support. The Tyus signing makes me uncomfortable because it threatens AB's pg reps but I get it. The draft was awesome. There's just not much for me to moan about if I haven't already been moaning.

[dsg2021]

I think it's just a matter of what is the number of games that the Coaching Staff and FO have in terms of experimenting with new pace, new lineups and new philosophies/strategies. So maybe there is like a 20-40 game limit before the Coaching Staff feels the pressure (I think FO is safe until end of '26-'27 season at earliest). Because on one hand, Jeff Turner/Broadcast team pulled up a graph in the game highlighting ORL as the 2nd youngest team in the league by points scored that was like a "Relax, breathe and trust the process" moment, but on the other hand, we all kind of thought it was still more win now this summer. The idea of experimenting is to be like .500+ during it, or at least hanging .400+ during it. Not .200.

Regardless, I would still blame the players more than Mosely. It just feels like every single game, the team defense gets worse. 136 and 135 points in two games. Even league-wide, every team seems to have forgotten to play defense to their usual standard as well.

And if this lack of team defense is not some combo of factors such as early season doldrums, conditioning catching up, philosophy/strategy shift (ex., stop gambles, slow pace), then it's needing trades/re-shuffling on the margins. Because JI is not impacting the defense enough anymore. AB, Suggs, and Franz having a down defensive year. Bane is not KCP on defense, even though a net positive. No 7 foot big outside JI. And we might need two or three of them now with players like Wemby, Holmgren out there.

There's more than enough salary between Jett and Goga to, first, get under the repeater tax clock.
And then between ORL picks, pick swaps, Jett, Goga, WCJ, and JI trade-offs with maybe a rookie-scaled reset surprise like Penda traded, there's space to end up with a really good 7 footer and probably even keep one of them like JI or WCJ.
Something in my gut tells me we are going to hardcore focus on 7 footers in the draft for like the next 2-3 seasons in a row, and steal a really good one, even in the 20's or 30's range.
I am also super keen on whenever one of Jase or Tyus wins out by shooting and creating like they're capable of. And getting Mo Wagner really involved in the bench offense as its leading scorer. Or even experimenting a bit with both Mo or JI starting at 5, even if WCJ ends with the bigger minutes always.

[pepe1991]

You're convinced by an argument that attributes our success to Joe Ingles? You are better than this.

Not Ingles himself. But the bench carried us in 23/24, that is a fact. The young core got too much credit for that season. Franz has always been the one starter rating out highly. Then we went in on a non superstar player knowing that, just because the East is weak and maybe we can hope West team is hurt in finals if we get there? I was trying to cope with Bane trade, but it just doesn't feel that great.

And I still think we can be fine this year, but just thinking bigger picture, not sure we are better off.

We had 7 players who finished with positive net points (pushing us above .500 as zero net points is .500). Let's group them by "Starter" vs. "Bench" (based on their primary role that season).

Starter vs. Bench: Net Points Credit
Positive-Rated Starters
Franz Wagner: +92
Wendell Carter Jr.: +32
Jalen Suggs: +18
STARTER TOTAL: +142

Positive-Rated Bench
Jonathan Isaac: +76
Moe Wagner: +65
Goga Bitadze: +35
Joe Ingles: +3
BENCH TOTAL: +179

I see where you're coming from, but I think that "bench carried us" narrative is the wrong way to look at it.

The team's total net points was +158, but it came from +291 Defense canceling out a -73 Offense. That elite defensive identity is set by the core.

Franz (+92): You're right, he's the proven two-way star (+46 Off / +46 Def).

Suggs (+18): This is a win. It confirms he's an All-Defense specialist (+36 Def) who is also a net positive. That's a perfect core piece.

Paolo (-4): This is the "cost" of a 21-yr-old All-Star carrying our entire offense (-34 Off). The real story is his +30 Defense rating. He bought in instead of coasting.

We won 47 games while our offense was awful and our #1 option was still developing. That 47-win season should be our FLOOR, not our ceiling.

The Bane trade just fixed our single biggest problem (that -73 offense). We're building on a proven foundation.

Actual plus minus 2023-24:
best players
Franz Wagner +204
Isaac +182
Joe Ingles +165
Cole Anthony +110
M. Wagner +93


worst players
OKeke - 77
Black - 33
Banchero +1
Fultz +13

Middle of a road: :Suggs ( +45) , Carter (+91)

Impact swing between that Version of Isaac and Joe Ingles, to one Banchero ( 181, 164 points ) is similar impact swing from same season between Steph Curry and Jerome Robinson

3 of best Magic lineups for that year, minimum 70 min , all exclude: Banchero, Carter and Suggs, all include: Isaac ( declined); Ingles (gone), Mortiz ( out for very long time, with serious injury for big guy )



What's even more problematic is to see lineups with your favorite buzzword: Wing hub. Only 1 lineup with Banchero and Franz even had below offensive rating (113,3, still would be considered top 10 worst in nba if translated to a team).
In mist of all this, most important part is how castrated offense always was without Ingles- Moe punch, and how dependent team always was on playoff-level- effort on defense to even collect 47 wins. All on backs of sub .500.

Most used lineups


are net positive, especially first one, with G. Harris but once again, offensive rating on both lineups is so damn terrible and defensive effort/level simply isn't sustainable for multiple seasons with declining key players on defense, mainly Isaac, later KCP, and guys like G. Harris.

What Weltman did was very naive and superficial way of thinking, and simply being simple minded basketball mind. He overvalued "young core" that never, aside from Franz was all that important for soul season success. You know.... one of two in a decade he even had.

Banchero continues to be one of biggest black holes NBA has, and now he makes max money. It's laughable to even elaborate how hard is to win with player who is this bad:



So much negative impact is so hard to find in nba, let alone on max deal. Even Lavine isn't this bad.

I find Scottie Barnes one of most overrated nba max contracts, but even he is way more "green" than Banchero

Spoiler:

Barnes on-off for career


At the end of a day you are only as good as your best player(s). With so much data to collect post mirage of 23-24 ( Pistons- 25-26 type season, where team played above it's head due energy, like Pistons demonstrated tonight ), all i can conclude is that it's near impossible to win on consistent bases with player who eats 30% of usage rate, 25% of cap space and needs whole offense to be defer to him, and yet his impact is this:



Bottom line, either team needs to get actual point guard and give that next star 25-30% usage rate and make Banchero what he is, sporadic focal point of offense, but limit his usage to some 12-13 shots a night, or trade Suggs/Bane /Carter /Black, whatever assets they have left to find very specific center to go along Banchero. Tbh that guy doesn't even exist in real world, but whatever. Some rim running, 3 point shooting, shotblocking role player. Good luck with that.

Current roster, with "wing hub" BS, plays copy past- same as that failed all-6'8 - Raptors team played, and even current "tank hub" Ingram- Barnes play. Having two forwards pretending to be PGs, offense doesn't work, rest of a team is uncomfortable, they play fast but are too big /slow for good transition defense, in same time in half court they still lack serious defensive pressure on ball, and at rim Barnes /Ingram ( Franz/ Paolo) won't offer much resistance. Unrealistic expectation from Cs to defend rim when angles of attack are impossible to defend etc.
As current final result, both teams are 1-4. I predicted Raptors to suck with one of dumbest roster constructions in years.
Silly me, should have seen so many drawing similarities.

[GelbeWand09]

Funny how Tyus (plays only a few mpg) is now the reason we are losing. If your max players and best young core evaaaaaa needs Harris or KCP or Cole to be a good team. When our so called Point Forwards need a almost 40 year old real point forward to be successful. When our elite defensive players need more defensive players next to them to be good on defense. When our so called great perimeter defending Bigs can't defend the perimeter, when our FO thinks adding 1 good 3 point shooter to a starting 5 of 4 bad threepointshooters solves our shooting, When a FO thinks you don't need playmaking, when you play SG and SF who can barely dribble at the guard spot and Never showed any kind of PG vision or even combo guard passing chops should be your PG, If your so called superstar max player so far over his career is more like the Zach LaVine of PF than a real star.... Maybe we have bigger problems.

BTW Franz should lose some muscles he put on. It makes him slower on defense.

[GelbeWand09]

Carlisle was in the finals 4 months ago

I'm not talking about last season. He coasted off of his championship for 8 years afterwards.

36 wins
41 wins
49 wins
50 wins <-- high afterwards
33 wins
24 wins
33 wins
43 wins (covid/good win percentage)
42 wins (covid year, actually good win percentage)
25 wins
35 wins

7 subpar years
six first round exits

Just saying not even the best coaches are infallible

Carlisle is an incredible coach who’s had great results everywhere he’s been. Turned Detroit into a 50-32 team and could’ve won a championship with them if he wasn’t pushed out for Brown.

Then he went to Indiana and lead them to a 61-21 record.

Went to Dallas and won a championship. In 09-10

Then back to Indiana and taking them to the ECFs just last season.

He knows how to install a winning system and he’s done so with a variety of different roster constructions. At a certain point it’s up to the players to take over, but he’s one of the best at getting them to that point.

Mosley did great early on to get the team to buy into high level defense but it looks like that one trick might be wearing out.

Yea Carlisle installed leaque leading defenses and historic good offenses, while having success. He is one of the best coaches of the last 30, 40 years.

[GelbeWand09]

If the Bane experiment goes down like this it's got the least to do with Bane. He is a proven Vet who always delivered in different systems and with a star player next to him and long time without him. It's Mose and our stars (especially Paolo) playing style making others players worse.
If he was the right target to begin with and if he ever was the solution for our problems? Not really for what we paid but he would still look like Memphis Bane in 20-25 of the other NBA teams.

[GelbeWand09]

I kind of don't want to panic.

We won 47 games with 22 year olds who are now on the verge of their prime years and won 41 games crippled last season.

Add Bane and experience should be the recipe for success.

We won 47 games despite the 22 year Olds except Franz. Every stat told you that and enough poster.

[pepe1991]

Funny how Tyus (plays only a few mpg) is now the reason we are losing. If your max players and best young core evaaaaaa needs Harris or KCP or Cole to be a good team. When our so called Point Forwards need a almost 40 year old real point forward to be successful. When our elite defensive players need more defensive players next to them to be good on defense. When our so called great perimeter defending Bigs can't defend the perimeter, when our FO thinks adding 1 good 3 point shooter to a starting 5 of 4 bad threepointshooters solves our shooting, When a FO thinks you don't need playmaking, when you play SG and SF who can barely dribble at the guard spot and Never showed any kind of PG vision or even combo guard passing chops should be your PG, If your so called superstar max player so far over his career is more like the Zach LaVine of PF than a real star.... Maybe we have bigger problems.

BTW Franz should lose some muscles he put on. It makes him slower on defense.

Jones killed us.

[dsg2021]

Paolo had 5 assists in the first 9 minutes of the game. We reverted to our old offense and he ended up with 7 assists. We were up 10 on Paolo's 5th assist. Good stuff.

And Franz was amazing in the 1st half too. Really good, solid 1st quarter for us. Even all the way to middle of 2nd quarter iirc.

[GelbeWand09]

BTW what's up with our staff (and players) making our players worse over a off-season when they change either the shot motion or make wrong body decision. Franz hitch thing, JI putting on weight despite his agility for his height being his biggest advantage and now Franz being bigger but slower on defense and he can't play efficient basketball in 2nd halfs anymore because he got no stamina in euros and this NBA season.
It's no coincidence anymore that he plays a good first half and a poor second half in almost every EuroBasket game and every NBA season game. And even at the European Championships, he looked slower than before on defense.