Let’s put the attention where it belongs, Weltman’s seat is red hot

[Skybox]

I disagree. He inherited the Henigan turd, polished it, made the playoffs twice while proving the ceiling to a tank-averse ownership group and earned their buy-in for full tear down. No mean feats.

He's learned from his draft mistakes and has built a solid foundation on draft successes. Franz, Suggs, Paolo, AB, and TDS are all playing critical roles on a contending quality roster. Jase and Penda look like additional hits.

Jett is the one bust during this rebuild, evidence that Weltman can learn and adapt.

Going all-in on Bane was timed perfectly, sequenced with our core players entering their second contracts and early primes. He's also the perfect archetype to compliment them as one of the best volume three point shooters of all time.

He handled the political landmines that cratered the Henigan era, polished the Henigan turd of a build and sold it off to fuel this rebuild. He has this rebuild ahead of schedule.

I'm surprised he hasn't been extended yet.

Agree...it's a lot easier to spin that Weltman had a great summer moreso than Mosely (at this point). It could easily be construed that everyone loves Mose, but he's in over his head now that ORL is thinking contention. I'm not joining any posse, but I could certainly envision it before too long. I don't think Weltman is in danger - Bane is clearly a very good player ..."until he got here". Same story with KCP but to a much greater degree.

Not taking sides but that's often the way it goes....generally, when a FO turns over, Coach is out too.

[eyriq]

Jeff’s striking out in half/most of his drafts is a problem.

With that said, this won’t be a serious topic until Mosley gets scapegoated.

All but one bust happened pre-rebuild. He updated his draft philosophy and it's working beautifully.

[RookieStar]

To think, if we didn't have that abnormally missed FTs one game, abnormally missed 3s the other and the other team didn't just make crazy 3s, we wouldn't have all these gloom and doom environment.

[Def Swami]

Weltman is a very mid-GM. He does the bare minimum. He makes his draft picks. He re-signs his own mediocre draft picks. Overpays to fix a weakness after sitting on his hands.

There's nothing innovative or inspiring about his work. He's living off of getting lucky in the lottery and landing the #1 pick in 2023, and Suggs and Wagner panning out. Outside of that, he hasn't proven that he's capable of building anything more than a team that can barely make the playoffs and lose in the first round.

This current iteration is still one of the 5 worst shooting teams in the NBA, in a league that values shooting more than ever. Flipping KCP for Bane alone wasn't going to fix that. There's still no starting point guard. Wendell Carter Jr. is on a $50 million/4 year deal. He's not even a top 30 center in the league and he doesn't even fit with our best players. Jonathan Isaac is on a $59 million/4 year deal and he does not play. Weltman whiffed on the 6th and 11th picks in 2023 draft. Anthony Black doesn't fit around our best players and never did; He's closer to Elfrid Payton in my eyes than Markelle Fultz ever was (speaking of which, the trade that led to us acquiring Fultz involved sending Jonathan Simmons the Sixers 2020 1st round pick back that eventually became Tyrese Maxey ). Jett Howard is a bust; we're in year 3 and he still hasn't earned the trust of the coaching staff despite the team desperately looking for any semblance of shooting. Tyus Jones is closer to retirement than he is being a useful NBA back up point guard.

The Magic core is solid. It's the moves on the margins that Weltman has been really lazy about. There's wasted cap space on players that don't play or contribute in a way that's additive to the core, which is a trend dating back to the moment Weltman got here. IMO, that's where the cumulative misses in the draft, the complete negligence of the 2nd round of the draft, and overpays in free agency add up.

I don't believe we've really maximized the value of our draft capital over the years. Mo Bamba (2018 5th pick) and Chuma Okeke (2019 16th pick) are both out of the league. Howard and possibly Black are on their way soon enough. And every 2nd round pick was either cut or traded. I like Da Silva. I'm optimistic about Jase Richardson and Noah Penda, but time will tell.

Cole Anthony (2020 15th pick) got a large contract that he had to attach an extra pick in the Bane deal just to get rid of. KCP got $66 million/3 years, which also required an extra pick in the Bane deal to get rid of. Al Farouq Aminu got a $29 million/3 year deal in 2019 to not play. Jonathan Isaac got $59 million/4 years to not play.

The league is too deep to waste draft picks, cap space, roster space like that. Weltman is who he is since he's gotten here. He's got some assets left in the chamber to make this team more balanced. But as was the case from 2017 to 2021, it takes him way too long to fix a clear problem. We held on to the Vucevic/Fournier/Gordon core far longer than was necessary; the concept of an "evaluation year" was stupid. The data was there about what that team was. The front office sat on their hands and wasted 4 years of our time on a fledgling team going nowhere. My fear is he's about to do the same.

[Husky1]

We all hear the talk and see the reasons why Mosley is taking heat and can agree with a lot of what’s being said. But if Mosley is fired before Weltman is ran out of town it will be a shame and I think you’ll see a locker room divide that will shatter this young team.

I do think Paolo would get some if not most of the blame and he would/could be called a coach killer. All can’t be fine and well behind closed doors right now and possibly going back to last season. There are little things that don’t look or sound right. But we aren’t hearing about that because those guys love Mosley and despite his strategy’s or lack of them as far as in game stuff he’s a players coach and those guys are listening.

Weltman on the other hand, he’s not important to anything going on. He’s the name behind bad drafts and mortgaging the future by trading all draft assets in the Bane deal. Not to mention resigning players that are basically worthless to us currently. Weltman was a deadman walking who had to do something to save himself and that something as the Bane deal. It’s time to move on from Weltman and give Mosley this season to also learn from Prunty.

**** Amen. Absolute war criminal. Our ownership are insane keeping him on

[Fortune Teller]

I disagree. He inherited the Henigan turd, polished it, made the playoffs twice while proving the ceiling to a tank-averse ownership group and earned their buy-in for full tear down. No mean feats.

He's learned from his draft mistakes and has built a solid foundation on draft successes. Franz, Suggs, Paolo, AB, and TDS are all playing critical roles on a contending quality roster. Jase and Penda look like additional hits.

Jett is the one bust during this rebuild, evidence that Weltman can learn and adapt.

Going all-in on Bane was timed perfectly, sequenced with our core players entering their second contracts and early primes. He's also the perfect archetype to compliment them as one of the best volume three point shooters of all time.

He handled the political landmines that cratered the Henigan era, polished the Henigan turd of a build and sold it off to fuel this rebuild. He has this rebuild ahead of schedule.

I'm surprised he hasn't been extended yet.

This is the spin we typically hear when Jeff's name comes up, but it's missing the forest for the trees. Jeff has a relatively simple job -- put a winning product on the court that can compete for championships. He's been here 9 years and we've never been out of the first round of the playoffs. 9 drafts, 9 trade deadlines, 9 free agency periods. It's actually a miracle that ownership has been as patient with him as they have. And let's be honest, the last 2 seasons (so far) have been a regression with a losing record last season and an ugly 1-4 start to this season. KCP didn't work, Bane is looking like an overpay, the ghost of Jonathan Isaac is still pulling in $15 mil per, WCJ was re-signed, bad draft picks are retained until they have no trade value. And now we're wondering what we can get in a trade for Paolo, the crown jewel of the rebuild.

I understand some people may not want to fire him, I guess, but if you want to sign him to an extension then we're not watching the same team on the court.

[VFX]

You can’t build a serious offense around Paolo Banchero. I’ve been saying this since he was drafted.

He takes 18-20 low efficiency shots a game and people think he’s a stand-in for a point guard. Lol no. Hes 6’10 and plays like he’s 6’3. More of a nice piece on offense and not a guy you build an entire team around. Thats Weltmans first mistake.

The steeper mistake here is handing money to guys that do absolutely nothing in terms of winning basketball games. Wendell Carter has always been highly suspect as a starting Center you want to pair with Paolo. Isaac even moreso considering his injury history. That isn’t even getting into the money. It’s about long term investment. Neither of those guys are worth rostering long term if you know who Paolo Banchero is and what he can and can’t do playing 36-40mpg.

Bane for 4 firsts is insane. Why? Because you don’t have the personnel or system in place that tells you what he did in Memphis is the same thing in Orlando. So you either think the NBA works like 2k, roster composition doesnt matter, or you think Mosely is a fraud. Pick one. Either way, it’s going to be interesting to see people do mental gymnastics now after I rose these concerns on this trade and pointed out why it’s not as golden as people wanted to believe at the time. Now what?

[eyriq]

This is how it will most likely go if we stay on the struggle bus.

1. New coach
2. Retool move
3. New GM
4. Retool move
5. Tear down

[JoshuaPotter]

You can’t build a serious offense around Paolo Banchero. I’ve been saying this since he was drafted.

He takes 18-20 low efficiency shots a game and people think he’s a stand-in for a point guard. Lol no. Hes 6’10 and plays like he’s 6’3. More of a nice piece on offense and not a guy you build an entire team around. Thats Weltmans first mistake.

The steeper mistake here is handing money to guys that do absolutely nothing in terms of winning basketball games. Wendell Carter has always been highly suspect as a starting Center you want to pair with Paolo. Isaac even moreso considering his injury history. That isn’t even getting into the money. It’s about long term investment. Neither of those guys are worth rostering long term if you know who Paolo Banchero is and what he can and can’t do playing 36-40mpg.

Bane for 4 firsts is insane. Why? Because you don’t have the personnel or system in place that tells you what he did in Memphis is the same thing in Orlando. So you either think the NBA works like 2k, roster composition doesnt matter, or you think Mosely is a fraud. Pick one. Either way, it’s going to be interesting to see people do mental gymnastics now after I rose these concerns on this trade and pointed out why it’s not as golden as people wanted to believe at the time. Now what?

No offense VFX. Regarding the Bane pick. If this comes as a call out so be it. I do not recall anything more from you then cautious optimism. Not exactly the sage position you are taking now.

Outside of this, I am totally a-ok with your assessment. From Paolo rookie season I have raised questions about his offense. I still am dumbfounded with no answers that satisfy my pallet. The way I have worded it is how I assess it. I still don't really hear any playcalls involving Paolo, screens, pick n rolls, ect. It's all just "paolo has the ball at the right wing, dribbles down into fadeway or attacks the rim" which...works...again, until it doesn't.

The contracts given out were bad. Full stop. More or less agreed with your take from the get go. Isaac is a great idea until it isn't and unfortunately it feels like it isn't more then it is. It kinda got exposed in Paolo first playoffs. We started Isaac and watched him brick 3s. The idea that Isaac could be saved and then unleashed didn't work.

If the game plan was to use Paolo like a Full-back and have Suggs toss him the ball for a drive down the lane, then so be it. Just commit to it Mose and not this half baked offense we have now.

[VFX]

You can’t build a serious offense around Paolo Banchero. I’ve been saying this since he was drafted.

He takes 18-20 low efficiency shots a game and people think he’s a stand-in for a point guard. Lol no. Hes 6’10 and plays like he’s 6’3. More of a nice piece on offense and not a guy you build an entire team around. Thats Weltmans first mistake.

The steeper mistake here is handing money to guys that do absolutely nothing in terms of winning basketball games. Wendell Carter has always been highly suspect as a starting Center you want to pair with Paolo. Isaac even moreso considering his injury history. That isn’t even getting into the money. It’s about long term investment. Neither of those guys are worth rostering long term if you know who Paolo Banchero is and what he can and can’t do playing 36-40mpg.

Bane for 4 firsts is insane. Why? Because you don’t have the personnel or system in place that tells you what he did in Memphis is the same thing in Orlando. So you either think the NBA works like 2k, roster composition doesnt matter, or you think Mosely is a fraud. Pick one. Either way, it’s going to be interesting to see people do mental gymnastics now after I rose these concerns on this trade and pointed out why it’s not as golden as people wanted to believe at the time. Now what?

No offense VFX. Regarding the Bane pick. If this comes as a call out so be it. I do not recall anything more from you then cautious optimism. Not exactly the sage position you are taking now.

Outside of this, I am totally a-ok with your assessment. From Paolo rookie season I have raised questions about his offense. I still am dumbfounded with no answers that satisfy my pallet. The way I have worded it is how I assess it. I still don't really hear any playcalls involving Paolo, screens, pick n rolls, ect. It's all just "paolo has the ball at the right wing, dribbles down into fadeway or attacks the rim" which...works...again, until it doesn't.

The contracts given out were bad. Full stop. More or less agreed with your take from the get go. Isaac is a great idea until it isn't and unfortunately it feels like it isn't more then it is. It kinda got exposed in Paolo first playoffs. We started Isaac and watched him brick 3s. The idea that Isaac could be saved and then unleashed didn't work.

If the game plan was to use Paolo like a Full-back and have Suggs toss him the ball for a drive down the lane, then so be it. Just commit to it Mose and not this half baked offense we have now.

June 20th in the Bane acquisition thread:

A few things are true about last season and how Bane operated in previous seasons.

Orlando has one of the slowest paced offenses in the NBA. Memphis had the fastest. Orlando ranked #30, Memphis ranked #1.
This isn't to suggest that "faster is better", but you can't be slow AND bad. That just tells me there isnt really a system at all. We know for sure that there weren't a huge variation of plays being called here.

Orlando was bottom 5 in these categories (Assist%, Assist/TO ratio, EG%, and TS%)
Ultimately, this means Orlando had the least amount of possessions (ranked last), while also being the least efficient league-wide as the worst offense. Then they decided that shooting was a larger issue than ball movement. Thats a pretty impressive task to be honest with two players on exceedingly high usage and you are handing max contract to both. It tells me the system is broken in more ways than adding one shooter.

(….) Bane in Orlando without the aforementioned system is what player exactly? Is he still putting up the same numbers in the slowest offense in the league, on the lowest amount of possessions, shared with two guys needing the ball in their hands to be effective, with bottom ranked assist numbers and percentage? Color me slightly skeptical.

I'm not saying it wont work, but I haven't seen a flourishing system yet where offense is easily replicated with the players you expect it to come from. It's not like we have been watching Giannis, Jokic, or SGA here and we are adding a missing ingredient to put Orlando over the edge offensively. We haven't seen a real system at all yet.

The argument here from people on this trade is that we haven't seen a real system yet, due to shooting, and adding Bane is somehow foundational to this all working. Its a bigger risk than people actually can conceive of yet because it required a lot of assets and it implies the current system isn't inherently flawed on principle as the actual numbers suggest.. We will see.

And-

(…) he won’t have as much freedom here. Why? Because the system is still Paolo and Franz with the ball in their hands creating offense for themselves as a priority in the slowest offense possible.

Thats not really refutable based on last seasons numbers, unless you think the offense will be entirely different next season.


EDIT:

Weltman built an inherently flawed roster under the assumption that Franz and Paolo can work without a point guard each needing to take 20 shots each a game to win. Mosely is a yes man that enabled the idea that Paolo is a point forward you can build a team around without knowing how to utilize him properly and without a point guard to get him into those specific circumstances off ball. Acquiring Desmond Bane for 4 picks is a triple down on the idea that it wasnt the system that was flawed, but that improving a position by 1 total shooter was actually the solution instead of admitting it was the roster construction that fell in their lap.

[The-Stallion70]

Should we trade Bane for KCP? KCP shooting better from 3 so far this year and is on a better contract.

[MasterGMer]

The thing and the move Weltman implemented is about timeline and right moment.

I am not all for his move. But I do like it.

Just 3 years ago, we won the NO.1 by picking Paolo and now we are talking the Win now move. What is it? It is about careful planning and adding pieces on the right time

Did we make mistakes? Yes, heck yes. Jett Howard doesn't pan out and AB is a mix result. We signed KCP and traded him a season later. We extended JI and Wendell, and both have struggled this early season. Cole is out. But he is having a good season in Milwaukee. Plus we overpaid Bane and we are now all in on this group.

If somehow this season things still don't work out, I think someone is going to take the blame. And imo I think it would be Mose first

I really like this group. But our roster has flaws hence the disappointing offensive rating plus defensive collapse in the 4 game losing streak

It is a learning process but how long should we keep learning instead of winning games? Time is clicking...

[three3d]

This franchise has been in existence for 36 years. Now with 36 years of history in the league why is it that Penny Hardaway and Jameer Nelson are probably the only 2 point guards people can recall us having that we drafted.

Never mind the fact neither of them was actually really drafted by us, they in fact were Draft Day trades.


This franchise has a. LONG history of undervaluing the point guard position.