Defense Only: Alvin Robertson vs Joe Dumars

[AStark1991]

From a purely defensive standpoint, on one hand you have Robertson who was a stat sheet stuffer, and on the other you have Dumars who was a classic case of "stats don't always tell the entire story." All in all, who do you think was the better defensive player?

[kcktiny]

"stats don't always tell the entire story."

Each player's first decade in the league:

Robertson - 24699 min, 2445 def rebs, 2112 steals, 323 blocks
Dumars - 26581 min, 1123 def rebs, 736 steals, 75 blocks

Explain how stats do not tell this story.

[AStark1991]

"stats don't always tell the entire story."

Each player's first decade in the league:

Robertson - 24699 min, 2445 def rebs, 2112 steals, 323 blocks
Dumars - 26581 min, 1123 def rebs, 736 steals, 75 blocks

Explain how stats do not tell this story.

Clearly you can see that Robertson was better at stuffing the stat sheet, but that came at the expense of him being a gambler which resulted in him being significantly more foul prone in comparison to Dumars. Whereas Joe was never going to light up the box score, but I feel very confident in saying that he was the superior man-to-man defender in this comparison. I guess it all depends on whether you prefer a guy who was more of a pickpocket and off-ball chaser (Robertson) or a guy who was more of a true 1v1 lockdown type (Dumars)

[The Master]

I was never interested in really doing a serious 'tape research' about that (mainly because he didn't play on good teams, so it would be painful to watch, I presume), but I remember watching old tapes of Alvin Robertson against the Bulls and being shocked how (for his defensive reputation) undisciplined he was as a defender, and how much he lacked basic fundamentals in individual defense. Considering his teams were never any good defensively (and they weren't really good overall), I remember asking myself if there's anyone who really did a serious breakdown of his defense.

With Dumars, it's just much easier to actually assess who he was as a player defensively. So while I can't convincingly answer the OP's question, maybe there's someone who actually did some research on Robertson besides anecdotal evidence like me right now.

[kcktiny]

I guess it all depends on whether you prefer a guy who was more of a pickpocket and off-ball chaser (Robertson) or a guy who was more of a true 1v1 lockdown type (Dumars)

Do your homework. Robertson was the definitive lock down defender.

and how much he lacked basic fundamentals in individual defense.

if there's anyone who really did a serious breakdown of his defense

Yeh, you watched him alright. Guess I'll have to post this for the 4th time:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3uMsFBvdyI0

Armstrong played 5 seasons against Robertson.

Go watch some more film on Alvin Robertson.

[Doctor MJ]

"stats don't always tell the entire story."

Each player's first decade in the league:

Robertson - 24699 min, 2445 def rebs, 2112 steals, 323 blocks
Dumars - 26581 min, 1123 def rebs, 736 steals, 75 blocks

Explain how stats do not tell this story.

The box score literally tells us nothing specific about a player's man defense, which is always been known that it tells a very incomplete picture of a player's defense in general.

[Doctor MJ]

I guess it all depends on whether you prefer a guy who was more of a pickpocket and off-ball chaser (Robertson) or a guy who was more of a true 1v1 lockdown type (Dumars)

Do your homework. Robertson was the definitive lock down defender.

and how much he lacked basic fundamentals in individual defense.

if there's anyone who really did a serious breakdown of his defense

Yeh, you watched him alright. Guess I'll have to post this for the 4th time:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3uMsFBvdyI0

Armstrong played 5 seasons against Robertson.

Go watch some more film on Alvin Robertson.

So, you literally can't be the definitive lock down defender when you're also the definitive ball hawk. Not saying it's impossible to have the talent to do both things in theory, only that you don't get the steal numbers he gets without gambling.

Maybe I missed something with the YouTube, but as far as I saw the only specifics he mentions about Robertson was about the DPOY and the steals before the video repeated. This is particularly weird because BJ wasn't in the league when Robertson won the DPOY, so he appears to be talking primarily about stuff that happened before he played more so than anything specific to his own experience.

[Owly]

Do your homework. Robertson was the definitive lock down defender.

On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and too many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

More generally on defense they note the awards coming, argue his reputation is bound to his steals and acknowledge his production there. However whilst they acknowledge his steals "on the other hand, the consensus is that he takes too many chances, often leaving the defense vulnerable when he gambles."
On a 6 point scale that covers reserves as well as starters (D to AAA, no + or - except on overall grades in this edition) they grade him as an A (the third highest. For what it's worth Dumars got a AAA.

Barry and Cohn are just two people (though they thank a bunch of league sources for discussions and shared opinions). It's just an opinion. For one year (after 1990) they do give him a triple A grade and say that "in years past, and early onn last season, he was criticized for gambling too much and leaving his team exposed. But as the season progressed, Robertson's thefts came within the proper context of the Bucks team defense" ... however it should be noted the next year he then goes back down to A+ and the Defensive section goes ...

Robertson's D can be summed up in one phrase: He chases the ball ... One result: all those steals (he finished with 3.0 a game and led the league for the third time) ... Another: He leaves his man wide open, leaving the Bucks' defense exposed ... Fact is, Robertson does not play within Milwaukee's team defensive schemes and it hurts the team ... "His defense is instinctual and most of his instincts aren't very good," explained one critic .... If he puts his mind to it - a big if - he can be a decent one-on-one defender ... A powerful jumper, Robertson's an above average defensive rebounder for a 2.

Here note the reporting for the man defense side where he "can" be "decent" "if he puts his mind to it", which is "a big if".
These three years are ones in which he was collecting defensive accolades.

This has tended to focus on the negative (though '91 was the full Defense/Defensive Rebounding section) because the steals are a given and the discussion given the assertions

Do your homework. Robertson was the definitive lock down defender.

(Double emphasis in original) ... that's a high bar and if true perhaps unlikely to get these comments (even the best year comes with a swipe at prior instincts) ... mileage may vary but this is league insiders with access to other insiders and these guys are putting their name to it. If someone is valuing such sources ...


For what it's worth Barry and Cohn aren't in love with the D of older versions of Dumars either, but for 89-92 he accumulates four AAA's and in 93 that slides to "merely" AA.

[kcktiny]

you literally can't be the definitive lock down defender when you're also the definitive ball hawk

Why? Because you say so? Why do you think he was named DPOY in 1985-86?

Why do you think Michael Jordan was in 1987-88? He lead the league in steals in 1987-88 with 259. According to you he can't also be a great on-ball shot defender too?

What a bunch of nonsense.

Again clear proof you were not watching the NBA in the mid-80s.

you don't get the steal numbers he gets without gambling

Again, because you say so? I didn't know you to be the authority on this.

Maybe I missed something with the YouTube

Yes you clearly did. It's not even a 60 sec video. He says Robertson was "an exceptional defensive player" and a "monster on the defensive end". And this is coming from the player that played the 4th most minutes on the Bulls 3peat title team of 1990-91 to 1992-93, when Robertson played with Milwaukee.

This is particularly weird because BJ wasn't in the league when Robertson won the DPOY, so he appears to be talking primarily about stuff that happened before he played more so than anything specific to his own experience.

Dude what are you missing? He played 5 seasons against Robertson.

Rick Barry, Jordan Cohn, 1989 wrote:
On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and too many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

"except his own man"? All-defensive team 6 straight seasons and these two say he does not guard his own man? You sure they weren't talking about Rick Barry himself?

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/5945/your-nightmare-defender-alvin-robertson-edition

Gary Payton - Alvin Robertson would make your life miserable. He was a hawkish defensive player. He's who I modeled my defense after.

Ron Harper - Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player.

So, who's opinion should we trust? Payton and Harper or Barry and Cohn? Neither Barry nor Cohn ever played against Robertson. I'll trust the opinions of those that actually played against him.

[Owly]

I guess it all depends on whether you prefer a guy who was more of a pickpocket and off-ball chaser (Robertson) or a guy who was more of a true 1v1 lockdown type (Dumars)

Do your homework. Robertson was the definitive lock down defender.

and how much he lacked basic fundamentals in individual defense.

if there's anyone who really did a serious breakdown of his defense

Yeh, you watched him alright. Guess I'll have to post this for the 4th time:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3uMsFBvdyI0

Armstrong played 5 seasons against Robertson.

Go watch some more film on Alvin Robertson.

So, you literally can't be the definitive lock down defender when you're also the definitive ball hawk. Not saying it's impossible to have the talent to do both things in theory, only that you don't get the steal numbers he gets without gambling.

Maybe I missed something with the YouTube, but as far as I saw the only specifics he mentions about Robertson was about the DPOY and the steals before the video repeated. This is particularly weird because BJ wasn't in the league when Robertson won the DPOY, so he appears to be talking primarily about stuff that happened before he played more so than anything specific to his own experience.

To be honest Armstrong only becomes a starter and a player playing over half the game in 1993. So the pool of experience might be limited
Robertson plays 5 games against the Bulls that season, two of which he plays over half the game. And with Robertson as an SG and Armstrong a PG, he'd more likely experience him as a rover than a man defender.
Oh and anecdotes 20-30 years after the fact ... might be of somewhat limited utility anyhow.

[Owly]

Rick Barry, Jordan Cohn, 1989 wrote:
On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and too many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

"except his own man"? All-defensive team 6 straight seasons and these two say he does not guard his own man? You sure they weren't talking about Rick Barry himself?

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/5945/your-nightmare-defender-alvin-robertson-edition

Gary Payton - Alvin Robertson would make your life miserable. He was a hawkish defensive player. He's who I modeled my defense after.

Ron Harper - Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player.

So, who's opinion should we trust? Payton and Harper or Barry and Cohn? Neither Barry nor Cohn ever played against Robertson. I'll trust the opinions of those that actually played against him.

Not sure how much it's worth engaging further but for what it's worth

1) I would tend to take scouts, coaches and analysts version over players casual recollections. I wouldn't weight either massively but Cohn and Barry are putting their name to something where they have to be critical (in both senses) in order to be credible, doing so contemporaneously and systematically so, whilst I'm certainly open to them being wrong it means more than players chatter long after the fact.

2) "You sure they weren't talking about Rick Barry himself" ... for what it's worth I think I'm lower than most on Barry and his defense. But this "I know you are but what am I?" type reasoning ... what does it have to do with anything? I really don't understand this.

3) It's difficult to get to a place of internal consistency but given the earlier charges of circularity (which isn't necessarily in and of itself wrong) elsewhere ... it does seem team defense matters to you (citing it for Bird and Moncrief) ... except when it doesn't

Dude, you can list the Spurs defensive ratings all you want. Robertson was named all-defensive team 6 years in a row, voted by NBA head coaches.

Tell you what - go show that Spurs team data to the head coaches that voted him all-defensive team 6 straight seasons and you tell them they were wrong. I'll watch you cower away from their responses.

Incidentally ... I'm not sure why someone would be cowering from these gentlemen. And indeed seem to be arguing against team defense as a measure of individuals in the case of other players

T.R. Dunn played for a pathetically bad defensive team - the early/mid 80s Denver Nuggets. The worst team in the league defensively from 1980-81 to 1985-86.

How good of a defender was he? Let's test your NBA 80s knowledge.

You care about qualitative opinions from the basketball people at the time (when anonymously given, notionally by head coaches) but comeback that Barry and Cohn were talking about Barry when consistently raising concerns about about his gambling (including quotations from other, albeit anonymous, league sources).

Then there's open hostility to the notion that the boxscore tells the whole story of defense ...

I like many tend to point to blocks as the key defensive box score piece, but they don't tell the whole story.

Wait a minute - they don't? Then why don't you tell us what the whole story is.

And then finally there's the notion that you can" educate yourself" on Robertson's defense simply by looking at the results of a youtube search for his name

Go to youtube, type in Alvin Robertson, and educate yourself.

Which will show highlight reels, what I assume is AI slop about "The Life and Tragic Ending of Alvin Robertson", single plays, coverage of his legal troubles or single game highlights.

In terms of internal consistency both in terms of taking what appear to be quite contradictory tacks depending on what suits the player, and then just how one would integrate some of the other views (seemingly implied view of boxscore does tell the whole story of defense, idea that the results of a player's youtube search would be a good "education" on a player, team results really matter/don't matter, basketball operations people's view matter/don't matter ...

[kcktiny]

I would tend to take scouts

Jordan Cohn was not an NBA scout until the mid-2000s. His books are from the mid-80s to mid-90s. Back then he was an NBA fan like the rest of us. No different than Martin Manley, Bob Bellotti, or Dave Heeren.

Or are you referring to some other NBA scouts?

coaches

Good. NBA head coaches voted Alvin Robertson to the all-defensive team 6 straight seasons.

version over players casual recollections

This is classic. You don't like their opinions even though they are the ones that actually played against Robertson. Their opinions are just "casual".

it does seem team defense matters to you... except when it doesn't

Dude, in the very re-post you just posted it also says "Robertson was named all-defensive team 6 years in a row, voted by NBA head coaches".

So an NBA player was named all-defensive 1st team 6 times by "coaches", where you just above said:

I would tend to take scouts, coaches... version

From a bad defensive team. You can't have it both ways.

Are all players on bad defensive teams bad defenders? The 4 seasons he played for the Spurs and was named all-defensive team San Antonio as a team was 5th worst in the league defensively (108.4 pts/100poss allowed)

Yet NBA head coaches thought he was deserving of the all-defensive team - each of those 4 seasons.

Gee I wonder why?

Which will show highlight reels, what I assume is AI slop about "The Life and Tragic Ending of Alvin Robertson", single plays, coverage of his legal troubles or single game highlights.

Enjoy:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUBEEyaED16Ak8ah9zzI4ZiE&index=3

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUBEEyaED16Ak8ah9zzI4ZiE&index=20

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUBEEyaED16Ak8ah9zzI4ZiE&index=32

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUBypd_plH-6asMe--MDXsip&index=116

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUATw10Und_zUrgY2X8GiDxi&index=16

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLREh7LcAdMUATw10Und_zUrgY2X8GiDxi&index=25

[Warspite]

Interesting fact:

92-93 Alvin was Dumars backup. Dumars was 1st team all Defense that year and 10th in MVP

[tsherkin]

Why? Because you say so? Why do you think he was named DPOY in 1985-86?

Because the voters were very, very much not nuanced. They saw a lot of steals and voted for him. There is a reason that guards dropped off the DPOY map after the 80s apart from a small number of exceptions.

[kcktiny]

Because the voters were very, very much not nuanced.

nuanced - having or characterized by subtle and often appealingly complex qualities, aspects, or distinctions (www.m-w.com)

So what qualities, aspects, or distinctions did one very, very much need in the 1980s to be better DPOY voters?

That same year NBA head coaches voted Robertson to the all-defensive team (and the following 5 seasons). Were they nuanced voters?

They saw a lot of steals and voted for him.

The following year Robertson had 260 steals, Michael Cooper just 78 steals. But Cooper was named DPOY. How'd that happen if these not-so-nuanced voters were looking for lots of steals?

Also in 1988-89 John Stockton had 263 steals, did not receive a single vote for DPOY. In 1984-85 Michael Ray Richardson had 243 steals, received just 2 DPOY votes.

There is a reason that guards dropped off the DPOY map after the 80s apart from a small number of exceptions.

Well don't keep us in suspense. What's this reason?