Shams: Grizzlies trade Desmond Bane to Magic for KCP, Cole Anthony, 4 1sts, 1 Pick Swap...

[mademan]

Nothing more overvalued than smallish scoring guards. Bane will turn it around as he isnt nearly this bad, but it was a huge overpay at the time that only ages well if Orlando sneaks through in a weak eastern conference

[eyriq]

I may be misunderstanding you but this doesn't seem to make sense. You have two guys who need the ball and your solution is to add yet another who needs the ball (a traditional floor general)?

So then you have Banchero and Wagner decline since as you say they are best with the ball in their hands.

Doesn't it seem like you're thinking about development while the team is thinking about winning now? They just traded 4 picks for Bane. Sacrificing something in-season for the sake of "I feel like Banchero should be better off ball" doesn't seem like it's reasonable advice. Maybe you just don't agree with this teams strategy in the big picture?

It only doesn’t make sense if you are unfamiliar with how Orlando’s offense is run.

Neither Paolo or Franz are efficient at making plays for anyone but themselves a majority of the time. This is why you see Bane struggling now with less touches.

It’s not like they are Cade averaging 9-10 assists per game while averaging 20+ points. They are individual playmakers that operate in isolation and aren’t terrific shooters.

I think I'm probably far too familiar with Orlando's offense for a non-fan.

You're measuring the playmaking ability of Banchero and Wagner within a warped experiment. Your team has had the most clogged paint in the NBA for a couple of years now - IIRC it was the worst offense (by shooting) for a playoff team in the past ten years. Surely you've heard this being discussed on your boards. You've notice teams ALWAYS pack the paint against you guys specifically (which murders drive and kick opportunities). That's not normal. It's not a slight inconvenience. Your players are exerting way more effort to achieve a way less efficient shot than they would get in any average treadmill offense.

So you can't be jumping to conclusions right now on a team that's just building chemistry. You can't be making statements like "they can't make plays for anyone". It's WAAAAY too early. You've never seen this guys in average spacing (nevermind the excellent spacing you will ultimately require to win a title).

Also frankly they are a clunky fit with each other even if you put the greatest PG of all time on the floor with them. They both can't shoot and nothing you acquire will make up for that. Franz's defender will always harass Paolo and vice versa. They can't run PnR together I'm sure without even looking at stats. If you bring in a PG both their defenders will sag and just worsen your spacing issue.

I think you should be a little more open minded and realistic about their current situation. They can just click next week and not a single person outside of a minority of magic fans would be surprised.

This is exactly the right assessment. You've tapped into the vision of Weltman as an outside observer and that is super impressive. Jumbo playmakers require space to operate. Rim pressure, offensive rebounding, and sprayouts are the name of the game for this build and hence why a three point specialist (+) player like Bane is such a premium for Orlando.

[Sane]

It only doesn’t make sense if you are unfamiliar with how Orlando’s offense is run.

Neither Paolo or Franz are efficient at making plays for anyone but themselves a majority of the time. This is why you see Bane struggling now with less touches.

It’s not like they are Cade averaging 9-10 assists per game while averaging 20+ points. They are individual playmakers that operate in isolation and aren’t terrific shooters.

You're measuring the playmaking ability of Banchero and Wagner within a warped experiment. Your team has had the most clogged paint in the NBA for a couple of years now - IIRC it was the worst offense (by shooting) for a playoff team in the past ten years.

Uh huh.

And why do you think that is? I see you are slowly putting the pieces together. You almost have it.

Suggs is a good shooter. Gary Harris, KCP, and Desmond Bane are good shooters. Wendell Carter isn’t abysmal for a Center.

So you either think Mosely isn’t capable of getting shooters into more open looks, or we are agreeing that they aren’t utilizing those two guys properly within a better system.

Surely you aren’t looking at their per game totals for the last 4 seasons and saying that they are going to turn a corner and become playmaking maestros and that a high volume shooter like Bane, in the fastest paced team offensively last season, is going to replicate similar numbers because “it just needs more time”. No, he’s getting the same amount of looks as those other guys because it’s the system.. obviously.

Chief you're stretching your argument now. There's no coach or PG - even Suggs - who would make a team of good shooters into the worst ones on ten years. These arguments don't make any sense so far. Tbh it feels like you just subjectively prefer to do things a traditional way.

I think what you're not seeing is this is a new team. Also, they were in poor spacing before while we literally don't know how the offense will perform this season. Your offensive rating is as valid as your W/L record right now. Just way too early. They have a few games together. The idea that they won't build chemistry because they sucked at shooting last season >> I don't even know how one comes to this conclusion.

Yes, the Magic should 100% be given time to see how this goes and what skills improvements were made over the summer. You know someone can improve their jumper but not have shown it in the first 5-6 games? Happens all the time.

I think they'll be fine. Mosley is a below average offensive coach. He will just need 10-20 games.

[threethehardway]

This vision was working out quite nicely for the Magic last season before Paolo, Franz, and Suggs got hurt. I’ll give them a bit of time to turn the ship around, given they’re most likely a bit rusty and Desmond needs some time to adapt.

The only thing that really worries me is Banchero’s play - his shot selection and overall efficiency aren’t exactly inspiring.

For the record, I also don’t think they’ll be able to play effective playoffs basketball using this formula, but I’m not 100% sure - they’ve never really had the opportunity to give that an honest try. Right now, they’re playing below what they’re capable of, even with the roster deficiencies you mentioned.

I don't think it was working. Their offense was finished 27th last year. The year before last year it finished 22th. Franz and Paolo played enough games to not finish 27th, their roster is just that bad.

The Magic doesn't have a roster issue per se, they have a cultural and organizational issue from the GM to the stats team, to the scouts and to the coach.

The entire organization don't understand modern NBA offense. They are being contrarian for the sake of it.

They built their team like a Eric Spoelstra tanking team. You get a bunch of defensive guys with various offensive skills at a below average level but intriguing enough so you can watch them try stuff to see what is worth developing.

Well, the Magic are doing this while having two All--Star level players.

At a certain point you build an offensive roster. You get shooters, playmakers and you install an offense that fits your two wings, so they can do what they do best.

You don't go and pay a kings ransom for one guy who isn't an All-NBA player. That's what failing organizations do.

Until the Magic clean house, this team has no chance.

They went and got a coach who is just a try hard coach who has them playing defense 200 mph a hour but don't have a coherent offensive system, so their GM just hands him anybody that can slide their feet and fits their physical profile.

The Magic simply doesn't value skill and finesse and basketball is a game of skill and finesse.

[thelead]

If Bane forgets how to shoot in Orlando, I’ll be beside myself…

Desmond Bane: 25.8 3P%
KCP: 34.4 3P%
Coward (taken with Magic picks): 47.8 3P%

Mosley will have some explaining to do if this keeps up. You can only point to coaching if Desmond really doesn't click in Orlando. I've already heard excuses from some magic fans but Bane was consistent in Memphis with or without Ja.

All that said, we aren't even 10 games in so sample size has to be taken into account. Let's revisit this in 10 games or so.

But yes, right now, I am beside myself as I watch him brick 3 after 3.

[Sane]

Who's the magic's top offensive assistant?

[BadMofoPimp]

Who's the magic's top offensive assistant?

Mosely?

[-Luke-]

Who's the magic's top offensive assistant?

Mosely?

They should make Mo Wagner offensive assistant while he's out.

[threethehardway]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

[ReggiesKnicks]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

2-3 years.

[TheChaser]

Who's the magic's top offensive assistant?

Joe Prunty I believe

[threethehardway]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

2-3 years.

Two to three years?

That's not saying when, that's saying never.

Throw the entire organization away if the coach and GM is there in 2 to 3 years.

[thelead]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

When we get a coach that has a good track record at running an offense. Unless you think Bane just forgot how to play basketball over the summer and it's just coincidence that he joins one of the worst offenses and the offense doesn't look any better even though he is a career 41% 3pt shooter (with a 59.5 career TS% too)

[ReggiesKnicks]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

2-3 years.

Two to three years?

That's not saying when, that's saying never.

Throw the entire organization away if the coach and GM is there in 2 to 3 years.

My point is that it takes 2-3 years to assess a trade.

[threethehardway]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

When we get a coach that has a good track record at running an offense. Unless you think Bane just forgot how to play basketball over the summer and it's just coincidence that he joins one of the worst offenses and the offense doesn't look any better even though he is a career 41% 3pt shooter (with a 59.5 career TS% too)

I don't think Bane is that good of a player to begin with.

I think people that think Bane was anywhere near even Lavine level are wrong.

What is happening to Bane is what happened to Dejounte Murray. You put them on a team that has expectations of performance to solve a problem and they can not do it because they were never that good


In fact, I only think about 30 NBA players are legitimately good to great NBA players that you can an stick anywhere to solve a roster problem and Bane isn't one of them.

If anyone seriously thought Desmond Bane, who suffered with inconsistent shooting and self creation was going to the Magic and was going to be good for them you didn't watch enough Grizzlies games.

It's like people who thought Dejounte Murray was a good point guard because they box scored watched him get triple doubles late at night and come to find out he won't defend, take contact and stop shooting miserable pull ups.

Desmond Bane is your Dejounte Murray. Got a player that you don't need to solve a problem you aren't willing to fix for a price that nobody else was willing to pay.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Come on Magic fans, when is it too late to say when?

When we get a coach that has a good track record at running an offense. Unless you think Bane just forgot how to play basketball over the summer and it's just coincidence that he joins one of the worst offenses and the offense doesn't look any better even though he is a career 41% 3pt shooter (with a 59.5 career TS% too)

I don't think Bane is that good of a player to begin with.

I think people that think Bane was anywhere near even Lavine level are wrong.

What is happening to Bane is what happened to Dejounte Murray. You put them on a team that has expectations of performance to solve a problem and they can not do it because they were never that good


In fact, I only think about 30 NBA players are legitimately good to great NBA players that you can an stuxk anywhere to solve a roster problem and Babe isn't one of them.

If anyone seriously thought Desmond Bane, who suffered with inconsistent shooting and self creation was going to the Magic and was going to be good for them you didn't watch enough Grizzlies games.

It's like people who thought Dejounte Murray was a good point guard because they box scored watched him get triple doubles late at night and come to find out he won't defend, take contact and stop shooting miserable pull ups.

Desmond Bane is your Dejounte Murray. Got a player that you don't need to solve a problem you aren't willing to fix for a price that nobody else was willing to pay.

that's literally what Memphis did and he shined. The more likely issue is that the offense running through two 6'9" point forwards, neither of which is a great three point shooter (Wagner has been better this year so far), isn't doing anyone any favors. Could be they just need to figure things out and patience is required. Could mean they need to move someone so roles are more properly defined

[God Squad]

These trades take time. We've played 8 games, and people are already calling it a failure?

[Pointgod]

These trades take time. We've played 8 games, and people are already calling it a failure?

Yeah exactly. This trade reminds me of Donovan Mitchell to the Cavs. Their first year was underwhelming, then they upgraded their coach and are now expected to compete for the finals. The talent is there, I just think Mosley isn’t using them to the best of their capabilities plus it will take time.

[RSP83]

These trades take time. We've played 8 games, and people are already calling it a failure?

No time will ever be enough to justify that ridiculous trade.

[JujitsuFlip]

These trades take time. We've played 8 games, and people are already calling it a failure?

Yeah exactly. This trade reminds me of Donovan Mitchell to the Cavs. Their first year was underwhelming, then they upgraded their coach and are now expected to compete for the finals. The talent is there, I just think Mosley isn’t using them to the best of their capabilities plus it will take time.

Ehhhhh, not really true.

Cavs won 51 games that season, secured HCA in the playoffs, and Mitchell was named to his first All-NBA team of his career. Mitchell's year 1 was a great regular season.

Cavs also started 8-1 that season before they went on their 5 game losing streak. But they followed it up by winning 14 of their next 19 games.

Maybe give the Magic until Christmas but i do not see the similarities at all between the current Magic and the early season 2022 Cavs.