Roster is a mess - missed draft picks are part of reason

[CPT]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

[nikster]

The Spurs are basically the anti-Raptors. They saw a team that was going nowhere and sold their players off while they still had value (Poeltl, White and Murray). They purposely bottomed out while collecting a surplus of 1sts.

Compare that to the Raptors who were forced to tank through their own ineptness even though they OWED valuable draft capital. They got middling (or no, in FVV’s case) returns for their former core because they held on too long.

Tanking guarantees nothing but the Spurs put themselves in the best position to try and make it a success. Compared to them the Raptors have been managed very poorly.

It’s honestly a joke that we missed the playoffs for 3 straight years and the best we managed to do was draft 13th and 9th in those years. Anyone defending it is just a homer.

How can you say the Spurs got rid of their core while they had value? Look at that 48 win team Derozans first year. They lost virtually all the contributors to that team for very little.

Aldridge, Mills, Belinelli, and Gay all just walked. They traded Bertans for a few games of washed Demare Carroll. Bryn Forbes traded for nothing of value. Derozans return was a future first and Young who allowed them to move up a bit in a later draft. Derrick White is the only one they got good value for of their top 8 contributors. Not to mention they were in that position because they traded Kawhi for an extremely flawed all star rather than blow it up.

TWO would have absolutely hated their asset management right up until the Murray trade.

Why keep harping on the DeRozan years? Let's just assume SAS were wrong to have traded for him, but they nonetheless rebuilt/tanked at the right time trading away Derrick White and Dejonte Murray for a host of draft picks & swaps in 2022, and Poeltl in 2023 for more picks that also quicken the tank. All the alleged wrongs they did prior & during DeRozan years became moot because they rebuilt/tanked at the right time and got Wemby.

In the meantime, we did the opposite in 2023 and expended draft capital at the trade deadline to get Poeltl to try to make the playoffs and failed and haven't made the playoffs any year since the trade. Inexcusable.

The issue I had with Masai post 2019 was he'd try to win at beginning of every year and only decide to tank midway when it became clear we were too far out to make the playoffs. These halfhearted tanks cost us draft position. Spurs did it the right way at the right time and got Wemby. They were lucky of course, but as Benjamin Franklin once noted: "Diligence is the mother of good luck." SAS did their diligence & timed it perfectly.

Yeah, like I said erased by pure luck. People want to harp on the Raptors asset management but gloss over they let most of the 48 win team go for nothing

And in your comment is the implication that Spurs were not just lucky they got Wemby from lottery odds, but that they specifically only waited to tank that season due to Wemby. I would argue that the Spurs tried to compete as long as they possibly could, happened to completely run out of assets from which they could reasonably build a competitive team, and would have been tanking that year regardless of who was available. If it was anybody but Wemby they are not in a particularly great spot.

[YogurtProducer]

You just in that paragraph made my point lmao....Where were the Spurs when they were winning 30-35 wins and picking 18th/19th/11th/12th/9th? Were they a good team at all in them years? Did they have a bright future everyone was excited about? or were they just a team going no where?

You tell me lol....What exactly changed for the Spurs since them mid and bad seasons with bad draft picks? They started to tank and tried to go for high end draft picks....Thats what changed and helped them succeed.

They moved up in the lottery 3 straight years. That is what changed. Like are you freakin' kidding me man?

2025 - 8th best odds - 26% chance to move up to the top 4
2024 - 5th best odds - 42% chance to move up to the top 4
2023 - 3rd best odds - 52% chacne to move up (or stay top 4, rather)

2022 - 9th best odds - 20% chance to move up
2021 - 12th best odds - 8% chance to move up
2020 - 11th best odds - 10% chacne to move up

So yes, you are right they "had better odds" but they still moved up in a draft 3 times in 3 years when statistically they had a 5% chance of that happening. Thats right, they had a lower % chance of moving up in 2023 thru 2025 3 times than they did moving up ONCE between 2020 and 2022.

What changed for the Spurs? LUCK.

Imagine if 2023 thru 2025 they didn't move up once (which was more likely to happen than 3 times), and they got Egor Demin, Ron Holland, and Scoot Henderson instead of Wemby/Castle/Harper.

Lol you also just proved my point in that the higher you pick the better the outcome....Spurs when they got the 3 best players they have now in Wemby/Harper/Castle they actually tried to get really good odds, 3rd,5th odds you have to tank the right way to get them odds which helped them move up, 2025 Was the one you can look at and say they got really Lucky to move from 8-2...

Thing is Raptors are in the exact same situation the Spurs were in when they were trying to win with DeRozan/Aldridge but were not good enough and they kept having horrible odds at getting a top pick to get any exciting player to change the outcome of their team...We have no players on our current team that will change the direction of the team...We need to find a player that can until then we will be a sorry franchise that will keep drafting the Dicks/Jakobes of the world and will be stuck in the play in cycle.

Jesus man. It’s like you read my post and ignored everything I said. Impressive.

The spurs had an incredible luck

[Clutch0z24]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Yep it could have been another team that got Wemby that is very much true....Heck could of even been the Raptors if we were smarter....

That is why im generally upset with the direction we have been going for many years now....Where i was at is Raptors after getting Barnes should have went in the direction towards the draft and by now we prolly have another great prospect to pair with Barnes because we need more than just Barnes...

I think the Raptors Front office (When Masai was here) were one of the best drafting teams in the NBA....It only made sense to play to our strength and still could be....We need top end talent bad.... Tanking doesn't mean you 100 percent get that player but if you try enough the chances are higher you get a good enough pick in the right draft class to get that player...

2026 Draft is one of them ones that could turn your franchise around if you get the right pick....But ofc we will go for the play ins and end up with a 13thish pick and we will be in the exact same situation next year again.

[Prestige]

It’s mostly indecisive leadership. You see this all the time in the corporate world, some companies hang on too long to bad decisions and are unable to be proactive enough o continue to survive. Masai and Bobby barely made any trades until the end. I think there was a 3 year span where they made 1 trade. The were essentially MIA, resting in their laurels and enjoying the good life, until reality hit.

If they were gonna let Masai go, they should have cleaned house and got rid of Bobby too. I would have preferred to see a new vision.

[YogurtProducer]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

That’s a horrible argument, because tanking more often than not results in more tanking.

If the Spurs get Scoot / Holland / Demin the last 3 years, are they a success? Is there any guarantee they get a stud in the next 3 years in that alternate reality?

Fact of the matter - they got lucky. Not taking anything away from them because every contender gets lucky in some fashion. But they easily could have been the Hornets, or Wizards, or Jazz, or Kings, or Nets, or Pelican, who have tanked and rebuilt time and time again for a decade outside small blips of some decent play.

It’s not even me being anti-tank, but you gotta be realistic about these things. Tanking is a strategy that is incredibly luck based. You gotta be lucky to hit in the lottery; then lucky again that you move up in a year with prospects worth moving up for.

The Spurs had a 5% chance of moving up how they did. That’s incredibly low and if they did not get Wemby, they’re still in the lottery today because outside Wemby they don’t have any surefire studs.

[YogurtProducer]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Yep it could have been another team that got Wemby that is very much true....Heck could of even been the Raptors if we were smarter....

That is why im generally upset with the direction we have been going for many years now....Where i was at is Raptors after getting Barnes should have went in the direction towards the draft and by now we prolly have another great prospect to pair with Barnes because we need more than just Barnes...

I think the Raptors Front office (When Masai was here) were one of the best drafting teams in the NBA....It only made sense to play to our strength and still could be....We need top end talent bad.... Tanking doesn't mean you 100 percent get that player but if you try enough the chances are higher you get a good enough pick in the right draft class to get that player...

2026 Draft is one of them ones that could turn your franchise around if you get the right pick....But ofc we will go for the play ins and end up with a 13thish pick and we will be in the exact same situation next year again.

Or you could “treadmill” and win the lottery.

There becomes a legitimate interesting conversation on the likelihood of becoming a contender.

Tanking requires an x% lottery luck multiples by the odds of a player panning out onto a team that likely has a garbage roster when they join.

Is this team likely to be more successful long term than those treadmill teams with much lower % to win a lottery, but if they do that player joins a much better team from day 1?

This whole system isn’t black and white. You like to think it is, but there’s a reason no lottery winner has won a ring with their player they drafted in this century.

[Clutch0z24]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Yep it could have been another team that got Wemby that is very much true....Heck could of even been the Raptors if we were smarter....

That is why im generally upset with the direction we have been going for many years now....Where i was at is Raptors after getting Barnes should have went in the direction towards the draft and by now we prolly have another great prospect to pair with Barnes because we need more than just Barnes...

I think the Raptors Front office (When Masai was here) were one of the best drafting teams in the NBA....It only made sense to play to our strength and still could be....We need top end talent bad.... Tanking doesn't mean you 100 percent get that player but if you try enough the chances are higher you get a good enough pick in the right draft class to get that player...

2026 Draft is one of them ones that could turn your franchise around if you get the right pick....But ofc we will go for the play ins and end up with a 13thish pick and we will be in the exact same situation next year again.

Or you could “treadmill” and win the lottery.

There becomes a legitimate interesting conversation on the likelihood of becoming a contender.

Tanking requires an x% lottery luck multiples by the odds of a player panning out onto a team that likely has a garbage roster when they join.

Is this team likely to be more successful long term than those treadmill teams with much lower % to win a lottery, but if they do that player joins a much better team from day 1?

This whole system isn’t black and white. You like to think it is, but there’s a reason no lottery winner has won a ring with their player they drafted in this century.

This team and none of the players on this team are leading us to contender or even a playoff team if im being honest....This team and the players on it are just not good enough, Talented yes...Good enough to lead you to the playoff runs no.....

Where are we finding top end talent to help this team go in the direction to actually change the projection? Its not in a trade like you think and that is certain....In fact i think tanking and winning the lottery is easier than trading for a legit superstar in todays NBA....

Its fantasy in your mind that we can become a winning team with the current players on it, And fantasy if you think some magical trade will change anything....You talk about "Luck" right....What is actual blind luck is trying to be the 13th odds or try and make the play ins and win the Lottery that way to get high end talent....Thats just not very likely even if it happened a few times chances are slim on that strategy as well....And its not going to get you anywhere because if you do not move up with them odds you are stuck in the 11th-13th area where finding a really good player is slim in that area of the draft, At least even if we are with top Odds if we don't "Win" the lottery with #1 we have a chance to get 2-3-4-5 where you can still find game changing talents in that area of the draft as well.

I would understand your point if we had a player on this roster that actually has franchise player upside but we don't and Barnes is not it , CMB is not it, Ingram is not it...No matter how much growth they have it will not happen.

[ConSarnit]

Devils advocate here:

Couldn't it be easily argued the Raptors were there too? Freddy left. Could have traded BOTH Pascal and og for picks since we were getting rid of both anyways, instead of just pascal for picks and OG for quickley and rj? Not to mention trying to replace freddy with dennis that offseason as well

What you described the spurs as being "forced into" you could argue the Raptors were in that position too after freddy left. They just went another direction. That's the sticking point.

Personally i don't mind trying to build through the middle. Some really good teams do that historically like the pacers and heat. We do too. That's fine imo.

My point is what you're trying to say about the spurs pretty easily can be said about the Raptors in the 2023 offseason.

Lets just be honest about it and say the Raptors usually like to build from the middle and some of us are okay with that.

If you want to build from the middle though you BETTER hit on those picks in the mid lottery to late first round, even second round (flynn dick jakobe mogbo koloko etc etc) and you better scout out and target the right players in trades like the pacers did with haliburton and we might not have with quickley.

The execution of the plan might be deserving of some criticism here at this point. It's not the end of the world and its still early. But lets just be honest about how its looking here...

Also Murray didn't just "leave" they traded him for like 4 or 5 picks to Atlanta... Freddy "left". Theres a difference there. The spurs CHOSE to make the change. The Raptors were moreso "forced" into it after freddy left and they wanted to keep him, and they still decided to swim against the way the current was pushing them.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

The Spurs are basically the anti-Raptors. They saw a team that was going nowhere and sold their players off while they still had value (Poeltl, White and Murray). They purposely bottomed out while collecting a surplus of 1sts.

Compare that to the Raptors who were forced to tank through their own ineptness even though they OWED valuable draft capital. They got middling (or no, in FVV’s case) returns for their former core because they held on too long.

Tanking guarantees nothing but the Spurs put themselves in the best position to try and make it a success. Compared to them the Raptors have been managed very poorly.

It’s honestly a joke that we missed the playoffs for 3 straight years and the best we managed to do was draft 13th and 9th in those years. Anyone defending it is just a homer.

How can you say the Spurs got rid of their core while they had value? Look at that 48 win team Derozans first year. They lost virtually all the contributors to that team for very little.

Aldridge, Mills, Belinelli, and Gay all just walked. They traded Bertans for a few games of washed Demare Carroll. Bryn Forbes traded for nothing of value. Derozans return was a future first and Young who allowed them to move up a bit in a later draft. Derrick White is the only one they got good value for of their top 8 contributors. Not to mention they were in that position because they traded Kawhi for an extremely flawed all star rather than blow it up.

TWO would have absolutely hated their asset management right up until the Murray trade.

I’m clearly talking about the Murray/White/Poeltl teams. I don’t know how you can possibly say they didn’t get good/excellent value out of those guys in trades.

The Spurs did a bad job right after the Kawhi trade. But while they moved on from their Derozan era we moved from our Derozan (Siakam) era directly into another Derozan era (Ingram).

The Spurs have done an excellent job of covering their bases by giving themselves multiple bites at the apple in down years. They drafted Harper 2nd this year and Carter Bryant with the Hawks pick. OKC pulled a similar move drafting Chet 2nd with their own pick drafting JDub with the Clippers pick. Smart teams give themselves multiple bites at the apple. We sucked and were giving ourselves fewer bites when we forfeited the 8th overall pick in the Poeltl trade. This is especially egregious considering that drafting is supposed to be our strength.

Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and coming away with only 2 lotto picks (the highest 9th) is just unacceptable. That’s what happens when you half-ass it. Hopefully we have a come to Jesus moment like the Spurs did. It might not work out but it’s better than the mediocrity we’ve suffered post title.

[nikster]

The Spurs are basically the anti-Raptors. They saw a team that was going nowhere and sold their players off while they still had value (Poeltl, White and Murray). They purposely bottomed out while collecting a surplus of 1sts.

Compare that to the Raptors who were forced to tank through their own ineptness even though they OWED valuable draft capital. They got middling (or no, in FVV’s case) returns for their former core because they held on too long.

Tanking guarantees nothing but the Spurs put themselves in the best position to try and make it a success. Compared to them the Raptors have been managed very poorly.

It’s honestly a joke that we missed the playoffs for 3 straight years and the best we managed to do was draft 13th and 9th in those years. Anyone defending it is just a homer.

How can you say the Spurs got rid of their core while they had value? Look at that 48 win team Derozans first year. They lost virtually all the contributors to that team for very little.

Aldridge, Mills, Belinelli, and Gay all just walked. They traded Bertans for a few games of washed Demare Carroll. Bryn Forbes traded for nothing of value. Derozans return was a future first and Young who allowed them to move up a bit in a later draft. Derrick White is the only one they got good value for of their top 8 contributors. Not to mention they were in that position because they traded Kawhi for an extremely flawed all star rather than blow it up.

TWO would have absolutely hated their asset management right up until the Murray trade.

I’m clearly talking about the Murray/White/Poeltl teams. I don’t know how you can possibly say they didn’t get good/excellent value out of those guys in trades.

The Spurs did a bad job right after the Kawhi trade. But while they moved on from their Derozan era we moved from our Derozan (Siakam) era directly into another Derozan era (Ingram).

The Spurs have done an excellent job of covering their bases by giving themselves multiple bites at the apple in down years. They drafted Harper 2nd this year and Carter Bryant with the Hawks pick. OKC pulled a similar move drafting Chet 2nd with their own pick drafting JDub with the Clippers pick. Smart teams give themselves multiple bites at the apple. We sucked and were giving ourselves fewer bites when we forfeited the 8th overall pick in the Poeltl trade. This is especially egregious considering that drafting is supposed to be our strength.

Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and coming away with only 2 lotto picks (the highest 9th) is just unacceptable. That’s what happens when you half-ass it. Hopefully we have a come to Jesus moment like the Spurs did. It might not work out but it’s better than the mediocrity we’ve suffered post title.

It's just weird to ignore the preceding several years. The Spurs had no conceivable path way from which to compete with that team so they finally tanked. The Spurs didn't have a come to Jesus moment, they were essentially forced into it. You think the 21-22 Spurs had any were close to the talent the raptors did?

[Clutch0z24]

How can you say the Spurs got rid of their core while they had value? Look at that 48 win team Derozans first year. They lost virtually all the contributors to that team for very little.

Aldridge, Mills, Belinelli, and Gay all just walked. They traded Bertans for a few games of washed Demare Carroll. Bryn Forbes traded for nothing of value. Derozans return was a future first and Young who allowed them to move up a bit in a later draft. Derrick White is the only one they got good value for of their top 8 contributors. Not to mention they were in that position because they traded Kawhi for an extremely flawed all star rather than blow it up.

TWO would have absolutely hated their asset management right up until the Murray trade.

I’m clearly talking about the Murray/White/Poeltl teams. I don’t know how you can possibly say they didn’t get good/excellent value out of those guys in trades.

The Spurs did a bad job right after the Kawhi trade. But while they moved on from their Derozan era we moved from our Derozan (Siakam) era directly into another Derozan era (Ingram).

The Spurs have done an excellent job of covering their bases by giving themselves multiple bites at the apple in down years. They drafted Harper 2nd this year and Carter Bryant with the Hawks pick. OKC pulled a similar move drafting Chet 2nd with their own pick drafting JDub with the Clippers pick. Smart teams give themselves multiple bites at the apple. We sucked and were giving ourselves fewer bites when we forfeited the 8th overall pick in the Poeltl trade. This is especially egregious considering that drafting is supposed to be our strength.

Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and coming away with only 2 lotto picks (the highest 9th) is just unacceptable. That’s what happens when you half-ass it. Hopefully we have a come to Jesus moment like the Spurs did. It might not work out but it’s better than the mediocrity we’ve suffered post title.

It's just weird to ignore the preceding several years. The Spurs had no conceivable path way from which to compete with that team so they finally tanked. The Spurs didn't have a come to Jesus moment, they were essentially forced into it. You think the 21-22 Spurs had any were close to the talent the raptors did?

Do you honestly in good faith think this team has a conceivable path way to compete and actually be a threat in the playoffs?...Making the play ins or the 8th seed to get demolished by the first seed is not competing either....Im talking about being a legit threat to win....If so i think you will be disappointed.

To Consarnits point we moved off the Siakam era level of mid teams to another mid level era team with Ingram...Your points would be valid if Barnes was a top player or had top player in the league potential but i don't think that is the case here....Spurs at least pivoted while we are staying in the same direction hoping things change.

[ItsDanger]

People warned about the current outcome and here we are: 7/11 territory. They criticize about luck but ignore our latest short "rebuild" phase yielded one top 10 pick: CMB at 9th. No top 5 picks.

[TrustFundBaby]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Yeah, Spurs were genuinely languishing post Kawhi, worse than us even. Their DD/LMA era was more bleak than anything we attempted lol.

Wemby bailed their sorry asses out. Remember point Sochan? Full credit to them for correctly recognizing 2023 was THE year to bottom out and throw games, but before then they were a mess.

[anotherhomer]

People warned about the current outcome and here we are: 7/11 territory. They criticize about luck but ignore our latest short "rebuild" phase yielded one top 10 pick: CMB at 9th. No top 5 picks.

yup, raps are 7/11 next few years.
i don't have a problem with the BI acquisition....it's an excellent acquisition

Issue is IQ contract. Barnes not as egreious as he's still a good player.

The good news is that Raps recognize that, and are focus on winning, and not proving they are worth their contracts.

[Pointgod]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Yeah, Spurs were genuinely languishing post Kawhi, worse than us even. Their DD/LMA era was more bleak than anything we attempted lol.

Wemby bailed their sorry asses out. Remember point Sochan? Full credit to them for correctly recognizing 2023 was THE year to bottom out and throw games, but before then they were a mess.

The Spurs post Kawhi had a 48 wins, 33,33,34 before smartly going all in on the tank and getting 22 wins. Post Kawhi we had 53 wins, 25, 48, 41, 25, 30. You do realize that we’ve been in the same path of mediocrity that they were in the last 3 years right? Except it looks like we’ve chosen to stay on that path for the next couple years with the long term contracts we’ve given. It probably would have been smarter to go into a full rebuild after that 25 win season

[ConSarnit]

How can you say the Spurs got rid of their core while they had value? Look at that 48 win team Derozans first year. They lost virtually all the contributors to that team for very little.

Aldridge, Mills, Belinelli, and Gay all just walked. They traded Bertans for a few games of washed Demare Carroll. Bryn Forbes traded for nothing of value. Derozans return was a future first and Young who allowed them to move up a bit in a later draft. Derrick White is the only one they got good value for of their top 8 contributors. Not to mention they were in that position because they traded Kawhi for an extremely flawed all star rather than blow it up.

TWO would have absolutely hated their asset management right up until the Murray trade.

I’m clearly talking about the Murray/White/Poeltl teams. I don’t know how you can possibly say they didn’t get good/excellent value out of those guys in trades.

The Spurs did a bad job right after the Kawhi trade. But while they moved on from their Derozan era we moved from our Derozan (Siakam) era directly into another Derozan era (Ingram).

The Spurs have done an excellent job of covering their bases by giving themselves multiple bites at the apple in down years. They drafted Harper 2nd this year and Carter Bryant with the Hawks pick. OKC pulled a similar move drafting Chet 2nd with their own pick drafting JDub with the Clippers pick. Smart teams give themselves multiple bites at the apple. We sucked and were giving ourselves fewer bites when we forfeited the 8th overall pick in the Poeltl trade. This is especially egregious considering that drafting is supposed to be our strength.

Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and coming away with only 2 lotto picks (the highest 9th) is just unacceptable. That’s what happens when you half-ass it. Hopefully we have a come to Jesus moment like the Spurs did. It might not work out but it’s better than the mediocrity we’ve suffered post title.

It's just weird to ignore the preceding several years. The Spurs had no conceivable path way from which to compete with that team so they finally tanked. The Spurs didn't have a come to Jesus moment, they were essentially forced into it. You think the 21-22 Spurs had any were close to the talent the raptors did?

How were they forced into trading Murray or White? They literally traded Murray with 2 years left on his deal immediately after the season he made the all-star game. They traded White before his extension even kicked in.

The Spurs finished the ‘21/22 season 34-48 with a roster of 1 all-star, a few good role players (White, Vassell, Poeltl) and the 9th pick. Does any of that remind you of the current Raptors? The Spurs were proactive and tore that team down. If we were the ‘21/22 Spurs we would have traded for Brandon Ingram to try and win 42 games in ‘22/23.

[Pointgod]

I’m clearly talking about the Murray/White/Poeltl teams. I don’t know how you can possibly say they didn’t get good/excellent value out of those guys in trades.

The Spurs did a bad job right after the Kawhi trade. But while they moved on from their Derozan era we moved from our Derozan (Siakam) era directly into another Derozan era (Ingram).

The Spurs have done an excellent job of covering their bases by giving themselves multiple bites at the apple in down years. They drafted Harper 2nd this year and Carter Bryant with the Hawks pick. OKC pulled a similar move drafting Chet 2nd with their own pick drafting JDub with the Clippers pick. Smart teams give themselves multiple bites at the apple. We sucked and were giving ourselves fewer bites when we forfeited the 8th overall pick in the Poeltl trade. This is especially egregious considering that drafting is supposed to be our strength.

Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and coming away with only 2 lotto picks (the highest 9th) is just unacceptable. That’s what happens when you half-ass it. Hopefully we have a come to Jesus moment like the Spurs did. It might not work out but it’s better than the mediocrity we’ve suffered post title.

It's just weird to ignore the preceding several years. The Spurs had no conceivable path way from which to compete with that team so they finally tanked. The Spurs didn't have a come to Jesus moment, they were essentially forced into it. You think the 21-22 Spurs had any were close to the talent the raptors did?

Do you honestly in good faith think this team has a conceivable path way to compete and actually be a threat in the playoffs?...Making the play ins or the 8th seed to get demolished by the first seed is not competing either....Im talking about being a legit threat to win....If so i think you will be disappointed.

To Consarnits point we moved off the Siakam era level of mid teams to another mid level era team with Ingram...Your points would be valid if Barnes was a top player or had top player in the league potential but i don't think that is the case here....Spurs at least pivoted while we are staying in the same direction hoping things change.

Here’s the thing. These guys will point to the Pacers and Heat as teams that didn’t need to tank, not acknowledging that Miami is a free agent destination with one of the best coaches in the league and the Pacers traded away starters for picks and traded for Siakam as their final piece after they’d gone through their rebuild and they were already competitive. It’s just deflection.

[I_Like_Dirt]

So I keep seeing that the Spurs are just lucky and they could have ended up with Scoot or Miller, etc, etc.

It’s not so much that the Spurs are geniuses for tanking and winning the lotto. They made their own luck, but it could have been bad luck. That’s all fine.

But that doesn’t mean Wemby just goes away. If Wemby is on Charlotte, Portland, Washington, Houston, etc, chances are they get another one or two interesting young players over the next two drafts and we’re talking about that team as the success story instead.

I think the Spurs might be getting a bit too much credit here, but the general idea of tanking (particularly if done by competent management) is not getting enough.

Wemby doesn't go Sat but neither do all those other bad teams. And then you have drafts like this last one where middling teams get the top picks with the new odds. A lot of good teams out there traded picks for established players - e.g. the Knicks and Wolves - and you have the Thunder that robbed the Clippers for Podcast P.

The Raps are on the right path here. They will need some luck with a kid or two far exceeding their draft position but that's basically every contender. Scottie and CMB both look fantastic and Ingram, RJ and Poeltl (back permitting) are all solid fits so far. Lots of ways to go from there and there is a lot of season ahead.

[DreamTeam09]

It's just weird to ignore the preceding several years. The Spurs had no conceivable path way from which to compete with that team so they finally tanked. The Spurs didn't have a come to Jesus moment, they were essentially forced into it. You think the 21-22 Spurs had any were close to the talent the raptors did?

Do you honestly in good faith think this team has a conceivable path way to compete and actually be a threat in the playoffs?...Making the play ins or the 8th seed to get demolished by the first seed is not competing either....Im talking about being a legit threat to win....If so i think you will be disappointed.

To Consarnits point we moved off the Siakam era level of mid teams to another mid level era team with Ingram...Your points would be valid if Barnes was a top player or had top player in the league potential but i don't think that is the case here....Spurs at least pivoted while we are staying in the same direction hoping things change.

Here’s the thing. These guys will point to the Pacers and Heat as teams that didn’t need to tank, not acknowledging that Miami is a free agent destination with one of the best coaches in the league and the Pacers traded away starters for picks and traded for Siakam as their final piece after they’d gone through their rebuild and they were already competitive. It’s just deflection.

Is there a FA that Miami has secured over the years? We traded our starters for younger starters and kept our pick, Indy run lasted a yr and they couldn't keep up with their financial commitments. It's not a given that core would've returned, even with a healthy Hali.

IQ and prospect + picks gets us a disgruntled star in the near future is a guess
Jakob + picks may get us a different 5

[CPT]

Do you honestly in good faith think this team has a conceivable path way to compete and actually be a threat in the playoffs?...Making the play ins or the 8th seed to get demolished by the first seed is not competing either....Im talking about being a legit threat to win....If so i think you will be disappointed.

To Consarnits point we moved off the Siakam era level of mid teams to another mid level era team with Ingram...Your points would be valid if Barnes was a top player or had top player in the league potential but i don't think that is the case here....Spurs at least pivoted while we are staying in the same direction hoping things change.

Here’s the thing. These guys will point to the Pacers and Heat as teams that didn’t need to tank, not acknowledging that Miami is a free agent destination with one of the best coaches in the league and the Pacers traded away starters for picks and traded for Siakam as their final piece after they’d gone through their rebuild and they were already competitive. It’s just deflection.

Is there a FA that Miami has secured over the years? We traded our starters for younger starters and kept our pick, Indy run lasted a yr and they couldn't keep up with their financial commitments. It's not a given that core would've returned, even with a healthy Hali.

IQ and prospect + picks gets us a disgruntled star in the near future is a guess
Jakob + picks may get us a different 5

Bron? Bosh? Butler? Was that a serious question, or are we setting some time limit in order to pretend they aren't a FA destination?*

The other thing about Indiana and Miami as examples of "building from the middle"...

Miami - Spoelstra
Indiana - Carlisle
Toronto - Darko

*I would accept the idea that no relevant player will ever be a free agent again, but that's a different discussion. Even then, we will see players push for Miami in free tradgency