Is Wembanyamas impact now similar to Wilt?

[Doctor MJ]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

Clicking back in this thread, it seems like this is directed at me.

As I’ve said already, I’m not ignoring Russell’s teammates. Take it as a given I’ve already adjusted for anything like that when I say Russell was more impactful.

I can be wrong of course, but people keep seeming to assume “he must not be factoring in teammates” for no reason that I can see other than an assumption that Wilt was better than Russell and so anyone saying otherwise must have forgotten something basic, and I can’t tell you how hard I’d reject that assumption.


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[Doctor MJ]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

The real question is why isn't that obvious to everyone? sad, really....

So let me emphasize that I didn’t call Wilt a loser, which I’m realizing might be dominating your response here. Maybe infinite is referring to someone else, it looks like he jumped in after my post giving what was essentially an attempted rebuttal to my post when talking about the team sport stuff.

To your “why isn’t that obvious?” Which makes sense in the e team sport context:

Assume what you see as obvious is obvious to me as well and consider how a reasonable person with enough knowledge to know who your namesake was might conclude Russell was better than Wilt. If this is hard for you, feel free to ask me questions directly.


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[Doctor MJ]

Not that they necessarily play the game the same way, but both have such physical advantages over their competition that you'd almost want to change the games rules just for them. Wilt, being a 7'1" super-athlete in the early 1960s, and Wembanyama, at 7'5" in today's league and having guard like skills, are both massive physical outliers compared to their competition.

I think Wilt is as far back as we have to go for a proper comparison to Wemby.

So I can't not note that Wilt's impact wasn't the best of his own era, Russell's was.

To your question, that means it's really not that hard for Wemby to top Wilt's impact - it's not some impossible thing we've never seen before or since - and so long as Wemby stays healthy, it's probably more a question of when Wemby tops Wilt's impact rather if.

And the answer to When? may be "Now", but I'll let the season play out longer before making that assertion.

Per engelmann via early xrapm, Wemby impact isnt the biggest in the NBA either

Hmm.

I made no statement indicating Wemby’s impact was already topping Wilts impact.

I made no statement indicating I use xrapm.

I made no statement indicating I thought it made sense to rely on plus minus regressions with a tiny sample.

So feel free to use the tools that make sense to you as you see fit, but what you point out doesn’t really fit in to how I’m thinking about things.


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[infinite11285]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

Clicking back in this thread, it seems like this is directed at me.

As I’ve said already, I’m not ignoring Russell’s teammates. Take it as a given I’ve already adjusted for anything like that when I say Russell was more impactful.

I can be wrong of course, but people keep seeming to assume “he must not be factoring in teammates” for no reason that I can see other than an assumption that Wilt was better than Russell and so anyone saying otherwise must have forgotten something basic, and I can’t tell you how hard I’d reject that assumption.


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My earlier post was actually a response to UcanUwill’s comment about people thinking Wilt was a “loser,” but it wasn’t directed at him (or at you).

A lot of people thought WIlt was a loser, which he often was. When Victor was 17, I said he was ''modern Bill Russell''.

I was really speaking more broadly about that long-standing narrative around Wilt — how he’s often labeled a loser simply because he came up short against Russell’s stacked teams.

I definitely wasn’t trying to challenge your take. I respect the work you put into adjusting for teammates and overall impact. I just wanted to push back a bit on the public perception that tends to underrate Wilt’s career.

[Doctor MJ]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

Clicking back in this thread, it seems like this is directed at me.

As I’ve said already, I’m not ignoring Russell’s teammates. Take it as a given I’ve already adjusted for anything like that when I say Russell was more impactful.

I can be wrong of course, but people keep seeming to assume “he must not be factoring in teammates” for no reason that I can see other than an assumption that Wilt was better than Russell and so anyone saying otherwise must have forgotten something basic, and I can’t tell you how hard I’d reject that assumption.


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My earlier post was actually a response to UcanUwill’s comment about people thinking Wilt was a “loser,” but it wasn’t directed at him (or at you).

A lot of people thought WIlt was a loser, which he often was. When Victor was 17, I said he was ''modern Bill Russell''.

I was really speaking more broadly about that long-standing narrative around Wilt — how he’s often labeled a loser simply because he came up short against Russell’s stacked teams.

I definitely wasn’t trying to challenge your take. I respect the work you put into adjusting for teammates and overall impact. I just wanted to push back a bit on the public perception that tends to underrate Wilt’s career.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. My apologies for my paranoia.

[johannking]

Wemby is the modern version of Ralph Sampson.

Had Sampson stayed healthy he is who we'd be comparing Wemby to not Wilt.

Just googled Ralph Sapson's stats... idk man

Here you go young sir, in the first min and change of this video you'll see him dribble with an around the back finish into a jumper. As well as some other things but keep in mind this is the time period where a coach would yell at tall guys for doing what he did and to pass the ball to the guard and get in the post but you'll see him still pulling up J after J in the midrange.

Even had a hook shot and casually blocking Kareem Skyhook which was unheard of lol but don't take my word for it you can see for yourself. It's an interesting vid and Google Houston Rockets '84 full games to actually see him play in real time thus me comparing Wemby to him. Enjoy!

Watch on YouTube

Appreciate the effort mate. No doubt Ralph is a force and one of the first skyscrapers with a shot diet and skillset like his. Bringing the discussion back to impact, I think at some point we will have to look into the stats and agree while Ralph is the prototype, their impact is not similar.

(p.s. Kareem's skyhooks have definitely been blocked before. Wilt definitely blocked a skyhook before if you look into the archives not sure if the youtube channel is still up. Both incredible displays of length and athleticism regardless)

[ItsDanger]

2 pts at halftime? Just stop.

[jokeboy86]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

The real question is why isn't that obvious to everyone? sad, really....

I think the issue with Wilt though is you have older sportswriters like Bob Ryan and others who are still around who watched Wilt play, note that Wilt a lot of the time wasn't the best team player or didn't necessarily do what would be best for those 60s teams to win more titles compared to Russell. They feel that Russell actually sacrificed for the team and probably could've put up more offensive numbers if he wanted to. Wilt himself was on record as saying that Russell was a more complete player than him.

[Statlanta]

I strongly reject the claim that Wilt was a loser simply because he often lost to the guy with the better team.

Swap their rosters, and the results flip. Everyone loves to call basketball a “team sport,” but that truth conveniently disappears when it’s time to give credit—or assign blame.

The real question is why isn't that obvious to everyone? sad, really....

Why didn't he dominate the league past 1967 when he did have better rosters than russell

[Statlanta]

that's why there's a myth of Sampson being an all-time great talent ruined by the injuries

he was nowhere near level of the all-time greats even in similar moments of their careers

Oh no?

At the age of 23 (start of a season, age of Sampson as a rookie) only 6 players in NBA history averaged 20+ pts/g, 11+ reb/g, and 2+ bs/g in that season - McAdoo, Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Anthony Davis, and Ralph Sampson.

That should put into perspective what he did as a rookie.

After that 1983-84 rookie season of his everyone was thinking (out loud) what an incredible career this kid was going to have.

His second season he scored even better, 22 pts/g, played 82 games and 3000+ minutes, with his rebounding and shot blocking a bit worse than his rookie season playing next to Olajuwon.

And while his stats in 1985-86 were worse still, the fact is that at that time from the ages of 23-25 he was just 1 of 2 players in league history in that age range to amass 5000+ pts, 2500+ rebs, and 400+ blocks, the other being McAdoo. Even today only 4 players did this ages 23-25 - McAdoo, Sampson, Olajuwon, and Duncan. Then Houston beat the Lakers in the WCFs 4-1 and lost in the Finals to Boston 4-2.

Everyone in 1986 was talking about this Rockets team as the team of the future, just like people were talking about Shaq and Penny being the future after they lost in the Finals to the Bulls in 1995.

while he was definitely a great player, he just wasn't on the level of other all-time great big men

That clearly is not what people were saying after his first two seasons in the league.

In this sense, he's very overrated.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

His first season in the league he was a unanimous ROY. His second season in the league he was the all-star game MVP and in the regular season was the leading scorer on the Rockets. Then in 1985-86 Houston (W-L 51-31) upsets the Lakers (W-L 62-20) in the WCFs 4-1 and took Boston (W-L 67-15, best in the league) to 6 games before losing the Finals.

At that time the consensus was the sky was the limit for the Rockets, with both Olajuwon and Sampson being the new projected faces of the league (Jordan had played just one season by this time).

Here's the stats for Sampson and Wembanyama after their first two seasons in the league:

Sampson - 35 min/g, 21.5 pts/g, 10.8 reb/g, 2.2 bs/g
Wemby - 31 min/g, 22.5 pts/g, 10.8 reb/g, 3.7 bs/g

Wemby's stats are better but Sampson's were very good.

2025-26 is Wemby's 3rd season. If he gets injured in his 4th season and has his career derailed like Sampson I can just imagine what you'll be saying 40 years from know, just like what you are saying about Sampson now - very overrated.

Sampson was more of a paper tiger. Wemby is the Real Deal.

Yep - another after-the-fact expert.

Sampson was an incredible prospect and was definitely going to do big things in the NBA, had health not gotten in the way.

This is in fact the truth.

I don't think Sampson was on the same level of Wemby, physicall or skill-wise. Wemby looks even bigger that Sampson now and has way longer arms.. He's faster, more fluid, lighter on his feet, quicker.

This is exactly the things people were saying about Sampson in the 80s. The NBA had never seen a 7-4 player (or whatever his true height was) that was as fast, as fluid, as light on his feet as Sampson, and that could dribble the ball and make moves off the dribble.

You mean the Magic lost to the Rockets the very same team of the future that did not have Sampson in its future

[Handlez]

Lmfao

[WillyJakkz]

2 pts at halftime? Just stop.

Thread curse

[dhsilv2]

Not that they necessarily play the game the same way, but both have such physical advantages over their competition that you'd almost want to change the games rules just for them. Wilt, being a 7'1" super-athlete in the early 1960s, and Wembanyama, at 7'5" in today's league and having guard like skills, are both massive physical outliers compared to their competition.

I think Wilt is as far back as we have to go for a proper comparison to Wemby.

So I can't not note that Wilt's impact wasn't the best of his own era, Russell's was.

To your question, that means it's really not that hard for Wemby to top Wilt's impact - it's not some impossible thing we've never seen before or since - and so long as Wemby stays healthy, it's probably more a question of when Wemby tops Wilt's impact rather if.

And the answer to When? may be "Now", but I'll let the season play out longer before making that assertion.

I'm viewing things from the standpoint of individual impact. As good as Russell was, he was on some damn good teams. Wemby likewise, even if he wins the MVP and DPOY this year, is not winning a ring as his team is just not up to the level right now.

We've certainly seen physical outliers in this league's history but I think Wemby and Wilt are on their own tiers, at least with respect to the leagues they played in. I have to imagine a Wilt playing in 1960 was at least as much as an alien as Wemby in the 2025 NBA.

Footage is limited but I don't see and some of this is rule driven. A huge gap in Wilt's ability to use his physicality and Russell. I think Shaq stood out more and again...might just be a rule thing. But Shaq was more physically imposing and outlier. Same to me Lebron. I think both are clearly more of outliers than Wilt.

[dhsilv2]

Unless someone in here is 80 years and older you can't possibly know the answer to this.
Someone who has actually watched Wilt play live can answer.
I have him as the GOAT big only by watching film.
That's not a way to know about his impact though.

Do you hold the same standard to discussing Michael Jordan? It's been almost 30 years since he has last played as a Bull and there has been an entire generation of NBA fans now who were not old enough to ever see him play live.

As someone who watched MJ live, there just isn’t that much full game footage of peak Wilt available. You easily find as many MJ games as you want

The problem is if you were alive for Wilt it isn't like they had access to a lot of live games on tv either. So you saw him in person. But then you'd have a bias from likely being a local fan or ONLY seeing him go against your local team. Just was tough before the league was fully covered. It isn't Babe Ruth tough where there's just virtual no footage. But still.

[KGtabake]

Do you hold the same standard to discussing Michael Jordan? It's been almost 30 years since he has last played as a Bull and there has been an entire generation of NBA fans now who were not old enough to ever see him play live.

As someone who watched MJ live, there just isn’t that much full game footage of peak Wilt available. You easily find as many MJ games as you want

The problem is if you were alive for Wilt it isn't like they had access to a lot of live games on tv either. So you saw him in person. But then you'd have a bias from likely being a local fan or ONLY seeing him go against your local team. Just was tough before the league was fully covered. It isn't Babe Ruth tough where there's just virtual no footage. But still.

It's like trying to discuss Pele and Maradona in soccer.
Pele was in the '60s, Maradona in the '80s.
Much more videos and games of Maradona can be found on the internet.
Plus if you're close to 45(I'm 44) , you certainly have watched games as a kid and you do remember.
No way you'll find many that were watching Pele on television though.

[dhsilv2]

As someone who watched MJ live, there just isn’t that much full game footage of peak Wilt available. You easily find as many MJ games as you want

The problem is if you were alive for Wilt it isn't like they had access to a lot of live games on tv either. So you saw him in person. But then you'd have a bias from likely being a local fan or ONLY seeing him go against your local team. Just was tough before the league was fully covered. It isn't Babe Ruth tough where there's just virtual no footage. But still.

It's like trying to discuss Pele and Maradona in soccer.
Pele was in the '60s, Maradona in the '80s.
Much more videos and games of Maradona can be found on the internet.
Plus if you're close to 45(I'm 44) , you certainly have watched games as a kid and you do remember.
No way you'll find many that were watching Pele on television though.

I don't know who those guys are. But yeah, I'm in the ball park of your age and I remember say jordan playing live. I don't base anything I think about him on that viewing. Or at least I try not to. We have posters who saw Wilt live on here. Which is cool and really is nice to get their opinions. But I'm not going to take the knowledge they had of the game at that time and expect their live reactions are the same as it would be if you saw it live with a better understanding, that modern analysis has given us all.

That isn't to say Wilt wasn't a physical monster. But so was Russell and the rules/mindset didn't really let Wilt abuse his supposed freaky strength. So I struggle with as a player how Wilt would be see as more a freak outlier than some others. Now if Wilt was as strong as claimed, and he was allowed to maul people like Shaq. Now we'd have something. But even in limited footage and eye witness accounts...including by Wilt. He wasn't able to abuse his strength and mass. And I don't think it's wrong of either of us to take that as reasonably true without having seen him live.

[Kiss of Death]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=Czvoq_OfH0ZSMgHqWBWrFA

[KGtabake]

The problem is if you were alive for Wilt it isn't like they had access to a lot of live games on tv either. So you saw him in person. But then you'd have a bias from likely being a local fan or ONLY seeing him go against your local team. Just was tough before the league was fully covered. It isn't Babe Ruth tough where there's just virtual no footage. But still.

It's like trying to discuss Pele and Maradona in soccer.
Pele was in the '60s, Maradona in the '80s.
Much more videos and games of Maradona can be found on the internet.
Plus if you're close to 45(I'm 44) , you certainly have watched games as a kid and you do remember.
No way you'll find many that were watching Pele on television though.

I don't know who those guys are. But yeah, I'm in the ball park of your age and I remember say jordan playing live. I don't base anything I think about him on that viewing. Or at least I try not to. We have posters who saw Wilt live on here. Which is cool and really is nice to get their opinions. But I'm not going to take the knowledge they had of the game at that time and expect their live reactions are the same as it would be if you saw it live with a better understanding, that modern analysis has given us all.

That isn't to say Wilt wasn't a physical monster. But so was Russell and the rules/mindset didn't really let Wilt abuse his supposed freaky strength. So I struggle with as a player how Wilt would be see as more a freak outlier than some others. Now if Wilt was as strong as claimed, and he was allowed to maul people like Shaq. Now we'd have something. But even in limited footage and eye witness accounts...including by Wilt. He wasn't able to abuse his strength and mass. And I don't think it's wrong of either of us to take that as reasonably true without having seen him live.

Μy opinion on all things Wilt did and didn't do, has always been the same.
He's always judged by his winning.
There's always a big "if".
There's noone who can convince me that if he played on that era's Celtics instead of Bill, the Celtics wouldn't come up with the same number of championships.
That was a generational team.
I'm not taking anything away from Bill.
He's who he is in the all time lists, his resume speaks for itself.
But if Wilt was playing in his place, i doubt if people would appoint MJ as the GOAT so easily.
Because the rings culture is the strongest in the end of the day.
I guess the only way to measure Wilt's impact on the game is to point out that he lead the way for physical freaks like Shaq or Giannis or Wemby.
All these guys have been compared to Wilt when we're talking about physical dominance.
I just find it a bit unfair to say that Shaq was only the most dominant player of his era.
No. He was the best. Not only the most dominant.
I hear it a lot about Giannis the past few years. "The most dominant".
We'll be hearing about this with Wemby too.
I just think that this definition, is been made by people who don't want to admit that these guys are the best players period.
So they go with the "most dominant" nonsense and leave it there.
Wemby will be the best player in the world soon.
Not only the most "dominant".

[Lakers In 5]

2 pts at halftime? Just stop.

Thread curse

Young player curse, it’s normal. Guess what? It’s going to happen again later this year. It’s not his fault people on the internet have this weird obsession with being first. The reality is no player ever became the #1 in the league in October or November.

[jcsunsfan]

Mark Williams standing reach is 9-9. Wembys is 9-7. And Williams is more physical. Wemby has a remarkable skill set but he is not used to going up against players that are longer than he is.

Suns might wins some games this year. They are beginning to get their chemistry together. As a Suns fan, I am enjoying this team.