Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[C Court]

The goal posts have been shifting for two years. This started as a simple 'Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out' trade thread. Then he made the first goal post shift and turned it into a Varsho/Moreno/Kirk thread, even though Kirk was never part of the trade.

I actually like Varsho at times. But gaslighting us that Varsho is an MVP calibre player is ridiculous. Then gloating every time Varsho does anything good just makes most of us want to avoid this board. When I suggested this trade could be viewed as a win for both teams, he wasn't having it. So the nonsense continues.

[GameChannel]

The goal posts have been shifting for two years. This started as a simple 'Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out' trade thread. Then he made the first goal post shift and turned it into a Varsho/Moreno/Kirk thread, even though Kirk was never part of the trade.

I actually like Varsho at times. But gaslighting us that Varsho is an MVP calibre player is ridiculous. Then gloating every time Varsho does anything good just makes most of us want to avoid this board. When I suggested this trade could be viewed as a win for both teams, he wasn't having it. So the nonsense continues.

I have NEVER advocated for Moreno vs Varsho. I couldn’t care less about who won that trade. All I know is that midget **** lost is the WS with his terrible hitting. In short, **** Doulton Varsho.

[Randle McMurphy]

The goal posts have been shifting for two years. This started as a simple 'Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out' trade thread. Then he made the first goal post shift and turned it into a Varsho/Moreno/Kirk thread, even though Kirk was never part of the trade.

I actually like Varsho at times. But gaslighting us that Varsho is an MVP calibre player is ridiculous. Then gloating every time Varsho does anything good just makes most of us want to avoid this board. When I suggested this trade could be viewed as a win for both teams, he wasn't having it. So the nonsense continues.

The Jays literally chose Kirk over Moreno as their long-term C in making the trade; they had the option to move either one of them and traded Moreno instead. Protest as much as you want to, but Kirk and his enormous success are a part of the trade evaluation as much as any player actually in it. That's been the case from day 1 of the trade (and day 1 of the thread). There was no "goal post shift" in that respect.

And yeah, what a terrible thing to celebrate the success of one of the team's best and most valuable players who just contributed massively to the Jays' best season in 32 years. Better to just denigrate him senselessly and irrationally for years on end like the Varsho haters in this thread.

Oh, the nonsense continues all right...from those who remain unwilling to admit that the Jays' FO actually made the right move here.

[Randle McMurphy]

I have NEVER advocated for Moreno vs Varsho. I couldn’t care less about who won that trade. All I know is that midget **** lost is the WS with his terrible hitting. In short, **** Doulton Varsho.

Varsho appreciation is a no no, but posts like these are good for the board per C Court.

Make it make sense.

[Randle McMurphy]

Love the deal. Not sure the Jays will win out on pure value a decade down the road, but I also don't particularly care about that (nor should they given the situation they're in). They had a surplus of quality major league catchers and going into the 2023 season with all three of them would have been a major waste of resources for a team that needs to contend and win. In making this trade, they've also made the choice to go with Kirk long-term at the position over Moreno (and after the year Kirk had, it's hard not to be a believer in him as one of the best Cs in baseball for the foreseeable future).

Of course, I suspect they would have wanted to trade Jansen the most, but likely found that he wasn't garnering the interest or the impact player needed to move a player of Jansen's quality (he's arguably a top 5 catcher in the game right now himself). Instead, they've moved Moreno (a worse player than either Kirk or Jansen at the moment) for a guy who is one of the best outfield defenders in baseball under control for cheap during our core's window (Vlad/Bo/Kirk/Springer/Manoah/Gausman). Varsho will significantly improve this team over the next few years even if he never takes a further leap with the bat. Outside of shortstop, the Jays will have an elite defensive team at virtually every position next season. A far cry from the absolute clown show they've thrown out there over the past few years.

It's interesting that it feels like the Jays have made it a goal to change this team's identity and culture heading into 2023 with the move outs of Lourdes and Teo. Sure, they won 90 games last year but there have been times (especially during the Montoyo era) where this didn't feel like a serious baseball team. That may be changing now.

This post (made the day of the trade) looks even better with each passing season.

[Cyrus]

Dodgers about to strip Yamo of the MVP and give it to MVP Varsho for his mvp performance for the Dodgers!

[Randle McMurphy]

Dodgers about to strip Yamo of the MVP and give it to MVP Varsho for his mvp performance for the Dodgers!

Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning of game 7 if Varsho doesn't save the season then and there with a ridiculous catch on one of the hardest hit balls of the series. At least if he missed it we would have been saved from witnessing a historic Hoffman choke.

[JaysRule25]

Dodgers about to strip Yamo of the MVP and give it to MVP Varsho for his mvp performance for the Dodgers!

Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning of game 7 if Varsho doesn't save the season then and there with a ridiculous catch on one of the hardest hit balls of the series. At least if he missed it we would have been saved from witnessing a historic Hoffman choke.

To be fair though, he also gave back a run on defense due to his arm. The run that Bassitt gave up on that shallow sac fly.

I hope his arm is decent next season.

[Randle McMurphy]

Dodgers about to strip Yamo of the MVP and give it to MVP Varsho for his mvp performance for the Dodgers!

Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning of game 7 if Varsho doesn't save the season then and there with a ridiculous catch on one of the hardest hit balls of the series. At least if he missed it we would have been saved from witnessing a historic Hoffman choke.

To be fair though, he also gave back a run on defense due to his arm. The run that Bassitt gave up on that shallow sac fly.

I hope his arm is decent next season.

His catch saved the entire game in the moment; it was bases loaded with one out and Scherzer was getting absolutely destroyed in that inning with no sign of anybody even warming in the bullpen. A Teoscar double there clears the bases and the Dodgers likely take a 4-3 lead in that inning if not for the catch.

That sac fly run was also scoring on any of our outfielders except maybe Barger (who has probably the strongest arm of any outfielder in baseball). And Varsho did have rotator cuff surgery a year ago and his velocity did improve significantly over the course of the season. Maybe it'll never be back to the way it was, but we'll see next year.

[Cyrus]

The baseball gods didn't even want Varsho to get the glory of being the one who won the game. Had IKF ran through, had bigger lead of 3rd (Though was apparently told stay close to bag by managers), varsho weak grounder to 2nd, would have been winning the winning run, and his fielder choice would have driven the run. And thats just game 7, not even speaking on th bases loaded and other runner in scoring position in game 6. Instead he'll be known as Dodgers MVP!

I understand why Jays didn't want to put varsho as #9, generally bottom of the order guys you hope to setup the top of the order with hits...so he's kind of stuck at #7 or #8 i suppose.

[Randle McMurphy]

The baseball gods didn't even want Varsho to get the glory of being the one who won the game. Had IKF ran through, had bigger lead of 3rd (Though was apparently told stay close to bag by managers), varsho weak grounder to 2nd, would have been winning the winning run, and his fielder choice would have driven the run. And thats just game 7, not even speaking on th bases loaded and other runner in scoring position in game 6. Instead he'll be known as Dodgers MVP!

I understand why Jays didn't want to put varsho as #9, generally bottom of the order guys you hope to setup the top of the order with hits...so he's kind of stuck at #7 or #8 i suppose.

There's probably an alternate universe somewhere where IKF crossed the plate in time and the haters are now praising Varsho in this thread for making the contact that won a championship.

[C Court]

Talk about lacking self awareness. Maybe it’s not Varsho, but you.

[Randle McMurphy]

Talk about lacking self awareness. Maybe it’s not Varsho, but you.

No please, we need to hear more about shifting goal posts by referencing Kirk when I primarily referenced Kirk in my first post on the trade the day it was made lol

[Mehar]

Talk about lacking self awareness. Maybe it’s not Varsho, but you.

No please, we need to hear more about shifting goal posts by referencing Kirk when I primarily referenced Kirk in my first post on the trade the day it was made lol

So if you want to reference Kirk, the Arizona Diamondbacks should be referencing Corbin Carroll also in this Varsho for Gurriel/Moreno trade. Arizona had excess outfielders and it was reported at that time they wanted to trade one of them. They were also fielding offers for Carroll, but decided Varsho was the better trade bait. I guess they chose wisely also by keeping Carroll and trading the atrocious bat of Varsho.

[Randle McMurphy]

False analogy. There are 3 outfielder spots and 1 catcher spot. DBacks did not have to trade any of their outfielders and did not "choose" Carroll over Varsho. In contrast, the Jays had to trade one of their catchers to settle on a long-term option for the position going into 2023 and chose Kirk over Moreno in doing so.

But you know this already.

[Mehar]

False analogy. There are 3 outfielder spots and 1 catcher spot. DBacks did not have to trade any of their outfielders and did not "choose" Carroll over Varsho. In contrast, the Jays had to trade one of their catchers to settle on a long-term option for the position going into 2023 and chose Kirk over Moreno in doing so.

But you know this already.

It is a false analogy because it destroys your narrative. Look back at the interview the Diamondbacks GM did in March, 2023. I remember watching a clip of that. Forgot who the writer was. He said they had a surplus of Outfielders which was a strength. Teams were calling about their Outfielders. They wanted to deal one of them to acquire a high potential Catcher. The Diamondbacks main priority according to him was to "upgrade their Catching position by dealing one of their Outfielders".

They loved Moreno and Toronto needed an Outfielder. It came down to analyzing which Outfielders they wanted to keep, and made the determination that Corbin Carroll was who they wanted to keep long-term in the fold over your Man Crush Varsho. Not my words. They gave Carroll an 8 year extension for 111 million in March, 2023. The words directly from the mouth of Arizona GM. But I guess you know better living in your delusions and fantasy world.

[C Court]

Talk about lacking self awareness. Maybe it’s not Varsho, but you.

No please, we need to hear more about shifting goal posts by referencing Kirk when I primarily referenced Kirk in my first post on the trade the day it was made lol

Why don't you talk about you shifting the goal posts on the Moreno + Gurriel for Varsho trade? It was a two for one deal, but just not in your mind.

Arizona received two quality players for Varsho, but you decided that Gurriel could not be counted as an asset in evaluating the trade because he became a free agent at the end of season - even though he re-signed with Arizona.

If we follow your convoluted logic, then we shouldn't count Joe Carter's full tenure as a Blue Jay as a success (and the trade that brought him here) because Joe Carter re-signed as a FREE AGENT with Toronto in 1992. LIke you said with Gurriel Jr- anyone could have signed Joe as a free agent before he "touched 'em all". So Pat Gillick's great trade didn't count in 1993!

[C Court]

False analogy. There are 3 outfielder spots and 1 catcher spot. DBacks did not have to trade any of their outfielders and did not "choose" Carroll over Varsho. In contrast, the Jays had to trade one of their catchers to settle on a long-term option for the position going into 2023 and chose Kirk over Moreno in doing so.

But you know this already.

It is a false analogy because it destroys your narrative. Look back at the interview the Diamondbacks GM did in March, 2023. I remember watching a clip of that. Forgot who the writer was. He said they had a surplus of Outfielders which was a strength. Teams were calling about their Outfielders. They wanted to deal one of them to acquire a high potential Catcher. The Diamondbacks main priority according to him was to "upgrade their Catching position by dealing one of their Outfielders".

They loved Moreno and Toronto needed an Outfielder. It came down to analyzing which Outfielders they wanted to keep, and made the determination that Corbin Carroll was who they wanted to keep long-term in the fold over your Man Crush Varsho. Not my words. They gave Carroll an 8 year extension for 111 million in March, 2023. The words directly from the mouth of Arizona GM. But I guess you know better living in your delusions and fantasy world.

You nailed it. We are supposed to count Kirk as a win in this trade for the Blue Jays, but we can't count Corbin Carroll and Gurriel Jr. as wins for the Diamondbacks because Randle said so.

[GameChannel]

Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning of game 7 if Varsho doesn't save the season then and there with a ridiculous catch on one of the hardest hit balls of the series. At least if he missed it we would have been saved from witnessing a historic Hoffman choke.

To be fair though, he also gave back a run on defense due to his arm. The run that Bassitt gave up on that shallow sac fly.

I hope his arm is decent next season.

His catch saved the entire game in the moment; it was bases loaded with one out and Scherzer was getting absolutely destroyed in that inning with no sign of anybody even warming in the bullpen. A Teoscar double there clears the bases and the Dodgers likely take a 4-3 lead in that inning if not for the catch.

That sac fly run was also scoring on any of our outfielders except maybe Barger (who has probably the strongest arm of any outfielder in baseball). And Varsho did have rotator cuff surgery a year ago and his velocity did improve significantly over the course of the season. Maybe it'll never be back to the way it was, but we'll see next year.

We wouldn’t have needed to go 7 games had the bug-eyed biyatch made decent contact with the **** ball in game 6. But yeah you conveniently leave that out cuz it doesn’t suit your narrative. Keep digging the hole deeper bud.

[Mehar]

False analogy. There are 3 outfielder spots and 1 catcher spot. DBacks did not have to trade any of their outfielders and did not "choose" Carroll over Varsho. In contrast, the Jays had to trade one of their catchers to settle on a long-term option for the position going into 2023 and chose Kirk over Moreno in doing so.

But you know this already.

It is a false analogy because it destroys your narrative. Look back at the interview the Diamondbacks GM did in March, 2023. I remember watching a clip of that. Forgot who the writer was. He said they had a surplus of Outfielders which was a strength. Teams were calling about their Outfielders. They wanted to deal one of them to acquire a high potential Catcher. The Diamondbacks main priority according to him was to "upgrade their Catching position by dealing one of their Outfielders".

They loved Moreno and Toronto needed an Outfielder. It came down to analyzing which Outfielders they wanted to keep, and made the determination that Corbin Carroll was who they wanted to keep long-term in the fold over your Man Crush Varsho. Not my words. They gave Carroll an 8 year extension for 111 million in March, 2023. The words directly from the mouth of Arizona GM. But I guess you know better living in your delusions and fantasy world.

You nailed it. We are supposed to count Kirk as a win in this trade for the Blue Jays, but we can't count Corbin Carroll and Gurriel Jr. as wins for the Diamondbacks because Randle said so.

Absolutely comical from Varsho apologist and Fan Boy Randle. So we cannot count Corbin Carroll and Gurriel, but have to factor in Kirk (lol). I said this previously- Lourdes Gurriel had an all-star year in 2023 and good year in 2024. He was having a decent year this year before getting hurt. Gurriel himself said that he would not have signed a three year contract to remain in Arizona after the 2023 season, if he was not traded to Arizona in the first place.

He took less money to stay in Arizona because he and his family loved living there and the organization. So, we are not supposed to count him in the Varsho deal, because he was a free agent after year 1 (lol). But we are supposed to factor in Kirk, who was already a Blue Jay and all-star in 2022 (lol). But we cannot factor in Carroll, even when the Diamondbacks GM said in his own words that they had a decision to make on which of their Outfielders they wanted to deal (lol). So the actual trade was Varsho and Kirk for Moreno according to the logic of Fan Boy Randle.