Roster is a mess - missed draft picks are part of reason

[YogurtProducer]

How many people were arguing we should tank after the 48 win season?

new around here? People here are acting like it is obvious we should have traded away 27 year old Siakam, 27 year old VV, 24 year old OG, etc.

Maybe you are not arguing that, but plenty of people have.

When has "two timelines" ever worked? It didn't here, right.

When did we ever try "two timelines"? We won 48 games with our entire core being 27 or younger, including a 20 year old Barnes, 23 year old GTJ, 24 year old OG. Every main player on that team (FVV/GTJ/OG/Siakam/Barnes) is still a starting player in the NBA 3-4 years later.

But FWIW - Golden State famously coined the two timeline term.. and won a ring after

[kalel123]

Giving up on Walter and Mogbo (especially Walter) and assuming Dick can't return anything is a pretty bad and impatient take.

It's a take that's forced upon us by FO drafting mediocre redundancies. Dick and Walter (and Ochai) are literally eating into each other's developmental minutes behind Barrett and Ingram who are already taking bulk of available minutes at 2/3 not leaving a whole lot to begin with.

Aside from the fact that he's not very good in the first place and extremely limited in his game, Mogbo is rendered even more useless than he needs to be because we drafted CMB right after and he's better and younger than Mogbo in almost all aspects.

It's ok to draft for need in latter parts of the draft, i.e. where Walter or Mogbo were picked. And we had glaring hole at the time that is still not filled. Not saying anyone we would've drafted instead would fill it adequately but at least, those guys can play with Dick or CMB to develop together? Is that such a wild idea or a bad thing to do with 19th or 31st picks?

This FO has a type and they've been stuck in their ways. That's the real issue.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

new around here? People here are acting like it is obvious we should have traded away 27 year old Siakam, 27 year old VV, 24 year old OG, etc.

Maybe you are not arguing that, but plenty of people have.

When has "two timelines" ever worked? It didn't here, right.

When did we ever try "two timelines"? We won 48 games with our entire core being 27 or younger, including a 20 year old Barnes, 23 year old GTJ, 24 year old OG. Every main player on that team (FVV/GTJ/OG/Siakam/Barnes) is still a starting player in the NBA 3-4 years later.

But FWIW - Golden State famously coined the two timeline term.. and won a ring after

That's what this was. Win now, and in the future. It was a bad decision. He couldn't have it all, he couldn't even do one well.

As for GS, it's always been Steph's timeline.

[MiamiSPX]

Alright we're not doing a tanking thread for the 1 millionth time.

We clearly aren't tanking. The merits and downside of tanking have been discussed ad nauseum.

We couldn't even make it to 2 weeks into the season before whining about what we should have done years ago. Man, some people need to give it a rest. I've even seen some lamenting the Ingram trade lol. It is not at all crazy to say he has a good chance of going to the All-Star game but we're upset that we traded for him?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We'll be the first sub .500 team to get three all-stars.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I'll just say re picks, this franchise's success in the draft was a masterclass in patience. I don't know if they have continued that mentality, but the guys that are still going strong in the league weren't obvious wins even when they showed early results.

Gradey, JaKobe, Shead and Mogbo are still young in their careers. CMB has played 4 games? The challenge of the draft is that you get BPA but it doesn't always fit what you need, and of course the players themselves need to improve to an idealized form. Just keep the workers.

[Johnny Bball]

Giving up on Walter and Mogbo (especially Walter) and assuming Dick can't return anything is a pretty bad and impatient take.

It's a take that's forced upon us by FO drafting mediocre redundancies. Dick and Walter (and Ochai) are literally eating into each other's developmental minutes behind Barrett and Ingram who are already taking bulk of available minutes at 2/3 not leaving a whole lot to begin with.

Aside from the fact that he's not very good in the first place and extremely limited in his game, Mogbo is rendered even more useless than he needs to be because we drafted CMB right after and he's better and younger than Mogbo in almost all aspects.

It's ok to draft for need in latter parts of the draft, i.e. where Walter or Mogbo were picked. And we had glaring hole at the time that is still not filled. Not saying anyone we would've drafted instead would fill it adequately but at least, those guys can play with Dick or CMB to develop together? Is that such a wild idea or a bad thing to do with 19th or 31st picks?

This FO has a type and they've been stuck in their ways. That's the real issue.

What, you would prefer Derrick Queen just because he's not "redundant"?

Just because more trades are obvious doesn't mean the picks are bad. I guess this is the discussion of BPA or for position, and I don;t beleive you're on the good end of this, drafting by position on a team like this.

[Boselecta]

Since 2017, we haven’t drafted a single impact player outside of Barnes and he was a top-5 pick. Maybe CMB ends up something, but the rest? Nothing. No flashes, no noticeable growth… they look the exact same as when they were drafted. It’s been brutal.

[kalel123]

Giving up on Walter and Mogbo (especially Walter) and assuming Dick can't return anything is a pretty bad and impatient take.

It's a take that's forced upon us by FO drafting mediocre redundancies. Dick and Walter (and Ochai) are literally eating into each other's developmental minutes behind Barrett and Ingram who are already taking bulk of available minutes at 2/3 not leaving a whole lot to begin with.

Aside from the fact that he's not very good in the first place and extremely limited in his game, Mogbo is rendered even more useless than he needs to be because we drafted CMB right after and he's better and younger than Mogbo in almost all aspects.

It's ok to draft for need in latter parts of the draft, i.e. where Walter or Mogbo were picked. And we had glaring hole at the time that is still not filled. Not saying anyone we would've drafted instead would fill it adequately but at least, those guys can play with Dick or CMB to develop together? Is that such a wild idea or a bad thing to do with 19th or 31st picks?

This FO has a type and they've been stuck in their ways. That's the real issue.

What, you would prefer Derrick Queen just because he's not "redundant"?

Just because more trades are obvious doesn't mean the picks are bad. I guess this is the discussion of BPA or for position, and I don;t beleive you're on the good end of this, drafting by position on a team like this.

Judging by your nonsense response based on something I clearly did not say, I don't believe you're on the good end of this.

[anotherhomer]

Giving up on Walter and Mogbo (especially Walter) and assuming Dick can't return anything is a pretty bad and impatient take.

It's a take that's forced upon us by FO drafting mediocre redundancies. Dick and Walter (and Ochai) are literally eating into each other's developmental minutes behind Barrett and Ingram who are already taking bulk of available minutes at 2/3 not leaving a whole lot to begin with.

Aside from the fact that he's not very good in the first place and extremely limited in his game, Mogbo is rendered even more useless than he needs to be because we drafted CMB right after and he's better and younger than Mogbo in almost all aspects.

It's ok to draft for need in latter parts of the draft, i.e. where Walter or Mogbo were picked. And we had glaring hole at the time that is still not filled. Not saying anyone we would've drafted instead would fill it adequately but at least, those guys can play with Dick or CMB to develop together? Is that such a wild idea or a bad thing to do with 19th or 31st picks?

This FO has a type and they've been stuck in their ways. That's the real issue.

What, you would prefer Derrick Queen just because he's not "redundant"?

Just because more trades are obvious doesn't mean the picks are bad. I guess this is the discussion of BPA or for position, and I don;t beleive you're on the good end of this, drafting by position on a team like this.

nothing wrong with multiple young players at the same position to see who pans out
it's the OKC model....they draft a bunch of young guys, and see who works out and who doesn't....

[Spates]

Since 2017, we haven’t drafted a single impact player outside of Barnes and he was a top-5 pick. Maybe CMB ends up something, but the rest? Nothing. No flashes, no noticeable growth… they look the exact same as when they were drafted. It’s been brutal.

No first round draft picks in 2018, 2019, or 2022.
Losing the first two are the cost of winning it all.
Flynn over Bane was a mistake. 28 others teams did not select Bane in the first round...
Trading down in 2022 was a mistake. It would've been nice to select Nembhard. Not to mention we lost Koloko to unfortunate circumstances.
Jury is still out in draft picks 2023-2025. To say otherwise is foolish. Not tanking in 2023 was a huge mistake. Missing out on Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompson Twins, and Cason Wallace is unfortunate. But, aside from Podz, you're hard pressed to find a player drafted after 13 that has shown more than Gradey.
Ja'kobe has shown potential to be an strong POA defender.
CMB is awesome.

If anything, the setbacks are 22 and 23 but not necessarily because of the players picked. More so because of draft position.

Furthermore, in this new cap environment being able to retain talented players on cheap extensions is a massive bonus. If Gradey breaks out in year 5, that could be a huge win.

[YogurtProducer]

Since 2017, we haven’t drafted a single impact player outside of Barnes and he was a top-5 pick. Maybe CMB ends up something, but the rest? Nothing. No flashes, no noticeable growth… they look the exact same as when they were drafted. It’s been brutal.

You are aware from 2018 to 2022 we had two 1sts (#4 and #29), and then all our 2nds (except 1, which we had to cut due to medical anomalies) were in the back half of the round, right? By draft position, we picked
4
29
33
46
47
59
59

[YogurtProducer]

Since 2017, we haven’t drafted a single impact player outside of Barnes and he was a top-5 pick. Maybe CMB ends up something, but the rest? Nothing. No flashes, no noticeable growth… they look the exact same as when they were drafted. It’s been brutal.

No first round draft picks in 2018, 2019, or 2022.
Losing the first two are the cost of winning it all.
Flynn over Bane was a mistake. 28 others teams did not select Bane in the first round...
Trading down in 2022 was a mistake. It would've been nice to select Nembhard. Not to mention we lost Koloko to unfortunate circumstances.
Jury is still out in draft picks 2023-2025. To say otherwise is foolish. Not tanking in 2023 was a huge mistake. Missing out on Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompson Twins, and Cason Wallace is unfortunate. But, aside from Podz, you're hard pressed to find a player drafted after 13 that has shown more than Gradey.
Ja'kobe has shown potential to be an strong POA defender.
CMB is awesome.

If anything, the setbacks are 22 and 23 but not necessarily because of the players picked. More so because of draft position.

Furthermore, in this new cap environment being able to retain talented players on cheap extensions is a massive bonus. If Gradey breaks out in year 5, that could be a huge win.

Ah yes - you said what I tried to say but better lol

Nembhard is nice, but I do still think if Koloko doesn't get sick like he did he would have been a very good backup big

[sidsid]

You don't have the time line right. The Spurs got rid of Derozan (and also lost Patty Mills, Aldridge and Gay for nothing) the year before. They then went on to win 34 games again before actually pivoting to tank. And why did the Spurs need 3 year of Derozan to realize it was a waste of time after seeing his tenure with the Raptors, and held onto him onto him he was 32?

Fred was expiring but FO believed they would resign him, they were likely planning on resigning Siakam at that point, and the Raps were coming off 48 wins instead of 34 for the Spurs. It is crazy to argue the Raps were in a better position to tank

You keep saying the Spurs were playing the middle strat and it was foolish with the Derozan/Aldridge teams but on the other hand are making excuses for this Raptors team....The Spurs at least did something about their mid team which was obviously a plan because no franchise just blindly go with the wind....They always wanted Wemby and knew Wemby was a player they were willing and wanted to bottom out and tank for and they did just that....Thats not blind luck its a planned pivot to try and get a player they wanted....The lotto is luck but they put themselves in the position to get the result they wanted and it worked out..

All while the Raptors have played the middle post Kawhi, Continue to play the middle despite the lack of success, And just made a move for Ingram to keep us in the middle for many more years in the future here....How can you on one hand say the Spurs/Kings/Bulls (DeRozan/Lavine era) type teams are horrible runned (Playing the middle) while on the other praise what the Raptors are doing and have been doing to not much success to show for?

Seems to me like Raptors fans have Raptor goggles on because there are alot of smart people and talking heads around the NBA who talk about our team just like the fans on this board talk about them Spurs/Kings type teams who keep hovering in the middle with a team that can't really win but beat up on tanking/injured teams only...And sorry to tell you all we are in that exact position if you take the Raptors goggles off you would see it as well.

I didn't say they were horribly ran, just that TWO would have hated the Spurs management for several years. I dont believe Wemby was some master plan, they aged out most of the roster from the 48 win team, had a great offer for Murray from a team like the Hawks desperate to make an upgrade and pulled the trigger. I think its fortunate circumstances that happend to be during the Wemby draft, and that their management stategy would have played out the exact same even if it wasnt a generational prospect like Wemby.

After the Butler era didn't the Bulls do exactly what Spurs did? They traded Butler, Gibson and Mirotic away for young players and draft picks. They went on to win 20 games for the next 3 seasons, and picked 7th and 22nd, 7th and 4th in the drafts. They just had bad lottery and draft luck. They pivoted to compete after that but they really had nothing to show for those 3 years of tanking. I also think Vuc and Derozan are pretty flawed and older players to go after, but they actually would have been a pretty competitive team had Lonzo not gotten injured.

Yes, the Spurs entire DeRozan run was very much like the Raptors. The decisions post DeRozan - shifting gears - are what set them up for it. The draft picks they got for White and Murray are not valued by our FO. They would not have done those trades because that would have lead to tanking, which they don't want to do. They wouldn't trade Jak for draft picks like they did either for the same reasons.

There were pick packages for OG. There was a pick to be had for both Brown and FVV. The only reason we got picks back for Siakam is because the Pacers wouldn't give up their youth, which is what they really wanted. And we ended up trading the Pacers 2026 pick immediately. We wouldn't have CMB on this team if they had their way; the pick would have been shipped out with RJ.

There were no "great offers" missed during this run. The FO doesn't want a better draft asset stockpile and a chance at superstars at the top of the draft. They did their version of the Bulls Vuc' trade, and they're only interested in more DeMar/Ingram trades. That's the plan. It always has been.

[kalel123]

It's a take that's forced upon us by FO drafting mediocre redundancies. Dick and Walter (and Ochai) are literally eating into each other's developmental minutes behind Barrett and Ingram who are already taking bulk of available minutes at 2/3 not leaving a whole lot to begin with.

Aside from the fact that he's not very good in the first place and extremely limited in his game, Mogbo is rendered even more useless than he needs to be because we drafted CMB right after and he's better and younger than Mogbo in almost all aspects.

It's ok to draft for need in latter parts of the draft, i.e. where Walter or Mogbo were picked. And we had glaring hole at the time that is still not filled. Not saying anyone we would've drafted instead would fill it adequately but at least, those guys can play with Dick or CMB to develop together? Is that such a wild idea or a bad thing to do with 19th or 31st picks?

This FO has a type and they've been stuck in their ways. That's the real issue.

What, you would prefer Derrick Queen just because he's not "redundant"?

Just because more trades are obvious doesn't mean the picks are bad. I guess this is the discussion of BPA or for position, and I don;t beleive you're on the good end of this, drafting by position on a team like this.

nothing wrong with multiple young players at the same position to see who pans out
it's the OKC model....they draft a bunch of young guys, and see who works out and who doesn't....

That only works for a team like OKC that's stockpiled bunch of picks and can afford to draft some bums cause there's always more coming down the pipeline. They also already got their franchise player and have depth everywhere. That doesn't apply to a team like us where picks don't grow on trees so gotta make everything count as much as possible. Also, our core ain't so hot and we've had giant gaping hole in the middle for a while now. In that case, what doesn't hurt is trying to address the need with non-lotto picks or early second round picks where drafting BPA isn't as critical and there's still some half decent prospects around.

[YogurtProducer]

What, you would prefer Derrick Queen just because he's not "redundant"?

Just because more trades are obvious doesn't mean the picks are bad. I guess this is the discussion of BPA or for position, and I don;t beleive you're on the good end of this, drafting by position on a team like this.

nothing wrong with multiple young players at the same position to see who pans out
it's the OKC model....they draft a bunch of young guys, and see who works out and who doesn't....

That only works for a team like OKC that's stockpiled bunch of picks and can afford to draft some bums cause there's always more coming down the pipeline. They also already got their franchise player and have depth everywhere. That doesn't apply to a team like us where picks don't grow on trees so gotta make everything count as much as possible. Also, our core ain't so hot and we've had giant gaping hole in the middle for a while now. In that case, what doesn't hurt is trying to address the need with non-lotto picks or early second round picks where drafting BPA isn't as critical and there's still some half decent prospects around.

The OKC model is "trade aging flawed star for MVP of the league".

OKC without SGA is not that great of a team. People need to recognize that and also recognize we can't just get an SGA talent in exchange for anything we have and/or had.

[Clutch0z24]

You don't have the time line right. The Spurs got rid of Derozan (and also lost Patty Mills, Aldridge and Gay for nothing) the year before. They then went on to win 34 games again before actually pivoting to tank. And why did the Spurs need 3 year of Derozan to realize it was a waste of time after seeing his tenure with the Raptors, and held onto him onto him he was 32?

Fred was expiring but FO believed they would resign him, they were likely planning on resigning Siakam at that point, and the Raps were coming off 48 wins instead of 34 for the Spurs. It is crazy to argue the Raps were in a better position to tank

You keep saying the Spurs were playing the middle strat and it was foolish with the Derozan/Aldridge teams but on the other hand are making excuses for this Raptors team....The Spurs at least did something about their mid team which was obviously a plan because no franchise just blindly go with the wind....They always wanted Wemby and knew Wemby was a player they were willing and wanted to bottom out and tank for and they did just that....Thats not blind luck its a planned pivot to try and get a player they wanted....The lotto is luck but they put themselves in the position to get the result they wanted and it worked out..

All while the Raptors have played the middle post Kawhi, Continue to play the middle despite the lack of success, And just made a move for Ingram to keep us in the middle for many more years in the future here....How can you on one hand say the Spurs/Kings/Bulls (DeRozan/Lavine era) type teams are horrible runned (Playing the middle) while on the other praise what the Raptors are doing and have been doing to not much success to show for?

Seems to me like Raptors fans have Raptor goggles on because there are alot of smart people and talking heads around the NBA who talk about our team just like the fans on this board talk about them Spurs/Kings type teams who keep hovering in the middle with a team that can't really win but beat up on tanking/injured teams only...And sorry to tell you all we are in that exact position if you take the Raptors goggles off you would see it as well.

I didn't say they were horribly ran, just that TWO would have hated the Spurs management for several years. I dont believe Wemby was some master plan, they aged out most of the roster from the 48 win team, had a great offer for Murray from a team like the Hawks desperate to make an upgrade and pulled the trigger. I think its fortunate circumstances that happend to be during the Wemby draft, and that their management stategy would have played out the exact same even if it wasnt a generational prospect like Wemby.

After the Butler era didn't the Bulls do exactly what Spurs did? They traded Butler, Gibson and Mirotic away for young players and draft picks. They went on to win 20 games for the next 3 seasons, and picked 7th and 22nd, 7th and 4th in the drafts. They just had bad lottery and draft luck. They pivoted to compete after that but they really had nothing to show for those 3 years of tanking. I also think Vuc and Derozan are pretty flawed and older players to go after, but they actually would have been a pretty competitive team had Lonzo not gotten injured.

We all know what a championship level (Kawhi lead Raptors) And even a competitive team that can make a playoff run (Lowry/DD Lead Raptors) Looks like.....This team does not look like a team that can really make either type of run imo. Team does not mesh together, The players are individually talented but just not good enough to lead you anywhere...

So imo when you have mid teams for several years and don't show signs of serious growth year after year its not really worth to stay on that path....Unless we hit on a draft pick in the 11-13th area or we get blind luck and win the Lottery like the Mavs did with bad odds....We are stuck with the Dicks/JaKobe type of draft picks of the world that sure can make your rotation but they are not helping you win.

Wemby was infact Spurs plan....They activly tanked the season on purpose because they wanted Wemby ....I Don't wanna go do the research but if you do some searches and you go back and find videos of Spurs talking about Wemby before the draft even happened you will know it was a plan and they had success because they knew the goal and went for it instead of half assing it.

Don't get me wrong i know tanking product is not fun for anyone and it makes the team unwatchable for the year....But the outcome could be so beneficial especially in a stacked class like the 2026 one that we could find ourselves with a player that could be on that Edwards/Doncic/SGA level of good and then you would look back at the tank year and say "Wow that was such a good decision" just like the Spurs fans and Front office look back at 2023 and say "Wow that was such a good decision to tank for Wemby"

[nikster]

You keep saying the Spurs were playing the middle strat and it was foolish with the Derozan/Aldridge teams but on the other hand are making excuses for this Raptors team....The Spurs at least did something about their mid team which was obviously a plan because no franchise just blindly go with the wind....They always wanted Wemby and knew Wemby was a player they were willing and wanted to bottom out and tank for and they did just that....Thats not blind luck its a planned pivot to try and get a player they wanted....The lotto is luck but they put themselves in the position to get the result they wanted and it worked out..

All while the Raptors have played the middle post Kawhi, Continue to play the middle despite the lack of success, And just made a move for Ingram to keep us in the middle for many more years in the future here....How can you on one hand say the Spurs/Kings/Bulls (DeRozan/Lavine era) type teams are horrible runned (Playing the middle) while on the other praise what the Raptors are doing and have been doing to not much success to show for?

Seems to me like Raptors fans have Raptor goggles on because there are alot of smart people and talking heads around the NBA who talk about our team just like the fans on this board talk about them Spurs/Kings type teams who keep hovering in the middle with a team that can't really win but beat up on tanking/injured teams only...And sorry to tell you all we are in that exact position if you take the Raptors goggles off you would see it as well.

I didn't say they were horribly ran, just that TWO would have hated the Spurs management for several years. I dont believe Wemby was some master plan, they aged out most of the roster from the 48 win team, had a great offer for Murray from a team like the Hawks desperate to make an upgrade and pulled the trigger. I think its fortunate circumstances that happend to be during the Wemby draft, and that their management stategy would have played out the exact same even if it wasnt a generational prospect like Wemby.

After the Butler era didn't the Bulls do exactly what Spurs did? They traded Butler, Gibson and Mirotic away for young players and draft picks. They went on to win 20 games for the next 3 seasons, and picked 7th and 22nd, 7th and 4th in the drafts. They just had bad lottery and draft luck. They pivoted to compete after that but they really had nothing to show for those 3 years of tanking. I also think Vuc and Derozan are pretty flawed and older players to go after, but they actually would have been a pretty competitive team had Lonzo not gotten injured.

We all know what a championship level (Kawhi lead Raptors) And even a competitive team that can make a playoff run (Lowry/DD Lead Raptors) Looks like.....This team does not look like a team that can really make either type of run imo. Team does not mesh together, The players are individually talented but just not good enough to lead you anywhere...

So imo when you have mid teams for several years and don't show signs of serious growth year after year its not really worth to stay on that path....Unless we hit on a draft pick in the 11-13th area or we get blind luck and win the Lottery like the Mavs did with bad odds....We are stuck with the Dicks/JaKobe type of draft picks of the world that sure can make your rotation but they are not helping you win.

Wemby was infact Spurs plan....They activly tanked the season on purpose because they wanted Wemby ....I Don't wanna go do the research but if you do some searches and you go back and find videos of Spurs talking about Wemby before the draft even happened you will know it was a plan and they had success because they knew the goal and went for it instead of half assing it.

Don't get me wrong i know tanking product is not fun for anyone and it makes the team unwatchable for the year....But the outcome could be so beneficial especially in a stacked class like the 2026 one that we could find ourselves with a player that could be on that Edwards/Doncic/SGA level of good and then you would look back at the tank year and say "Wow that was such a good decision" just like the Spurs fans and Front office look back at 2023 and say "Wow that was such a good decision to tank for Wemby"

This is really the first year with aiming for the playoffs with this current core. Last year was very injury ridden and weve added Ingram. The Derozan/Lowry core took some time to get going and required the front office building up some depth around them to get there. This team is flawed but it wont be the final iteration. All the guys are young so they will still be contributors over the next few years as changes are made.
Im not saying Spurs didn't plan for Wemby. Im saying they traded Murray with the thought "its time to tank" not "We need to trade Murray because of this Wemby kid"

[Johnny Bball]

The OKC model. Just have another team's superstar short-sighted demand gift you an MVP and extra pick every year. Easy.

[tsherkin]

This is really the first year with aiming for the playoffs with this current core. Last year was very injury ridden and weve added Ingram. The Derozan/Lowry core took some time to get going and required the front office building up some depth around them to get there. This team is flawed but it wont be the final iteration. All the guys are young so they will still be contributors over the next few years as changes are made.
Im not saying Spurs didn't plan for Wemby. Im saying they traded Murray with the thought "its time to tank" not "We need to trade Murray because of this Wemby kid"

We definitely have work to do, and this shouldn't be the final iteration of the team. It'll take time; we weren't in an amazing position to start this push towards winning seasons, but here we are, right? So we'll see what management can do. And what development we get from the guys we have.