Raptors @ Hawks | Friday Nov 7th 730 EST | TSN

[WiggOuts]

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LMAOOOOO

What a horrendous take

Klay definitely has a case

[YogurtProducer]

I meant to say the last time he played more than 64 games was 2016-2017. Fixed.

Compare apples to apples next time.

Applying context doesn't mean it is not a fair comparison - sheesh.

Most guys are not injury prone, until they are. Bane is looking like an injury prone guy in recent years.

Your "context" is deliberately distorted. Last 3 years Ingram averaged 42 games per season. While Bane's worse season ever is 42 games lol. Bane's worst season is literally equal to Ingram's average. The difference between the two gets even worse for Ingram if you add or remove years for averages. You specifically chose 3 years to make Ingram look better than he has been.

I'm rooting for Ingram. I wish him the best.

No, I used Ingrams entire career including his 18 game last year (which easily can be taken with a grain of salt, considering he was definitely able to play last year and was held out for trade purpose (NOP) and a tank purpose (TOR)), and only used Bane for 3 years because that is when his injuries picked up.

If you are going to argue, at least read my post in full.

[TheAlchemist23]

Hope we stop seeing Ochai in the regular rotation, sans inury, all together. Gradey is clearly ahead but Battle and Walter also have more to give.

I don't agree with this.

Out of Gradey, Walter, Battle, and Ochai, he is the only one who can both defend and hit a 3. Walter IMO should be the one who is completely out (although I understand trying to give him some time development wise). Agbaji is a perfect fit alongside IQ/BI/Barnes in that starting lineup where all he does is defend and hit 3's. He should be one of the first subs into the game, if anything, and utilize his role player abilities as a... role player.

Can still start the same 5, but a quick yank of RJ for Agbaji, and maybe even Jak for Mamu, gives Barnes a nice spacey lineup to play with to for a few minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

Reality is we probably should trade one of RJ/Dick/Ochai/Walter/Battle. We do not have minutes or cap for all 5 guys.

How exactly is Ochai better than Ja'Kobe or Battle? He doesn't stick to guards on ball like Walter does nor is he the shooter Battle is. Ja'Kobe can also hit shots.

[Thaddy]

What's up with the nba schedule where we're playing the same games in the same location already?

Played bucks twice at home
Playing Hawks twice in ATL
Playing cavs twice in Cleveland
Will play 76ers twice in Philly within 2 weeks.

The schedule isn't that bad. I can see these as winnable games and good tests. This team is becoming underrated. We are a big team with great scorers. I think vision 6'9 works from PF to SG. CMB / BI / Barnes / CMB are going to be a force for years.

I think we are going to destroy teams who rely on switches and mismatches. A good example is the Bulls I think we absolutely wreck them in our match up against them.

[YogurtProducer]

Hope we stop seeing Ochai in the regular rotation, sans inury, all together. Gradey is clearly ahead but Battle and Walter also have more to give.

I don't agree with this.

Out of Gradey, Walter, Battle, and Ochai, he is the only one who can both defend and hit a 3. Walter IMO should be the one who is completely out (although I understand trying to give him some time development wise). Agbaji is a perfect fit alongside IQ/BI/Barnes in that starting lineup where all he does is defend and hit 3's. He should be one of the first subs into the game, if anything, and utilize his role player abilities as a... role player.

Can still start the same 5, but a quick yank of RJ for Agbaji, and maybe even Jak for Mamu, gives Barnes a nice spacey lineup to play with to for a few minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

Reality is we probably should trade one of RJ/Dick/Ochai/Walter/Battle. We do not have minutes or cap for all 5 guys.

How exactly is Ochai better than Ja'Kobe or Battle? He doesn't stick to guards on ball like Walter does nor is he the shooter Battle is. Ja'Kobe can also hit shots.

I don't think Walter has done anything to suggest he is a better defender than Ochai. Neither are game changers, neither are bad. Both are solid, but nothing special

Battle is a hell of a shooter, and a much worse defender.

Which is why I said Ochai is literally the only 2 guard on our team who is capable of being at least average on both sides of the floor. Battle (while underrated to me) is not a good defender, and Walter is not a good offensive player in any way. Ochai is the only guy I would feel comfortable telling him to guard a good player, and to hit some 3's on the other end. No one else is even close to a 2-way guy.

Ochai averaged 10ppg in a 3+D role last year on 50/40 splits. It is crazy we have just nuked him from the rotation. He is such a better fit alongside IQ/BI/Barnes than RJ is, and would allow us to re-allocate shots to our better scorers (such as RJ), and put Agbaji in a place to succeed as well (strictly 3+D as the 5th option).

[HumbleRen]

It is a great strategy if you can shoot. That team looks completely different if they had 3 shooters instead of 1.

For what its worth, ours didn't really fail. We had zero offensive output and still managed 48 and 41 wins with those lineups. a "6'9" team has a crazy high floor. You just need some 6'9 guys who can actually play some offence and shoot.

It failed.

Okay, then by that logic so did over half the league. Should we also just say that using traditional sized players fails as well? That era of the Raptors lacked any upper echelon players, and simply on the style of play scraped to an average of 45 wins a year. That is not a failure of the "style" of play. The style of play was vindicated.

If you really wanna dig deep, it failed due to having no bench, and capping ourselves out. It didn't fail because the players were similarly sized. And if you wanna dig even deeper - we didn't even go "vision 6'9". We started a 6'0" PG and a skinny 6'5" SG for the entire time.

I fully believe a "6'9" type team can win. It would be very hard because "6'9" type players are the most valuable in the league and the costs get crazy. But the Celtics had two very good years with a very "6'9" team. Jrue was a big PG, White was a great defensive 2 (and was bigger, or played bigger, than FVV or GTJ), Brown/Tatum speak for themselves, and with Kristaps injured both playoff runs they ran with a 6'9" Horford.

It failed lol. It worked for one single season and that was because we played our guys damn near 40 minutes a game. The next following season was a failure and it crumbled the year after that.

I don’t know why some of you guys like to pretend that was some sort of success.

[YogurtProducer]

It failed lol. It worked for one single season and that was because we played our guys damn near 40 minutes a game. The next following season was a failure and it crumbled the year after that.

Didn't I already mention that the fact we had no bench was one of the main reasons why we didn't win more? What do you think was a bigger contributing factor to only winning 48 and 41 games.

1) the 6'9" thing
2) Thad Young and Chris Boucher being #1 and #2 off the bench? (edit, how could I forget Achiwua lol)

I don’t know why some of you guys like to pretend that was some sort of success.

There is so many outcomes between "success" and "failure". If there were only 2, that would mean there was 1 success and 29 failures each year. We know that not to be true.

The 6'9" thing is a proven floor raiser, as shown by both Toronto and Orlando now. The defensive intensity and winning of the possession game is just so big to have for a team that it raises your floor. It doesn't change that you need ceiling raisers still, or shooting, or whatever.

The "failure" of that era of basketball had nothing to do with the 6'9" ideology for a # of reasons, one of which includess that we didn't even go full 6'9". Again, since you apparently didn't watch that team, or missed what I said before, we started a short PG, and a small SG in that lineup.

TLDR; that team "failed" (there, I used your word), had more to do with a lack of upper echelon talent and no bench. It really had nothing to do with the philosophy of grabbing switchable, versatile, players. You seem to think "6'9" = non-shooters. It doesn't.

[Tor_Raps]

What's up with the nba schedule where we're playing the same games in the same location already?

Played bucks twice at home
Playing Hawks twice in ATL
Playing cavs twice in Cleveland
Will play 76ers twice in Philly within 2 weeks.

The schedule isn't that bad. I can see these as winnable games and good tests. This team is becoming underrated. We are a big team with great scorers. I think vision 6'9 works from PF to SG. CMB / BI / Barnes / CMB are going to be a force for years.

I think we are going to destroy teams who rely on switches and mismatches. A good example is the Bulls I think we absolutely wreck them in our match up against them.

I wasn't complaining about the teams were playing but why we have all these games in the same location. That means either those teams never come back to Toronto or we dont go back to that city for rest of the season.

[Shakril]

What's up with the nba schedule where we're playing the same games in the same location already?

Played bucks twice at home
Playing Hawks twice in ATL
Playing cavs twice in Cleveland
Will play 76ers twice in Philly within 2 weeks.

The schedule isn't that bad. I can see these as winnable games and good tests. This team is becoming underrated. We are a big team with great scorers. I think vision 6'9 works from PF to SG. CMB / BI / Barnes / CMB are going to be a force for years.

I think we are going to destroy teams who rely on switches and mismatches. A good example is the Bulls I think we absolutely wreck them in our match up against them.

I wasn't complaining about the teams were playing but why we have all these games in the same location. That means either those teams never come back to Toronto or we dont go back to that city for rest of the season.

I am more worried about our western conference trips. The texas triple was brutal for us. I assume California wont be much better.

[everdiso]

It failed lol. It worked for one single season and that was because we played our guys damn near 40 minutes a game. The next following season was a failure and it crumbled the year after that.

Didn't I already mention that the fact we had no bench was one of the main reasons why we didn't win more? What do you think was a bigger contributing factor to only winning 48 and 41 games.

1) the 6'9" thing
2) Thad Young and Chris Boucher being #1 and #2 off the bench? (edit, how could I forget Achiwua lol)

I don’t know why some of you guys like to pretend that was some sort of success.

There is so many outcomes between "success" and "failure". If there were only 2, that would mean there was 1 success and 29 failures each year. We know that not to be true.

The 6'9" thing is a proven floor raiser, as shown by both Toronto and Orlando now. The defensive intensity and winning of the possession game is just so big to have for a team that it raises your floor. It doesn't change that you need ceiling raisers still, or shooting, or whatever.

The "failure" of that era of basketball had nothing to do with the 6'9" ideology for a # of reasons, one of which includess that we didn't even go full 6'9". Again, since you apparently didn't watch that team, or missed what I said before, we started a short PG, and a small SG in that lineup.

TLDR; that team "failed" (there, I used your word), had more to do with a lack of upper echelon talent and no bench. It really had nothing to do with the philosophy of grabbing switchable, versatile, players. You seem to think "6'9" = non-shooters. It doesn't.

Yeah we literally had the shortest backcourt in the entire league. That was never team 6'9.

[everdiso]

I don't agree with this.

Out of Gradey, Walter, Battle, and Ochai, he is the only one who can both defend and hit a 3. Walter IMO should be the one who is completely out (although I understand trying to give him some time development wise). Agbaji is a perfect fit alongside IQ/BI/Barnes in that starting lineup where all he does is defend and hit 3's. He should be one of the first subs into the game, if anything, and utilize his role player abilities as a... role player.

Can still start the same 5, but a quick yank of RJ for Agbaji, and maybe even Jak for Mamu, gives Barnes a nice spacey lineup to play with to for a few minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters.

Reality is we probably should trade one of RJ/Dick/Ochai/Walter/Battle. We do not have minutes or cap for all 5 guys.

How exactly is Ochai better than Ja'Kobe or Battle? He doesn't stick to guards on ball like Walter does nor is he the shooter Battle is. Ja'Kobe can also hit shots.

I don't think Walter has done anything to suggest he is a better defender than Ochai. Neither are game changers, neither are bad. Both are solid, but nothing special

Battle is a hell of a shooter, and a much worse defender.

Which is why I said Ochai is literally the only 2 guard on our team who is capable of being at least average on both sides of the floor. Battle (while underrated to me) is not a good defender, and Walter is not a good offensive player in any way. Ochai is the only guy I would feel comfortable telling him to guard a good player, and to hit some 3's on the other end. No one else is even close to a 2-way guy.

Ochai averaged 10ppg in a 3+D role last year on 50/40 splits. It is crazy we have just nuked him from the rotation. He is such a better fit alongside IQ/BI/Barnes than RJ is, and would allow us to re-allocate shots to our better scorers (such as RJ), and put Agbaji in a place to succeed as well (strictly 3+D as the 5th option).

Dick/Jakobe are young enough to hope that their versatile offensive skillset can come together and become quality rotation guys imo. Their skills are complete enough that you can even see starter upside if they can find some consistency.

Ochai? Eh. Shooting 40% from 3 was the only thing that made him passable last year, and that was only due to shooting 55% from the corners - where he took nearly half his threes. And we see now that his shot can abandon him pretty quickly too. Absolutely useless offensively outside of those corner 3s, and only ok not great defensively cuz he's too small to handle most good offensive wings. He's 25 now - i'm not holding out any hope on him being a player tbh.

[MoneyBall]

Applying context doesn't mean it is not a fair comparison - sheesh.

Most guys are not injury prone, until they are. Bane is looking like an injury prone guy in recent years.

Your "context" is deliberately distorted. Last 3 years Ingram averaged 42 games per season. While Bane's worse season ever is 42 games lol. Bane's worst season is literally equal to Ingram's average. The difference between the two gets even worse for Ingram if you add or remove years for averages. You specifically chose 3 years to make Ingram look better than he has been.

I'm rooting for Ingram. I wish him the best.

No, I used Ingrams entire career including his 18 game last year (which easily can be taken with a grain of salt, considering he was definitely able to play last year and was held out for trade purpose (NOP) and a tank purpose (TOR)), and only used Bane for 3 years because that is when his injuries picked up.

If you are going to argue, at least read my post in full.

Yes, you're comparing different sample sizes for each player, that's literally the problem lol. Now do Ingram's last 3 years vs Bane's last 3 years. Or career vs career.

[YogurtProducer]

Dick/Jakobe are young enough to hope that their versatile offensive skillset can come together and become quality rotation guys imo. Their skills are complete enough that you can even see starter upside if they can find some consistency.

I do agree, but Ochai is only 25 for what its worth

Ochai? Eh. Shooting 40% from 3 was the only thing that made him passable last year, and that was only due to shooting 55% from the corners - where he took nearly half his threes.

Your #'s are off. He shot 54% of his 3's from the corner at a 42% clip. He shot above the break at a 38% clip. Actually quite good.

And we see now that his shot can abandon him pretty quickly too. Absolutely useless offensively outside of those corner 3s

he has taken 11 3's this year. We absolutely cannot say it has abandoned him just yet, and as I said above, he is not useless offensively outside the corners.

He plays his role well. You don't got 50/40 by being useless.

and only ok not great defensively cuz he's too small to handle most good offensive wings. He's 25 now - i'm not holding out any hope on him being a player tbh.

And it is fine if he is not great, because Dick is downright bad and RJ is below average as well. I would settle for a guy to chase 1s and 2s around. Let someone else handle to 3s/4s (and it certainly isn't Dick or Walter to do that either).

He absolutely is a player and will be for the next half decade. He is just crunched with so many 2's on our roster currently, and likely his contract makes him the one to go. But he is certainly an NBA rotation player.

We either got to trade him for a better fit, or play him. Playing Walter over him is not utilziing our resources well. (except for development, which I get and do support).

[YogurtProducer]

Your "context" is deliberately distorted. Last 3 years Ingram averaged 42 games per season. While Bane's worse season ever is 42 games lol. Bane's worst season is literally equal to Ingram's average. The difference between the two gets even worse for Ingram if you add or remove years for averages. You specifically chose 3 years to make Ingram look better than he has been.

I'm rooting for Ingram. I wish him the best.

No, I used Ingrams entire career including his 18 game last year (which easily can be taken with a grain of salt, considering he was definitely able to play last year and was held out for trade purpose (NOP) and a tank purpose (TOR)), and only used Bane for 3 years because that is when his injuries picked up.

If you are going to argue, at least read my post in full.

Yes, you're comparing different sample sizes for each player, that's literally the problem lol. Now do Ingram's last 3 years vs Bane's last 3 years. Or career vs career.

Why don't we do first 5 years vs first 5 years? Oh, because it works out to 313 games a piece and hurts your argument.

Like I said, there is legitimate reasons to alter the data points (if you read my posts, you'd understand why).

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I'm sorry but from all my experience watching and playing ball, Ochai has "fake shooter" written all over him. He's the guy that can hit open corner 3's at a low clip and that makes his 3PT% appear good but when you watch him, he isn't super confident in his shot and basically only will shoot it if he's on an island. Any sort of contest and his misses are WAY off.

He's similar to Issac Okoro to me in the sense that both were technically 39%+ 3pT shooters, but I wouldn't feel comfortable letting Ochai take 8-10 3's in a game if left open and he probably would start passing up looks after a few misses as well. Versus a hypothetical playoff defense, Ochai isn't going to be getting wide open looks and his % fall off a cliff if anyone is within 6 feet of him. He also can't dribble or playmake so the ceiling is actually super low

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

[everdiso]

Dick/Jakobe are young enough to hope that their versatile offensive skillset can come together and become quality rotation guys imo. Their skills are complete enough that you can even see starter upside if they can find some consistency.

I do agree, but Ochai is only 25 for what its worth

Ochai? Eh. Shooting 40% from 3 was the only thing that made him passable last year, and that was only due to shooting 55% from the corners - where he took nearly half his threes.

Your #'s are off. He shot 54% of his 3's from the corner at a 42% clip. He shot above the break at a 38% clip. Actually quite good.

well ****. my bad.

guess we can count on him being a 35% shooter after all. but still, not sure it's enough to make him a non-liability offensively.

And we see now that his shot can abandon him pretty quickly too. Absolutely useless offensively outside of those corner 3s

he has taken 11 3's this year. We absolutely cannot say it has abandoned him just yet, and as I said above, he is not useless offensively outside the corners.

He plays his role well. You don't got 50/40 by being useless.

and only ok not great defensively cuz he's too small to handle most good offensive wings. He's 25 now - i'm not holding out any hope on him being a player tbh.

And it is fine if he is not great, because Dick is downright bad and RJ is below average as well. I would settle for a guy to chase 1s and 2s around. Let someone else handle to 3s/4s (and it certainly isn't Dick or Walter to do that either).

He absolutely is a player and will be for the next half decade. He is just crunched with so many 2's on our roster currently, and likely his contract makes him the one to go. But he is certainly an NBA rotation player.

We either got to trade him for a better fit, or play him. Playing Walter over him is not utilziing our resources well. (except for development, which I get and do support).

Eh he was a rotation player on a bad team when he was shooting 40% from 3.

Honestly all i see here is another McCaw. Length and effort on D without actually being good. McCaw couldn't shoot any but he could handle a bit and Ochai can;t.

[Spates]

Read on Twitter

LMAOOOOO

What a horrendous take

Klay definitely has a case

First impression is that this a homerish take. But I guess you can make an argument.

What's the exclusion criteria? All-star selections? All-Nba?

Paul George might be the pinnacle of 3&D but I'm sure many will think he doesn't qualify.

Of non-star players I think Danny Green and Klay Thompson are certainly ahead of OG. You'd even have to give modern Brook Lopez consideration. PHX Shawn Marion.

The best 3&D players transcend the title and become more. Like Jalen Williams, for example. Or Kawhi.

[YogurtProducer]

Eh he was a rotation player on a bad team when he was shooting 40% from 3.

So? Shooting 40% from 3 in a season is legitimately impressive, especially on bad teams where you might not as many opens look as you would on a good one.

He probably is not a 40% guy, but he was 37% in college and is 35% in the NBA so he is still a positive shooter. FWIW - Walter was a 34% college guy

Honestly all i see here is another McCaw. Length and effort on D without actually being good. McCaw couldn't shoot any but he could handle a bit and Ochai can;t.

Hate Ochai all you want - but McCaw is a really, really bad comp.

McCaw was a horrible shooter (so already the offensive side is a bad example), and was probably similar-ish to Agbaji on D. McCaw with a 3 is a good NBA role player. McCaW was already otu of the league at 25. Agabji will be here for another 5+ years

[HumbleRen]

I'm sorry but from all my experience watching and playing ball, Ochai has "fake shooter" written all over him. He's the guy that can hit open corner 3's at a low clip and that makes his 3PT% appear good but when you watch him, he isn't super confident in his shot and basically only will shoot it if he's on an island. Any sort of contest and his misses are WAY off.

He's similar to Issac Okoro to me in the sense that both were technically 39%+ 3pT shooters, but I wouldn't feel comfortable letting Ochai take 8-10 3's in a game if left open and he probably would start passing up looks after a few misses as well. Versus a hypothetical playoff defense, Ochai isn't going to be getting wide open looks and his % fall off a cliff if anyone is within 6 feet of him. He also can't dribble or playmake so the ceiling is actually super low

I'm prioritizing other guys and looking to trade Ochai for a backup big

Jakobe can do everything Ochai can. I don’t know why people are hanged up on Ochai.

He takes the easiest shots on the team and is a slightly above average defender on wings. That’s very replaceable lol.

[YogurtProducer]

Jakobe can do everything Ochai can. I don’t know why people are hanged up on Ochai.

He takes the easiest shots on the team and is a slightly above average defender on wings. That’s very replaceable lol.

Really? Why hasn't he then?

If Ochai takes such easy shots, anyone should be able to stroll into the lineup and shoot 39.9% from 3.