It's time to be honest - the Lakers look great and are bonafide contenders

[tsherkin]

Both healthy Lively and healthy KP are better than Ayton, even this version of Ayton.

Defensively, for sure. I think the consideration there is more on the offensive end, where it's pretty clear that DA is a lot more talented. Whether that makes him better overall is another story, of course, because those guys hustled like hell and had their own utility on O. I figure Dallas was basically a legit SF away from a title in 2024, or perhaps just hitting their corner 3s in the Boston series. They were very good.

[Anderson Hunt]

100% Lakers will do some trade this season to bring more defensive players (for Gabe & Knecht , picks)

The Lakers don't have any room in their rotation for a defensive wing.

Doncic, LeBron, LaRavia, and Hachimura have all earned the right to play substantial minutes at defensive wing.

Even if they trade Vanderbilt and Knecht, they don't have any real minutes at defensive wing unless LeBron and/or Hachimura get all the backup center minutes. Even still, with Ayton's good play, that only opens up another 15-18 minutes.

Their biggest need is a small, athletic point of attack defensive guard who can shoot and score. This is the archetype they should be pursuing, not an oversized defensive wing.

They need a DeAnthony Melton-type more than they need a Herb Jones-type. There just aren't any minutes for a guy like Herb Jones.

Nick Smith could fill that role, but he isn't nearly good enough defensively to give their rotation what it needs. Gabe Vincent is sufficient defensively, but he lacks the offensive spark. Bronny James is still a deer in head lights.

If I were them, I'd take a chance on Malik Monk. He's not what you think of when you think of defense, but I think when given a consistent role, with proper coaching, and vocal defensive leaders on the team (Marcus Smart), he can be impactful guarding most point guards.

Malik Monk is the guy they should go after:

Vanderbilt, Vincent, and Knecht
for
Monk, Carter, and Nique Clifford

Benefits SAC because they get off from Monk's 3 years, 60 million remaining on his contract in favor of Vincent's expiring and one more year of Vanderbilt at 11 mill. They also get to take a look at Knecht who could potentially replace Monk's firepower off the bench and, in getting Vanderbilt, they get to test a legit defensive PF out, something they severely lack on their roster.

Benefits LAL because they get scoring and athleticism (and hopefully some positive POA defense) off the bench from Monk. For taking on Monk's longer more expensive deal, they also get to try out two young defensive prospects in Carter and Clifford.

PG - Doncic - Reaves - Carter
SG - Smart - Monk - James
C -- Ayton - Hayes - Kleber
PF - James - LaRavia - Thiero
SF - Hachimura - Clifford

Monk a terrible fit. Lakers need a herb jones over melton any day of the week.

Gabe and smart are already melton types. Don’t have one legit wing defender

There are no minutes for Herb Jones. With Doncic, James, Hachimura, and LaRavia, he'd be a 16 minute per game player.

Meanwhile, in the backcourt, both Smart and Vincent, while good defenders, are prone to not being able to hit the three-ball for prolonged stretches.

If they want to improve, they need to upgrade Vincent's role. A consistent guy in this role, as backup to Smart, can change the outcome of many games.

I don't deny the team could use more defense on the wings, but with their current collection of wings, there just aren't any minutes within the rotation for an impact guy to flourish.

[Liam_Gallagher]

There are no minutes for Herb Jones.

Lakers should steer far, far away from Malik Monk types. It wasn't a coincidence that the 2022 Lakers were horrific defensively and he was their main option off the bench. This team desperately needs a 3&D wing. You say there are no minutes for Herb Jones, but they'd find a way to fit him in. At this point LaRavia hasn't proven himself to be a realistic playoff option - time will tell there. With Herb Jones, they're basically sacrificing their 2027 free agency plans (Jokic, Giannis), but it would basically guarantee them to become contenders this year and a serious threat to win it all. Is it worth it? Maybe.

Gabe Vincent, Dalton Knecht, and a future 1st for Herb Jones. NOP gets to tank, they get off the Herb money, and get a promising young shooter in Knecht.

G - Luka [36] | Smart [22]
G - Austin [36] | Herbert [27]
F - LaBron [35] | LaRavia [14]
F - Hachimura [28] | Vanderbilt [5]
C - Ayton [32] | Hayes [5]

I don't see a whole lot of Vanderbilt and Hayes when the roster is fully healthy (if that even happens).

[tamaraw08]

The kid is a very mobile 7-4 with decent handles and he is shooting less than 44% from the field the last 3 games.

Oh no. The sky is falling.

You know in his MVP season, Shaq had a 3-game stretch over which he shot 42.6% from the field, right? Then he had another over which he shot 35.3% in the first game and 40.9% in the third game (but had a monster game in the middle). Then he had a 4-game stretch where he shot 45.6%. And this is from a guy who basically never shot beyond 8 feet.

Small sample sizes aren't useful. And pointing out 3 games at the start of a season is especially pointless.

I know it's early but he is averaging 3.7 assists to 3.5 turnovers per game.

And?

He's an excellent passer. That's been apparent since his rookie year. But he's also a big man and a slasher, and his turnover average is inflated by two games where he had 6 turnovers. Making any kind of analysis on the basis of that average 8 games into the season is exceptionally short-sighted.

Great job there picking and choosing what to cut and paste about my quote.
This is what I said.

Wait, is he unstoppable on offense now or not?
I did say he is REALLY GOOD.
The kid is a very mobile 7-4 with decent handles and he is shooting less than 44% from the field the last 3 games.
I know it's early but he is averaging 3.7 assists to 3.5 turnovers per game.
What exactly did I say that made my opinion about his game weird?

I asked you a question which you totally ignored. Is he unstoppable or NOT?
I posted his stats to support my OPINION that he is NOT unstoppable! If he is, then his FG% and assists to turnovers etc would be to the roof.
And you make it sound that he never played in the league before as if he is a true rookie. The guy has played 124 games PLUS many international games.
Excellent passer apparent his his rookie year? He had 6.9 assists to 5.9 turnovers his rookie year.
The guy has averaged 5.7 assists to 5.3 turnovers/100 in his career, and PLEASE don't pick and choose in cutting and pasting my comments to put it out of context because I know he is getting BETTER, down to now just 4.1 but his assists also went down to 4.5
Again he is getting BETTER esp cutting down on his 3pt attempts/100.
Wemby is ALREADY VERY GOOD but not unstoppable YET in my opinion.
now let me ask you again, what part of my comments made it "weird"?
btw, for a Mod here, I find it weird that you are being sarcastic with your reply "oh no....".

[kobe_vs_jordan]

The Lakers don't have any room in their rotation for a defensive wing.

Doncic, LeBron, LaRavia, and Hachimura have all earned the right to play substantial minutes at defensive wing.

Even if they trade Vanderbilt and Knecht, they don't have any real minutes at defensive wing unless LeBron and/or Hachimura get all the backup center minutes. Even still, with Ayton's good play, that only opens up another 15-18 minutes.

Their biggest need is a small, athletic point of attack defensive guard who can shoot and score. This is the archetype they should be pursuing, not an oversized defensive wing.

They need a DeAnthony Melton-type more than they need a Herb Jones-type. There just aren't any minutes for a guy like Herb Jones.

Nick Smith could fill that role, but he isn't nearly good enough defensively to give their rotation what it needs. Gabe Vincent is sufficient defensively, but he lacks the offensive spark. Bronny James is still a deer in head lights.

If I were them, I'd take a chance on Malik Monk. He's not what you think of when you think of defense, but I think when given a consistent role, with proper coaching, and vocal defensive leaders on the team (Marcus Smart), he can be impactful guarding most point guards.

Malik Monk is the guy they should go after:

Vanderbilt, Vincent, and Knecht
for
Monk, Carter, and Nique Clifford

Benefits SAC because they get off from Monk's 3 years, 60 million remaining on his contract in favor of Vincent's expiring and one more year of Vanderbilt at 11 mill. They also get to take a look at Knecht who could potentially replace Monk's firepower off the bench and, in getting Vanderbilt, they get to test a legit defensive PF out, something they severely lack on their roster.

Benefits LAL because they get scoring and athleticism (and hopefully some positive POA defense) off the bench from Monk. For taking on Monk's longer more expensive deal, they also get to try out two young defensive prospects in Carter and Clifford.

PG - Doncic - Reaves - Carter
SG - Smart - Monk - James
C -- Ayton - Hayes - Kleber
PF - James - LaRavia - Thiero
SF - Hachimura - Clifford

Monk a terrible fit. Lakers need a herb jones over melton any day of the week.

Gabe and smart are already melton types. Don’t have one legit wing defender

There are no minutes for Herb Jones. With Doncic, James, Hachimura, and LaRavia, he'd be a 16 minute per game player.

Meanwhile, in the backcourt, both Smart and Vincent, while good defenders, are prone to not being able to hit the three-ball for prolonged stretches.

If they want to improve, they need to upgrade Vincent's role. A consistent guy in this role, as backup to Smart, can change the outcome of many games.

I don't deny the team could use more defense on the wings, but with their current collection of wings, there just aren't any minutes within the rotation for an impact guy to flourish.

Rui can definitely have his minutes cut. Cut Hayes minutes. Cut Vando minutes. Cut Dalton minutes. James can play the 3 to 5. Herb can play 2 to 4. smart can play 1 to 3.

The argument there aren’t any minutes for an elite wing defender is far fetched. He could get an easy 30 minutes a game for the lakers. Especially with LeBron and Luka injury concern.

A team with Luka, LeBron , Rui, ayton and reaves should have the offensive part already covered.

[tsherkin]

Great job there picking and choosing what to cut and paste about my quote.

I addressed the turnover element directly. It's based on one game, not even two. I had been looking at the column for fouls, but he has only the one 6-turnover game.

And you make it sound that he never played in the league before as if he is a true rookie. The guy has played 124 games PLUS many international games.

International games are not terribly relevant.

Excellent passer apparent his his rookie year? He had 6.9 assists to 5.9 turnovers his rookie year.

Right, but the reads he was making made his vision extremely apparent, and he didn't lack for technical passing ability at all. It's common for bigs to have a higher turnover rate, as it is for slashers, and is it for rookies in general. Wemby's TOV% as a rookie was 16.2%. Lebron's was 13.9%. Shaq's was 15.9%. Jokic's was 13.2%.

Nothing about that is especially concerning. Only 123 of his passes resulted in turnovers in his rookie season. The rest of them were turnovers on scoring possessions and such like. He had two dozen turnovers just on travels, 3-second violations, stepping out of bounds, etc.

You have to break down the types of turnovers before you start ripping into turnover average as anything important in terms of passing. Applying positional context helps.

Wemby doesn't have problems as a passer. He's had a fairly weak offensive team and in that year specifically, was adjusting to the league in a fashion fairly similar for rookies across the breadth of NBA history, especially bigs. He has also seen linear improvement in his turnover rate and averages from season to season.

Meantime, pointing FG% over 3 games is one of the most useless things one can do, so yes, it was met with sarcasm. We aren't 10 games into the season, and even in dominant seasons, players can have a rough 3-game stretch (which can be affected by a single game, no less, though isn't always). Between that, and a look at turnovers without any nuance, the post doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't matter whether or not he is presently unstoppable, because the specific criticisms were worthless.

[KrAzY3]

It certainly helps when you get one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history.

Any legit trade would have included at least Austin Reaves.

[tamaraw08]

Great job there picking and choosing what to cut and paste about my quote.

I addressed the turnover element directly. It's based on one game, not even two. I had been looking at the column for fouls, but he has only the one 6-turnover game.

And you make it sound that he never played in the league before as if he is a true rookie. The guy has played 124 games PLUS many international games.

International games are not terribly relevant.

Excellent passer apparent his his rookie year? He had 6.9 assists to 5.9 turnovers his rookie year.

Right, but the reads he was making made his vision extremely apparent, and he didn't lack for technical passing ability at all. It's common for bigs to have a higher turnover rate, as it is for slashers, and is it for rookies in general. Wemby's TOV% as a rookie was 16.2%. Lebron's was 13.9%. Shaq's was 15.9%. Jokic's was 13.2%.

Nothing about that is especially concerning. Only 123 of his passes resulted in turnovers in his rookie season. The rest of them were turnovers on scoring possessions and such like. He had two dozen turnovers just on travels, 3-second violations, stepping out of bounds, etc.

You have to break down the types of turnovers before you start ripping into turnover average as anything important in terms of passing. Applying positional context helps.

Wemby doesn't have problems as a passer. He's had a fairly weak offensive team and in that year specifically, was adjusting to the league in a fashion fairly similar for rookies across the breadth of NBA history, especially bigs. He has also seen linear improvement in his turnover rate and averages from season to season.

Meantime, pointing FG% over 3 games is one of the most useless things one can do, so yes, it was met with sarcasm. We aren't 10 games into the season, and even in dominant seasons, players can have a rough 3-game stretch (which can be affected by a single game, no less, though isn't always). Between that, and a look at turnovers without any nuance, the post doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't matter whether or not he is presently unstoppable, because the specific criticisms were worthless.

ok fine, Wemby has career FG% of 47.2% in 124 games, and YES he is improving and my point again is he is NOT unstoppable... yet.
I would not even be surprised if he may even hit 55-60% this season.
What specific criticisms were worthless again?
What would make him unstoppable?
but okay, let's agree to disagree with our takes.

[tsherkin]

ok fine, Wemby has career FG% of 47.2% in 124 games,

Sure, and over that time, he's also shot 55.4% inside the arc. He makes his shots just fine, he has just taken a lot of 3s to this point in his career, so his raw FG% is lower. Elementary stuff.

What specific criticisms were worthless again?

1) Using a 3-game sample as meaningful
2) Complaining less than 10 games into a season
3) Addressing his turnovers without context or nuance

I was pretty explicit about all that in my last post, if you actually read it.

[tamaraw08]

ok fine, Wemby has career FG% of 47.2% in 124 games,

Sure, and over that time, he's also shot 55.4% inside the arc. He makes his shots just fine, he has just taken a lot of 3s to this point in his career, so his raw FG% is lower. Elementary stuff.

What specific criticisms were worthless again?

1) Using a 3-game sample as meaningful
2) Complaining less than 10 games into a season
3) Addressing his turnovers without context or nuance

I was pretty explicit about all that in my last post, if you actually read it.

wow, you are crucifying me for mentioning his FGs for 3 games but not even 1 sarcastic comment about the Thread title about Bane's 3 game sample?
Complaining? who is complaining? I REPEATEDLY SAID he is a VERY GOOD PLAYER and you got so annoyed about 1 freaking sentence about his FG %,
My MAIN opinion was that he is not Unstoppable, can't you focus on that?
So what is your position? Wemby is a perfect player that has no weakness, literally no areas that he needs to improve on into becoming a COMPLETE unstoppable player?

[Ballings7]

Lake Show, definitely have been one of the consistently good teams early,

But I think, there are still two factors to contribute to that, in semi-disguse:

--- The team rotation and make-up has been more "simple" ... offensively, its been either Luka or Reaves, or just them two as the "guys" offensively -- no LeBron to base Reaves and Luka around, and any potential defensive issues there in different line-ups (not all the time).

--> LeBron's return: This will be interesting and probably take a bit of time to flesh out once he's back. LeBron to this point is not a third option primarily, and probably will not be one game to game. More below:

--> What LeBron SHOULD do, is just play a Pippen-role: handle the ball, pass-first, score opportunistically, defend, rebound. Take over offensively when its not Luka's night, everyone knows that's available. Be a second or third option, more often than not. Will he? Will JJ? I'm gonna lean towards no. If he does that, then any concerns and complexity are minimized.


--- Its still early in the season. Teams are not in full form. Teams are still getting into rhythm with players, and chemistry. For most teams 1-3 weeks in, most of the games are really extended pre-season. I think this factor goes away and means less in another couple weeks or so. 10-15 game mark.

Can they keep it up as being a top 3-4 seed (currently #2)? No. I think they come back down to the 2nd-tier and intermittent play-in flirtation zone of teams. Not a bonafide contender for the title, or conference finals.

[Vae Victus]

There are no minutes for Herb Jones.

Lakers should steer far, far away from Malik Monk types. It wasn't a coincidence that the 2022 Lakers were horrific defensively and he was their main option off the bench. This team desperately needs a 3&D wing. You say there are no minutes for Herb Jones, but they'd find a way to fit him in. At this point LaRavia hasn't proven himself to be a realistic playoff option - time will tell there. With Herb Jones, they're basically sacrificing their 2027 free agency plans (Jokic, Giannis), but it would basically guarantee them to become contenders this year and a serious threat to win it all. Is it worth it? Maybe.

Gabe Vincent, Dalton Knecht, and a future 1st for Herb Jones. NOP gets to tank, they get off the Herb money, and get a promising young shooter in Knecht.

G - Luka [36] | Smart [22]
G - Austin [36] | Herbert [27]
F - LaBron [35] | LaRavia [14]
F - Hachimura [28] | Vanderbilt [5]
C - Ayton [32] | Hayes [5]

I don't see a whole lot of Vanderbilt and Hayes when the roster is fully healthy (if that even happens).

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have Herb Jones on the roster, he's exactly the type of player you need in a league dominated by athletic do it all wings, someone you can toss at them to slow them down somewhat, and not be useless on offense (hit open shots, make good cuts). Howevoer NOP has no incentive to tank as they committed one of the STUPIDEST trades ever in trading away an unprotected FRP, and trading Jones unless for an overpay package, simply isnt going to happen. Yea it'll be trivial to find minutes for Jones, he's a fine young athletic wing, and i'd happily sacrifices Hayes, Vando, Vincent, and Bronny's (LOL) mins for him. Just push LBJ and Rui to get all the PF/backup PC/C mins (as smallball Cs they're fine) while Jones gets most of the SF mins with LaRavia backing him up. But again, this is a dream trade, he's simply not being moved.

At this point, we'll see if the Lakers FO think this team is legit or not. They either trade the expirings + draft capital for a good player with multiple years left and thus blowing up the 2nd FA max plan. Or they stay the course and just play the season out and go find Luka his best Max FA partner and build around them. Luka is still in his prime and extended, so theyre not under the gun just yet.

[tsherkin]

wow, you are crucifying me for mentioning his FGs for 3 games but not even 1 sarcastic comment about the Thread title about Bane's 3 game sample?

Haven't been posting in that thread, so it hasn't come up. Here, however, you were attempting to make a critical comment about Wemby on the basis of a couple nonsensical arguments. Your broader point about whether or not he is unstoppable isn't wrong, it's just that you're making odd comments that aren't valid.

Complaining? who is complaining? I REPEATEDLY SAID he is a VERY GOOD PLAYER and you got so annoyed about 1 freaking sentence about his FG %,

Because you offered them up as if they were material support to your point.

So what is your position? Wemby is a perfect player that has no weakness, literally no areas that he needs to improve on into becoming a COMPLETE unstoppable player?

No, that would be stupid. And neither of us is stupid.

The specific points you were making weren't relevant or accurate, though. His turnovers aren't an issue with his passing; that was an error because you just looked at raw TPG and assist-to-turnover ratio. That's an issue of not looking at how he was generating the turnovers, and making an errant assumption and then doubling down on it as we spoke.

And then the FG% was just odd. It's early in the season, so numbers are quite volatile. And a 3-game sample is about as meaningless as it can get, so his FG% over 3 games is beyond useless as a data point, as I illustrated. The specific things you were using to substantiate your point were the problem, not the broader idea that he isn't yet unstoppable.

[vxmike]

I would put the Rockets above those other teams. They have the best point differential in the league, and they’ve been shockingly good on offense.

I think they might get there but too early to say for sure. I think the lack of a PG may hurt them eventually. Basically it’s too early to say if they’re in that 1st tier IMO.

I think you are selling the Rockets short. They can play defense and rebound with anyone and are deep, even without VanVleet. Plus, they have plenty of picks to upgrade the point guard spot after December 15. Dorian Finney-Smith, a good wing defender, hasn’t even played this season, but they have been using Josh Okogie in his place.

Durant gives them the late-game closer they lacked last year, and Sengun has elevated his game this year (he’s the team’s real point guard and has been taking and making threes). They finally put Amen Thompson back at the dunker spot on offense the last two games, and he’s been much better offensively.

I watched the Rockets\Spurs tonight and it’s really obvious Houston needs to trade for a PG. Durant is still really good and I like their team overall. However, they struggled against an aggressive Spurs defense with Durant and Eason trying to be primary ball handlers. The frontcourt and wing rotation looks great.

Even grabbing a guy like TJ McConnell to run the offense for 24 minutes would be huge for them.

[durden_tyler]

The Lakers' next games:

@ Atlanta
@ Charlotte
@ Oklahoma City
@ New Orleans
@ Milwaukee
vs Utah
@ Utah
vs LA
vs Dallas

Thank you for this thread, i think they are near to 0.500 than top of the West standings before November ends.

This seems like a pretty mild schedule, no?

Mid as all hell.

RealGM grasping for straws with this declaration I see.

Yup, that's the point. These are mid teams yes and the Lakers will have a disappointing 0.500ish record in this stretch.

[KyRo23]

This seems like a pretty mild schedule, no?

Mid as all hell.

RealGM grasping for straws with this declaration I see.

Yup, that's the point. These are mid teams yes and the Lakers will have a disappointing 0.500ish record in this stretch.

You didn't really make your case though. LA is 7-2 and they're playing a weak schedule, so you think they will be .500 by the end of November? Odd stance

[CobraCommander]

I HATE THIS....

[davidv2001]

I think they might get there but too early to say for sure. I think the lack of a PG may hurt them eventually. Basically it’s too early to say if they’re in that 1st tier IMO.

I think you are selling the Rockets short. They can play defense and rebound with anyone and are deep, even without VanVleet. Plus, they have plenty of picks to upgrade the point guard spot after December 15. Dorian Finney-Smith, a good wing defender, hasn’t even played this season, but they have been using Josh Okogie in his place.

Durant gives them the late-game closer they lacked last year, and Sengun has elevated his game this year (he’s the team’s real point guard and has been taking and making threes). They finally put Amen Thompson back at the dunker spot on offense the last two games, and he’s been much better offensively.

I watched the Rockets\Spurs tonight and it’s really obvious Houston needs to trade for a PG. Durant is still really good and I like their team overall. However, they struggled against an aggressive Spurs defense with Durant and Eason trying to be primary ball handlers. The frontcourt and wing rotation looks great.

Even grabbing a guy like TJ McConnell to run the offense for 24 minutes would be huge for them.

I’m a Rockets’ fan, and I completely agree they would benefit from getting a point guard after December 15. It would make Sengun and Durant’s jobs a lot easier. McConnell is a good suggestion, as he’s good at running an NBA offense. My only concern with him is the lack of outside shooting. I’d even take a combo guard type like Collin Sexton or Malik Monk if the deal was right. Sexton would add more shooting to the roster and he can help with facilitating. Payton Pritchard, Tre Jones or Derrick White are other names that make sense.

[Handlez]

Lol not even close.

[durden_tyler]

Mid as all hell.

RealGM grasping for straws with this declaration I see.

Yup, that's the point. These are mid teams yes and the Lakers will have a disappointing 0.500ish record in this stretch.

You didn't really make your case though. LA is 7-2 and they're playing a weak schedule, so you think they will be .500 by the end of November? Odd stance

i was arguing against being “bonafide contenders”, as they are far from that. Could be a very good team but not great (contenders) owing to Luka’s presence.


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