Positive QUAD Talk (Scottie/BI/RJ/IQ)

[tsherkin]

BI and RJ are not first class defenders, but they can be average. If we got good scoring efficiency, we just need a better poa defence from pg position. Peoltl is a good rim protector, SB is really good, BI and RJ has length to cover grounds.

Average is in reach, sure. But he was talking about us becoming a league-topping defense. I don't see that happening.

We could be better than we are now, and we don't NEED to be the best D in the league in order to do very well as a team, but that's a whole separate thing.

[Merit]

do we have a nickname for them?

how about 3 six mafia?

3 because there's 3 of them and/or they are hitting their 3's

six because toronto

mafia because they are all clearly italian

Man, if that wouldn’t get flagged for copyright infringement at the game, I’d be all in. Gotta send this to Matt and Jack and Alvin.

[Merit]

I just love how distinct each guy's offensive game is. There's no stepping on each other's toes their skillsets all take advantage of different matchups and defenses.

This is why I’m optimistic. All we gotta add is better POA defense and some shooting. IQ - you hearing me?

[hype_2004]

I just love how distinct each guy's offensive game is. There's no stepping on each other's toes their skillsets all take advantage of different matchups and defenses.

This is why I’m optimistic. All we gotta add is better POA defense and some shooting. IQ - you hearing me?

When IQ picks it up and he eventually will we gonna be scary, this teams chemistry if off the charts you can see it and feel it, team has nothing to lose and everything to gain, sky's the limit just like the Jays this year.

[tsherkin]

I just love how distinct each guy's offensive game is. There's no stepping on each other's toes their skillsets all take advantage of different matchups and defenses.

This is why I’m optimistic. All we gotta add is better POA defense and some shooting. IQ - you hearing me?

Some improved POA defense would be nice. We could use a little more rebounding in general (especially on the offensive end), too. We're 5th in the NBA in 3P% right now, and Quick's been shooting it well enough for several games. Obviously, Shead and Scottie, Battle and CMB will all regress a little, so Quick's shooting will be that much more important as the season wears on, for sure.

[everdiso]

Only two teams have 3 guys averaging 20+ppg - Toronto and Denver (Jokic/Murray/Gordon).

[WuTang_CMB]

Keep it up Scottie!!

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[mihaic]

If IQ rounds back into form, we'll have a starting 5 with 4 above-average, players. One of them is a strong all-star (that is, strongly not a borderline all-star and not a superstar), and three are borderline all-stars. Very intriguing! Unfortunately, glaring roster flaws make me wonder whether we can get the most out of them.

Unfortunately I still that we have, in the best case, the rizz of a team whose best player would be the third best player on a championship team and three players who'd be the fourth best player.

Detroit Pistons early 2000s.

Yes, that's what I want to believe... but you could argue that that team had a number of players who'd be the best defenders on a championship team. So while their offensive rizz was good but not great, their defensive rizz was elite.

True. But prior to them being champs they were viewed as a bunch of roleplayers.

I can't belive even today that they had #2 pick or so in that draft right after their championship and they drafted Darko.

Milicic of course.

They missed the following:
3 DEN Carmelo Anthony Syracuse
4 TOR Chris Bosh Georgia Tech
5 MIA Dwyane Wade Marquette

[TheGeneral99]

Detroit Pistons early 2000s.

Yes, that's what I want to believe... but you could argue that that team had a number of players who'd be the best defenders on a championship team. So while their offensive rizz was good but not great, their defensive rizz was elite.

True. But prior to them being champs they were viewed as a bunch of roleplayers.

I can't belive even today that they had #2 pick or so in that draft right after their championship and they drafted Darko.

Milicic of course.

They missed the following:
3 DEN Carmelo Anthony Syracuse
4 TOR Chris Bosh Georgia Tech
5 MIA Dwyane Wade Marquette

Not necessarily accurate. The Pistons were already a 50 win team in the 2001-2002 season, and that was before they had Billups, Rasheed, Prince or Rip Hamilton.

Ben Wallace was the DPOY already in 2002, an all-star and all-NBA player...so they had him as a cornerstone, he was not a role player.

Rip Hamilton was a 20ppg scorer in Washington, was a very good 3 point shooter, and already considered one of the best mid-range scorers in the game in 2002, the year before he joined Detroit. Not a role player.

They traded for Rasheed in 2003 who was already an 2 time all-star with Portland. Not a role player.

Obviously Billups had a Lowry type career were he only took off once he joined the Pistons. Nobody expected that.

Prince was the guy that capped it off as he was a really nice young guy they drafted.

And yes, the Pistons royally screwed up by missing on 3 future all-stars in the 2003 draft, which probably would have made them a dynasty in the mid-2000s. Had they drafted Melo or Wade, I think the Pistons win at least 2 more championships between 2005 and 2009.

[vini_vidi_vici]

[tsherkin]

Rip Hamilton was a 20ppg scorer in Washington, was a very good 3 point shooter,

So, that isn't quite how that happened.

He was an extremely low-volume 3pt shooter, so his percentages meant only so much, and the one year with them he took more than 1.1 3PA/g, he shot under 28% from 3. Beyond that, he was a 92, 98 and 98 TS+ scorer on Washington, so that 20 ppg meant only so much. Raw plus-minus has him pretty negative in Washington, and EPM has him as like an RJ Barrett-level offensive force pretty much until 06. Which matches, because the Pistons were a +0.5, -0.9 and -0.5 offense over his first three seasons with Detroit. It wasn't until 06 that they really got going on O. Prior to that, they were a defensive grinder squad who played a heavy possession-control game. The basketball version of the same era's New Jersey Devils. And apart from 08, their defense tailed off as their offense improved.

Rip had a little more impact than his raw efficiency indicated, of course, because he was such a relentless off-ball guy. Still, he wasn't really a stunner. He was a decent second-option kind of guy, hovering around +1% rTS for about half a decade or so for the Pistons from 03-08, while averaging a shade under 19 ppg.

But he also shot 26.9, 26.5 and 30.5% from 3 over his first three seasons with them, including in the title season. His 3pt shooting matured a little more thereafter, but that's mainly because he took 52% of them from the corners with the Pistons.

They traded for Rasheed in 2003 who was already an 2 time all-star with Portland. Not a role player.

Here, I think the point is that he functioned as a roleplayer for them. Sheed was a 14/7/2 guy for the title team, and about a 13/7/2 guy on his career with the Pistons. He was a very good post defender who boxed out well, and he functioned as a semi-valuable big-man spacer.

[billy_hoyle]

Rip Hamilton was a 20ppg scorer in Washington, was a very good 3 point shooter,

So, that isn't quite how that happened.

He was an extremely low-volume 3pt shooter, so his percentages meant only so much, and the one year with them he took more than 1.1 3PA/g, he shot under 28% from 3. Beyond that, he was a 92, 98 and 98 TS+ scorer on Washington, so that 20 ppg meant only so much. Raw plus-minus has him pretty negative in Washington, and EPM has him as like an RJ Barrett-level offensive force pretty much until 06. Which matches, because the Pistons were a +0.5, -0.9 and -0.5 offense over his first three seasons with Detroit. It wasn't until 06 that they really got going on O. Prior to that, they were a defensive grinder squad who played a heavy possession-control game. The basketball version of the same era's New Jersey Devils. And apart from 08, their defense tailed off as their offense improved.

Rip had a little more impact than his raw efficiency indicated, of course, because he was such a relentless off-ball guy. Still, he wasn't really a stunner. He was a decent second-option kind of guy, hovering around +1% rTS for about half a decade or so for the Pistons from 03-08, while averaging a shade under 19 ppg.

But he also shot 26.9, 26.5 and 30.5% from 3 over his first three seasons with them, including in the title season. His 3pt shooting matured a little more thereafter, but that's mainly because he took 52% of them from the corners with the Pistons.

They traded for Rasheed in 2003 who was already an 2 time all-star with Portland. Not a role player.

Here, I think the point is that he functioned as a roleplayer for them. Sheed was a 14/7/2 guy for the title team, and about a 13/7/2 guy on his career with the Pistons. He was a very good post defender who boxed out well, and he functioned as a semi-valuable big-man spacer.

You over simplify things.

The Pistons didn't have a team of high end role players. They had multiple all-stars that sacrificed bigger numbers for the greater good (Rip, Billups and Sheed).

Sheed and Billups in particular were the 2nd and 3rd picks in their drafts (sound familiar... Ingram and RJ).

They had the ability to function as more than just 2 dimensional players role players. They could pop off as a more dynamic player depending on the matchup. That's what made them special. Sheed could post up a bit, dribble drive a bit and shoot from outside. While also being a tough defender. He was multi-dimensional.

That sorta reminds me of Barnes tbh.

That's memory of watching that team play.

[tsherkin]

You over simplify things.

The Pistons didn't have a team of high end role players. They had multiple all-stars that sacrificed bigger numbers for the greater good (Rip, Billups and Sheed).

Sheed and Billups in particular were the 2nd and 3rd picks in their drafts (sound familiar... Ingram and RJ).

What they were in years prior is less relevant to what they were for the team. Rasheed didn't play like a star, he played like a roleplayer. And I didn't say anything about Billups at all, nor did I describe Detroit as a team of nothing but "high end role players."

I spoke specifically about Rip and Sheed, and addressed specific comments made about them.

The Pistons were not a star-studded lineup. They had excellent depth, excellent veteran support, they had a dominant star defensive center, and they had Billups doing great stuff. And Sheed was very good inside that system.

It's possible we have a different definition of "roleplayer," so I don't want to speak past you, but yeah, Sheed was there to fill a role. He wasn't there as a focal scorer and he fit into the flow of the team offense as an older veteran who was learning how to be a stretch 4 in a fashion not dissimilar to Clifford Robinson or Sam Perkins. They had a mediocre distributed offense, and an all-time great defense in 04. Later, they pivoted into a team which was very successful on offense and still pretty good on D, and so they had a nice run.

But that doesn't really change any of what I said about Rip or Sheed.

Rip didn't sacrifice anything, he was shooting and scoring in a very similar fashion to what he'd done in Washington. That's in part because he was an off-ball, C+S guy who was very easy to hit with basic passes to get his shots up (that's a compliment, in case that's unclear). And Sheed had never been interested in high-volume scoring to begin with. It's part of what limited him in Portland in the first place. And Billups got all the shots he asked for at at some stage of that offense because he was still coming up after being a journeyman trying to find his way.

[PushDaRock]

Gordon won't be a 20 ppg scorer for long, only there right now because of his 50 point effort.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[billy_hoyle]

You over simplify things.

The Pistons didn't have a team of high end role players. They had multiple all-stars that sacrificed bigger numbers for the greater good (Rip, Billups and Sheed).

Sheed and Billups in particular were the 2nd and 3rd picks in their drafts (sound familiar... Ingram and RJ).

What they were in years prior is less relevant to what they were for the team. Rasheed didn't play like a star, he played like a roleplayer. And I didn't say anything about Billups at all, nor did I describe Detroit as a team of nothing but "high end role players."

I spoke specifically about Rip and Sheed, and addressed specific comments made about them.

The Pistons were not a star-studded lineup. They had excellent depth, excellent veteran support, they had a dominant star defensive center, and they had Billups doing great stuff. And Sheed was very good inside that system.

It's possible we have a different definition of "roleplayer," so I don't want to speak past you, but yeah, Sheed was there to fill a role. He wasn't there as a focal scorer and he fit into the flow of the team offense as an older veteran who was learning how to be a stretch 4 in a fashion not dissimilar to Clifford Robinson or Sam Perkins. They had a mediocre distributed offense, and an all-time great defense in 04. Later, they pivoted into a team which was very successful on offense and still pretty good on D, and so they had a nice run.

But that doesn't really change any of what I said about Rip or Sheed.

Rip didn't sacrifice anything, he was shooting and scoring in a very similar fashion to what he'd done in Washington. That's in part because he was an off-ball, C+S guy who was very easy to hit with basic passes to get his shots up (that's a compliment, in case that's unclear). And Sheed had never been interested in high-volume scoring to begin with. It's part of what limited him in Portland in the first place. And Billups got all the shots he asked for at at some stage of that offense because he was still coming up after being a journeyman trying to find his way.

Written like a person who over analyses the box scores.

Having watched thousands of basketball games, the 2000's pistons could attack you in everyway, with + defenders at 4 positions. They're pretty unique in the context of the last 30 years of NBA ball.

Rip sacrificed volume. Volume gets you accolades. This was the Iverson/Kobe era afterall, no one fixated on efficiency.

[tsherkin]

Written like a person who over analyses the box scores.

That's certainly one interpretation, though of course I watched a lot of Detroit and Portland in that period of time, regardless.

the 2000's pistons could attack you in everyway, with + defenders at 4 positions. They're pretty unique in the context of the last 30 years of NBA ball.

I mean, sure, they did different things. That wasn't really the point. They weren't a particularly GOOD offensive team until 2006, though. They relied on defense and rebounding more than they did quality of offense. That's not really a debatable issue, that's what happened. 03-04 was about the ugliest season in the history of the league, and even by that standard, they weren't very good. They weren't horrible, but they weren't particularly good at making shots, but they could hit the offensive boards. And Billups was pretty good for them, certainly.

Rip sacrificed volume. Volume gets you accolades. This was the Iverson/Kobe era afterall, no one fixated on efficiency.

Again, he scored a similar amount of volume in Detroit as he did in Washington, and he didn't really have the chops to support a lot more volume.

Also, putting Kobe in that sentence doesn't make sense. He WAS an efficient player. His reputation is that he was an inefficient chucker, but that is directly inaccurate. He shot a lot, and he was sometimes frustrating with his shot selection and how he interacted with Shaq, and he struggled come the Finals, but he was like a +3% rTS guy for a decade in the RS and was generally a high-end scorer. Iverson was a separate story, but even he had some stronger seasons, especially as his shooting volume came down.

Rip didn't sacrifice anything. He played his game. His was a time-consuming game that didn't lend itself to volume, especially because he swung so wildly in his ability to draw fouls and actually get to the rim. He worked his defender pretty well with all his movement, and he was a quality secondary option kind of guy, but he was never the guy who was going to get you mid/high twenties, that wasn't his game. The idea that he was sacrificing volume just isn't accurate.

Anyway, this is off-topic for the thread, so let's get ourselves back on track.

This game isn't a hot one for positivity, but I'll say that I'm looking forward to the game that follows to see how they bounce back.

[Merit]

I just love how distinct each guy's offensive game is. There's no stepping on each other's toes their skillsets all take advantage of different matchups and defenses.

This is why I’m optimistic. All we gotta add is better POA defense and some shooting. IQ - you hearing me?

Some improved POA defense would be nice. We could use a little more rebounding in general (especially on the offensive end), too. We're 5th in the NBA in 3P% right now, and Quick's been shooting it well enough for several games. Obviously, Shead and Scottie, Battle and CMB will all regress a little, so Quick's shooting will be that much more important as the season wears on, for sure.

Feeling better after today’s game.

[tsherkin]

Feeling better after today’s game.

He had a good night, and we got the win. I think that made most people happy. This is what we were talking about, right? The other guys had a rougher night and IQ picked it up.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Average is in reach, sure. But he was talking about us becoming a league-topping defense. I don't see that happening.

We could be better than we are now, and we don't NEED to be the best D in the league in order to do very well as a team, but that's a whole separate thing.

If you want to play the semantics game about #1 rather than just top 5 or whatever, that's up to you, but the Raps are currently 10th in drtg in the league (showing how quick the sample sizes of the first couple games can swing) and have been trending up as they get used to playing with each other. And they have some room to grow there as CMB gets more acclimated and Jak gets healthier.

They could swing back down a bit again and I think it's likely we're seeing a top 6-10 defense but I don't think top 5 is out of reach just yet. Despite their early season offensive showing their defense is suddenly better than their offense for the season and this team seems pretty good.