Post-game: Raptors pull off an impressive comeback win

[Son Goku 25]

Only team in the east I'd say we matchup poorly with is CLE

Siakam used to give Allen and Mobley fits, ever since he left they've dominatied us, I'm interested to see how we fare against them with Ingram

Also don't forget OG locking down Mitchell.

[Jerry Lucas]

Because win shares are literally derived from the real win totals.

BRef's calculations aren't as simple as just being "derived from real win totals." It's more so derived from Bill James' original system with modifications so that 1 win doesn't equal 3 Win Shares (like James' system).

You can take a look for yourself:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

BRef even outright criticizes how Bill James' original system was also "directly proportional" to the real win totals.

Yeah but 1 win equals 1 win share. That's why it correlates.

False lol, someone definitely didn't read the link I posted that explains how BRef calculates it.

If 1 win equals 1 win share, then the Raptors would have exactly 5 win shares right now. Under Bill James' old system though (if roughly applied to basketball), the Raptors would have exactly 15 win shares right now, because 1 win equals 3 win shares for his system.

[Appostis]

The Facebook troll are so predictable...

"max contract *face Palm*" "Difficult to watch Barnes play "

**** When did this fanbase gain so many village idiots? Was it just being a playoff team for a decade?

They arent wrong, Barnes wasnt good compared to the others. 2nd Half was better, like for most.

Good thing the game has 4 quarters amirte. Or do you just stop watching at halftime?

[everdiso]

BRef's calculations aren't as simple as just being "derived from real win totals." It's more so derived from Bill James' original system with modifications so that 1 win doesn't equal 3 Win Shares (like James' system).

You can take a look for yourself:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

BRef even outright criticizes how Bill James' original system was also "directly proportional" to the real win totals.

Yeah but 1 win equals 1 win share. That's why it correlates.

False lol, someone definitely didn't read the link I posted that explains how BRef calculates it.

If 1 win equals 1 win share, then the Raptors would have exactly 5 win shares right now. Under Bill James' old system though, the Raptors would have exactly 15 win shares right now, because 1 win equals 3 win shares for his system.

From your link:

"In James's system, one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share."


Currently, the Raps are listed with 5.2 win shares as a team on their bref page.

[Jerry Lucas]

Yeah but 1 win equals 1 win share. That's why it correlates.

False lol, someone definitely didn't read the link I posted that explains how BRef calculates it.

If 1 win equals 1 win share, then the Raptors would have exactly 5 win shares right now. Under Bill James' old system though, the Raptors would have exactly 15 win shares right now, because 1 win equals 3 win shares for his system.

From your link:

"In James's system, one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share."


Currently, the Raps are listed with 5.2 win shares as a team on their bref page.

Keep reading. What was meant was "roughly equivalent."

James made team Win Shares directly proportional to team wins. In his system, a baseball team that wins 80 games will have exactly 240 Win Shares, a baseball team that wins 90 games will have exactly 270 Win Shares, etc. In my system, a basketball team that wins 50 games will have about 50 Win Shares, give or take.

Again, if 1 win was actually equivalent to 1 win share, the Raptors would have 5 win shares right now, not 5.2

[ATLTimekeeper]

I don't really see much value in WS, which overrates finishers. Especially at the C position. We all know if we were starting a franchise not one team is taking Jarrett Allen or Isaiah Hartenstein with their first pick.

[everdiso]

False lol, someone definitely didn't read the link I posted that explains how BRef calculates it.

If 1 win equals 1 win share, then the Raptors would have exactly 5 win shares right now. Under Bill James' old system though, the Raptors would have exactly 15 win shares right now, because 1 win equals 3 win shares for his system.

From your link:

"In James's system, one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share."


Currently, the Raps are listed with 5.2 win shares as a team on their bref page.

Keep reading. What was meant was "roughly equivalent."

James made team Win Shares directly proportional to team wins. In his system, a baseball team that wins 80 games will have exactly 240 Win Shares, a baseball team that wins 90 games will have exactly 270 Win Shares, etc. In my system, a basketball team that wins 50 games will have about 50 Win Shares, give or take.

Again, if 1 win was actually equivalent to 1 win share, the Raptors would have 5 win shares right now, not 5.2

"In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.""

[Jerry Lucas]

From your link:

"In James's system, one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share."


Currently, the Raps are listed with 5.2 win shares as a team on their bref page.

Keep reading. What was meant was "roughly equivalent."

James made team Win Shares directly proportional to team wins. In his system, a baseball team that wins 80 games will have exactly 240 Win Shares, a baseball team that wins 90 games will have exactly 270 Win Shares, etc. In my system, a basketball team that wins 50 games will have about 50 Win Shares, give or take.

Again, if 1 win was actually equivalent to 1 win share, the Raptors would have 5 win shares right now, not 5.2

"In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.""

You clearly lack reading comprehension and don't know what the word "equivalent" means. Do the Raptors have exactly 5 win shares?

[everdiso]

Keep reading. What was meant was "roughly equivalent."



Again, if 1 win was actually equivalent to 1 win share, the Raptors would have 5 win shares right now, not 5.2

"In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.""

You clearly lack reading comprehension and don't know what the word "equivalent" means. Do the Raptors have exactly 5 win shares?

you asked why win shares correlates so closely with wins.

I told you.

you're welcome.

[HumbleRen]

Scottie was 5/16 and the only guy on the team to have a negative +/-. He was also our best player tonight by a decent margin.

Didn’t see that. He was a no show for 3 quarters, his plus/minus accurately shows that.

Thankfully the bench and Ingram kept us afloat until Scottie decided to show energy.

There are two sides of the court and Scottie was just fine defensively the whole game. Not perfect, but solid. People just look at Ingram's 20 points and don't consider his poor effeciency. He missed a bunch of open threes and his defense was meh.

So yeah, Scottie wasn't dominating out there, but when we needed a run in the 4th, he was the guy spearheading it. The 9-0 run that got us our first lead in the 4th happened when Ingram was on the bench. Darko surrounded SB with a bunch of shooters and opened everything up. Credit to Dick and IQ for making those threes.

Even if he was inefficient it was because everyone else was either passive or unable to get a shot off. BI doesn’t have to shoot grenades if Scottie doesn’t go an entire half without looking at the rim.

Kudos to him for not quitting but I’m not going to glaze him for that. A max player should show urgency from the opening whistle.

[YogurtProducer]

Keep reading. What was meant was "roughly equivalent."



Again, if 1 win was actually equivalent to 1 win share, the Raptors would have 5 win shares right now, not 5.2

"In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.""

You clearly lack reading comprehension and don't know what the word "equivalent" means. Do the Raptors have exactly 5 win shares?

You’re gonna argue cause it’s 5.2 instead of 5?

It’s designed to be close to the win total. If we win tonight by 1 point it’ll be 6ish, if we lose by 1 point it’ll be 5ish.

Point being… using win shares to say player a > player b is foolish.

[Jerry Lucas]

"In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.""

You clearly lack reading comprehension and don't know what the word "equivalent" means. Do the Raptors have exactly 5 win shares?

You’re gonna argue cause it’s 5.2 instead of 5?

It’s designed to be close to the win total. If we win tonight by 1 point it’ll be 6ish, if we lose by 1 point it’ll be 5ish.

Point being… using win shares to say player a > player b is foolish.

You at least getting that it's not equivalent by acknowledging that it's "close to." Everdiso thinks it's 1 for 1 exactly.

Also you were wrong about your pre-game rounding estimates for after the game (obviously), as the Raptors lost by more than 1 point, yet their win share total now rounds up to 6 instead of down to 5 like you said.

Tell you what, I'll keep what you consider to be "foolish" win share takes out of the game and post-game threads, if you keep your foolish draft takes out of the draft threads going forward. All you say when you pop in to those threads from time to time is just repeating how you think prospect tracking is pointless because of how many busts there are every year.

[YogurtProducer]

You clearly lack reading comprehension and don't know what the word "equivalent" means. Do the Raptors have exactly 5 win shares?

You’re gonna argue cause it’s 5.2 instead of 5?

It’s designed to be close to the win total. If we win tonight by 1 point it’ll be 6ish, if we lose by 1 point it’ll be 5ish.

Point being… using win shares to say player a > player b is foolish.

You at least getting that it's not equivalent by acknowledging that it's "close to." Everdiso thinks it's 1 for 1 exactly.

Also you were wrong about your pre-game rounding estimates for after the game (obviously), as the Raptors lost by more than 1 point, yet their win share total now rounds up to 6 instead of down to 5 like you said.

Tell you what, I'll keep what you consider to be "foolish" win share takes out of the game and post-game threads, if you keep your foolish draft takes out of the draft threads going forward. All you say when you pop in to those threads from time to time is just repeating how you think prospect tracking is pointless because of how many busts there are every year.

Who cares? You’re getting so lost in the specifics that you’re missing the point anyone is trying to make.

I don’t care about the win shares in the game thread. It’s fun enough to track - I’m just saying saying one player has played better than another due to win shares is a flawed approach - that’s all.

And I literally don’t do that but ok bud